MiG-21 FL fighter jets to fly into history on Wednesday

p2prada

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But sir according to Wiki Rafael has speed of 1.8 Mach.
Those are mostly standard figures. Rafale is capable of going faster.

I say we should better make a new plane from MiG 21 structure. MiG 21's Mach 2 capable engine is superb. MiG 21's faults are short range 1210 km, low pay load 2 500 kg bomb, 2 or 4 AAMs and a nose mounted 23 mm gun with 80 rounds.

The new plane will have engine that MiG 21 uses, nose mounted 23 mm gun removed, it would replaced by 2 30 mm guns under wings with at least 125 rounds, 2 500 kg bomb or 4 250 kg bomb or 1 anti-ship missiles plus AAM plus fuel ability increased for longer range.

Best example is perhaps Chinese J 7 a major modification of Soviet MiG 21 and J 7 is better than MiG 21 in many aspects. This new plane will be cheap, we need cheap Mach 2 capable interceptor.
We should have done that a long time ago, like the Chinese did. We no longer have the need for it. Our immediate priorities are enough for interception along with FGFA.
 

fulcrum

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Rafale's speed is indeed Mach 1.8 as given in Dassault's official site itself. It certainly cannot do more than that, else the frenchies would be trumpeting that all over the place to say they can match the Eurofigher in that regard. MKI's max speed is only Mach 1.8 ~ 1.9.

Speed is important because of interception. While this is very important in war, Speed is extremely important in peacetime perhaps more than any other capability of a fighter. This is because during peacetime a fighter has to visually ID the intruder and give them verbal warning before shooting it down if it doesn't obey. For this it has to take-off, climb fast, reach its max speed, get to the intruder's co-ordinates fast all in a few minutes before the intruder slips back into its airspace. So Timing and Speed are of THE essence here. During peace time one does not fire BVR missiles at any object which slips across the border. Visual identification is a international practice, since the intruder could very well be a lost cessna or any other non-military aircraft. In these circumstances, Speed is THE crucial factor since it has to get to the intruder's location fast. The Atlantic shoortdown was only possible because of the MiG-21s scramble-intercept capability. But not to worry, even after the 55 odd MiG-21FLs were retired a few days back which were primarily tasked with fighter training and pilot conversion duties and not active frontline squadrons, IAF still has 90 odd MiG-21M/MFs as primary ground attack and secondary air-intercept duties, around 50 MiG-21Bis as primary air-intercept and secondary ground attack, and another 105 MiG-21 Bisons with air-intercept, Dogfighting, Ground attack.. quasi multirole capability. That's still about 250 MiG-21s, making it still the largest type in the IAF inventory!

The fastest plane in the IAF inventory after the retirement of the MiG-25s are the MiG-29s with Mach 2.3, followed closely by the Mirage at Mach 2.2.
 
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rock127

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Good... India's strength decreases and some pilots would not get killed in flying coffin.

Rafale would come in 2050 and LCA would come in 2075.
 

Soumya1989

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htttp://plus.newindianexpress.com/wp-content/blogs.dir/1/files/mig_tejas/mig21_pti.jpg
The iconic MiG-21 FL -- a variant in the MiG-21 series of fighter aircraft -- that heralded the dawn of the supersonic jet era for the Indian Air Force half a century ago, Wednesday passed into military aviation history at an emotional fly past and parade at an air base here. (PTI Photo)

htttp://plus.newindianexpress.com/wp-content/blogs.dir/1/files/mig_tejas/mig21.jpg
Two pairs of MiG-21 FLs took off with a deafening roar from the runway of the Kalaikunda air base at 9.45 a.m. for one last time, ending a 50-year-long association with the IAF. (PTI Photo)

htttp://plus.newindianexpress.com/wp-content/blogs.dir/1/files/mig_tejas/mig21_pti1.jpg
Kalaikunda: Four MiG-21 FL aircraft flying for the one last time during the 'phasing out ceremony' at the Kalaikunda Air Force Station in Midnapore district. (PTI Photo)

I couldn't able to post links. So just added another t in http.
 

fulcrum

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@fulcrum

The Rafale can move at speeds of mach 2.

Dassault-Aviation Rafale M [in french]


Whether this is consistently used depends on the user.
1987? Must be a prototype testing. Its a common practice to modify the prototype aircraft to it's absolute limits and study the effect of it on the airframe and such and appropriately find the best zone without compromising other qualities. The manufacturer has notified its max speed is Mach 1.8 in the final production version and it is wise to follow that. Even the MiG-21 achieved a maximum speed of Mach 2.35 during prototype testing, more than the MiG-29! But we don't say its max speed is 2.35 now do we? It's The production version of the MiG-21 has a speed of Mach 2.1 and it stays that way. Rafale is not a fast jet, and we have to live with that.
 
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p2prada

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1987? Must be a prototype testing. Its a common practice to modify the prototype aircraft to it's absolute limits and study the effect of it on the airframe and such and appropriately find the best zone without compromising other qualities. The manufacturer has notified its max speed is Mach 1.8 in the final production version and it is wise to follow that. Even the MiG-21 achieved a maximum speed of Mach 2.35 during prototype testing, more than the MiG-29! But we don't say its max speed is 2.35 now do we? It's The production version of the MiG-21 has a speed of Mach 2.1 and it stays that way. Rafale is not a fast jet, and we have to live with that.
Yes, the operational max speed is restricted at mach 1.8. So, Rafale will not cross mach 1.8 during peace time, but during war, Rafale can achieve mach 2 if the need for it provides a tactical advantage. The basic airframe itself is capable of achieving mach 2 and the prototype testing only demonstrates that. This is the case with every jet, not just Rafale.

It's like how AoA is restricted by software even if the aircraft can achieve more. It doesn't mean the aircraft cannot cross restrictions.

For peace time operations, Rafale has a soft limit of 8G while aircraft itself can operate up to 11G within FCS limits during wartime.
 

fulcrum

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Yes, the operational max speed is restricted at mach 1.8. So, Rafale will not cross mach 1.8 during peace time, but during war, Rafale can achieve mach 2 if the need for it provides a tactical advantage. The basic airframe itself is capable of achieving mach 2 and the prototype testing only demonstrates that. This is the case with every jet, not just Rafale.

It's like how AoA is restricted by software even if the aircraft can achieve more. It doesn't mean the aircraft cannot cross restrictions.

For peace time operations, Rafale has a soft limit of 8G while aircraft itself can operate up to 11G within FCS limits during wartime.
First we don't know if the prototype tested has the same aerodynamic laws as the production model, as it could have been very well changed during the course of development. Or the prototype could have been modified just for that test alone. These 2 possibilities exist. In any case, you are merely speculating that it is "wartime speed" based on some prototype test way back in 1987. Just provide an official link which says that Production Rafale can exceed mach 2 without adverse effects on itself and Mach 1.8 is merely "peacetime speed".
 

p2prada

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First we don't know if the prototype tested has the same aerodynamic laws as the production model, as it could have been very well changed during the course of development. Or the prototype could have been modified just for that test alone. These 2 possibilities exist.
The prototype that achieved mach 2 was Rafale A. It was a Rafale demonstrator.

The French used very few prototypes for Rafale development, it isn't like US with a dozen or more prototypes and dozens of pre-production models.

They built just 4 prototypes, M01, M02, C01, B01. So, there is no real scope for experimental modifications that is different from pre-production models.

In any case, you are merely speculating that it is "wartime speed" based on some prototype test way back in 1987. Just provide an official link which says that Production Rafale can exceed mach 2 without adverse effects on itself and Mach 1.8 is merely "peacetime speed".
I remember seeing reports in French about mach 2, but I can't find and present those because of the language.

Anyway, it is listed as 2130 Km/hr, that's mach 2 at 1062Km/hr at heights above 11Km and below ceiling height of aircraft.
 

Defcon 1

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I remember seeing reports in French about mach 2, but I can't find and present those because of the language.

Anyway, it is listed as 2130 Km/hr, that's mach 2 at 1062Km/hr at heights above 11Km and below ceiling height of aircraft.
We don't know 2130 km/hr is at which altitude. So this fact doesn't support your claim.
 

fulcrum

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The prototype that achieved mach 2 was Rafale A. It was a Rafale demonstrator.

The French used very few prototypes for Rafale development, it isn't like US with a dozen or more prototypes and dozens of pre-production models.

They built just 4 prototypes, M01, M02, C01, B01. So, there is no real scope for experimental modifications that is different from pre-production models.



I remember seeing reports in French about mach 2, but I can't find and present those because of the language.

Anyway, it is listed as 2130 Km/hr, that's mach 2 at 1062Km/hr at heights above 11Km and below ceiling height of aircraft.
We don't know for sure whether modifications were done for the high speed test. Or whether after the high speed test it became apparent that the airfcraft became unstable at that speeds hence Dassault reduced the safe speed to Mach 1.8. As you can see we can go on speculating either way, unless you find that link.
 

shiphone

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it's the ACX TD project(not PT)--Rafale A achieved the M2 on 4th Mar 1987 in her 93rd test flight...
at that time Rafale A was powered by Two F-404-GE-400



(the first M88 was fitted on this jet after the date of 12th Jul 1989)...'M88' Logo on the tail


---------------------------------
we might have the reason to say the TD got this record with lighter weight and a little more powerful engines...
the FCS limits the Rafale SPs to 1.8M ...but some allowance might be there....
 

p2prada

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Regardless, the listed max speed at high altitude is 2130 Km/hr or mach 2.

Operational speed is 1912 Km/hr, that's mach 1.8.

The listed max speed at low altitude is 1390 Km/hr or mach 1.13.

There should be increased wear and tear for Rafale at mach 2 than at mach 1.8, but that may be acceptable during wartime when a tactical advantage is needed.

Dassault's website has disinformation. They list 750 knots as mach 1.8 and that doesn't make any sense.
Specifications and performance data - Dassault Aviation

1390 Km/hr is 750 Knots. Or some idiot put it up and nobody corrected it.
 

p2prada

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@Drsomnath999

Do you have any French sources that list Rafale as mach 2?
 
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p2prada

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With the level of competition they have with Eurofighter, and with Eurofighter having a greater top speed, Dassault would never pass the opportunity of highlighting their aircraft's capability even if it means operating at that speed may result in a reduction of airframe life, or some other negative effects which doesn't threaten the very aircraft itself in that Mach 2.0 speed regime.
I am pretty sure that when an air force requires information, they send an RFI directly to the manufacturer instead of checking their website.

Btw, you are looking for too many details for something not so very important.

We won't really know whether safety margins will be crossed, but we do know that the aircraft can achieve mach 2 speed.

Every air force places operational restrictions on aircraft. Speed is no different.
 

fulcrum

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Yes, every airforce may or maynot place such restrictions, not the seller who would put out his best figures out and hide all the ifs and buts in the terms and condition's in minute fine print. If the Mach 2.0 figure is omitted by Dassault itself it does say that figure is not a practical figure.

Yea, they do speak directly to Dassault rather than see their website, but unlike our or other desi defence industries which don't know the meaning of public relations, generally the west takes their public face very very seriously. If there is a news report or a quick documentary made on advanced fighters and if Rafale is shown less than what it can do then it is not something which goes unnoticed by Dassault's public relations manager or some other guy at the PR wing. Its their job afterall, unlike the sarkari jobs at HAL or DRDO.

This is their latest from June 2013 - Press Information for the journalists for the Paris Airshow - http://www.dassault-aviation.com/wp-content/blogs.dir/2/files/2013/04/4-Defense.zip

I don't think they are that lethargic that they wont even update their figures for their very own country's airshow where Rafale is the star attraction.

And here is the French Air Force Website for added reference - Chasse
With even more detail, down to the last millimeter for the dimensions(Dassault rounded their figures). Even they say the same thing.
 
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