Man threatens to blow up plane if passengers do not accept islam

[LurkerBaba]

Yeah, you're right. But it is used more often along the lines of "People don't understand the Koran....", "Koran denounces violence as it says in Sura 5:32..." etc.
But you're right, it is used by both sides. I'm just trying to induce equilibrium.

Another myth on the same lines:

"Islam is peaceful, since in Arabic the word 'Islam' means peace itself"

Wrong, the term Islam means submission not peace

 

[Razor]

Ans Pmaitra's stand? Seriously? He is a fellow who was commenting on how it was a big loss for India that USSR fell because that left India vulnerable to Islamic fundamentalism from the Central Asian Republics(Which means he acknowledged the Islamic fundamentalism as real and as a very big threat) and here he is trying to defend it..

From a cursory reading of the posts, I felt Pmaitra was trying to expound the fact that Islam in the past was slightly more tolerant (the reasons for which are many) as compared to now and as compared to the other major Abrahamic religion of that time. I did not feel he was trying to defend Islamic fundamentalism.

 

[maomao]

Here are some facts for secularists who would like to ignore past and present; and for the sane to understand from where the murderous and plundering nature of islam originates:

The Quran:

Quran (2:191-193) - "And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution [of Muslims] is worse than slaughter [of non-believers]... but if they desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful. And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah." The historical context of this passage is not defensive warfare, since Muhammad and his Muslims had just relocated to Medina and were not under attack by their Meccan adversaries. In fact, the verses urge offensive warfare, in that Muslims are to drive Meccans out of their own city (which they later did). The use of the word "persecution" by some Muslim translators is thus disingenuous (the actual Muslim words for persecution - "idtihad" - and oppression - a variation of "z-l-m" - do not appear in the verse). The actual Arabic comes from "fitna" which can mean disbelief, or the disorder that results from unbelief or temptation. Taken as a whole, the context makes clear that violence is being authorized until "religion is for Allah" - ie. unbelievers desist in their unbelief.

Quran (2:244) - "Then fight in the cause of Allah, and know that Allah Heareth and knoweth all things."

Quran (2:216) - "Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not." Not only does this verse establish that violence can be virtuous, but it also contradicts the myth that fighting is intended only in self-defense, since the audience was obviously not under attack at the time. From the Hadith, we know that this verse was narrated at a time that Muhammad was actually trying to motivate his people into raiding merchant caravans for loot.

Quran (3:56) - "As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help."

Quran (3:151) - "Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority". This speaks directly of polytheists, yet it also includes Christians, since they believe in the Trinity (ie. what Muhammad incorrectly believed to be 'joining companions to Allah').

Quran (4:74) - "Let those fight in the way of Allah who sell the life of this world for the other. Whoso fighteth in the way of Allah, be he slain or be he victorious, on him We shall bestow a vast reward." The martyrs of Islam are unlike the early Christians, led meekly to the slaughter. These Muslims are killed in battle, as they attempt to inflict death and destruction for the cause of Allah. Here is the theological basis for today's suicide bombers.

Quran (4:76) - "Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah"¦"

Quran (4:89) - "They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks."

Quran (4:95) - "Not equal are those believers who sit (at home) and receive no hurt, and those who strive and fight in the cause of Allah with their goods and their persons. Allah hath granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight with their goods and persons than to those who sit (at home). Unto all (in Faith) Hath Allah promised good: But those who strive and fight Hath He distinguished above those who sit (at home) by a special reward,-" This passage criticizes "peaceful" Muslims who do not join in the violence, letting them know that they are less worthy in Allah's eyes. It also demolishes the modern myth that "Jihad" doesn't mean holy war in the Quran, but rather a spiritual struggle. Not only is the Arabic word used in this passage, but it is clearly not referring to anything spiritual, since the physically disabled are given exemption. (The Hadith reveals the context of the passage to be in response to a blind man's protest that he is unable to engage in Jihad and this is reflected in other translations of the verse).

Quran (4:104) - "And be not weak hearted in pursuit of the enemy; if you suffer pain, then surely they (too) suffer pain as you suffer pain..." Is pursuing an injured and retreating enemy really an act of self-defense?

Quran (5:33) - "The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement"

Quran (8:12) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them" No reasonable person would interpret this to mean a spiritual struggle.

Quran (8:15) - "O ye who believe! When ye meet those who disbelieve in battle, turn not your backs to them. (16)Whoso on that day turneth his back to them, unless maneuvering for battle or intent to join a company, he truly hath incurred wrath from Allah, and his habitation will be hell, a hapless journey's end."

Quran (8:39) - "And fight with them until there is no more fitna (disorder, unbelief) and religion should be only for Allah" Some translations interpret "fitna" as "persecution", but the traditional understanding of this word is not supported by the historical context (See notes for 2:293, also). The Meccans were simply refusing Muhammad access to their city during Haj. Other Muslims were allowed to travel there - just not as an armed group, since Muhammad had declared war on Mecca prior to his eviction. The Meccans were also acting in defense of their religion, since it was Muhammad's intention to destroy their idols and establish Islam by force (which he later did). Hence the critical part of this verse is to fight until "religion is only for Allah", meaning that the true justification of violence was the unbelief of the opposition. According to the Sira (Ibn Ishaq/Hisham 324) Muhammad further explains that "Allah must have no rivals."

Quran (8:57) - "If thou comest on them in the war, deal with them so as to strike fear in those who are behind them, that haply they may remember."

Quran (8:59-60) - "And let not those who disbelieve suppose that they can outstrip (Allah's Purpose). Lo! they cannot escape. Make ready for them all thou canst of (armed) force and of horses tethered, that thereby ye may dismay the enemy of Allah and your enemy."

Quran (8:65) - "O Prophet, exhort the believers to fight..."

Quran (9:5) - "So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them." According to this verse, the best way of staying safe from Muslim violence is to convert to Islam. Prayer (salat) and the poor tax (zakat) are among the religion's Five Pillars.

Quran (9:14) - "Fight them, Allah will punish them by your hands and bring them to disgrace..."

Quran (9:20) - "Those who believe, and have left their homes and striven with their wealth and their lives in Allah's way are of much greater worth in Allah's sight. These are they who are triumphant." The "striving" spoken of here is Jihad (Arabic).

Quran (9:29) - "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued." "People of the Book" refers to Christians and Jews. This was one of the final "revelations" from Allah and it set in motion the tenacious military expansion, in which Muhammad's companions managed to conquer two-thirds of the Christian world in the next 100 years. Islam is intended to dominate all other people and faiths.

Quran (9:30) - "And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!"

Quran (9:38-39) - "O ye who believe! what is the matter with you, that, when ye are asked to go forth in the cause of Allah, ye cling heavily to the earth? Do ye prefer the life of this world to the Hereafter? But little is the comfort of this life, as compared with the Hereafter. Unless ye go forth, He will punish you with a grievous penalty, and put others in your place." This is a warning to those who refuse to fight, that they will be punished with Hell.

Quran (9:41) - "Go forth, light-armed and heavy-armed, and strive with your wealth and your lives in the way of Allah! That is best for you if ye but knew." See also the verse that follows (9:42) - "If there had been immediate gain (in sight), and the journey easy, they would (all) without doubt have followed thee, but the distance was long, (and weighed) on them" This contradicts the myth that Muslims are to fight only in self-defense, since the wording implies that battle will be waged a long distance from home (in another country and on Christian soil, in this case, according to the historians).

Quran (9:73) - "O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the hypocrites and be unyielding to them; and their abode is hell, and evil is the destination." Dehumanizing those who reject Islam, by reminding Muslims that they are merely firewood for Hell, makes it easier to justify slaughter. It also explains why today's devout Muslims have little regard for those outside the faith.

Quran (9:88) - "But the Messenger, and those who believe with him, strive and fight with their wealth and their persons: for them are (all) good things: and it is they who will prosper."

Quran (9:111) - "Allah hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain: a promise binding on Him in truth, through the Law, the Gospel, and the Quran: and who is more faithful to his covenant than Allah? then rejoice in the bargain which ye have concluded: that is the achievement supreme."

Quran (9:123) - "O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness."

Quran (17:16) - "And when We wish to destroy a town, We send Our commandment to the people of it who lead easy lives, but they transgress therein; thus the word proves true against it, so We destroy it with utter destruction." Note that the crime is moral transgression, and the punishment is "utter destruction." (Before ordering the 9/11 attacks, Osama bin Laden first issued Americans an invitation to Islam).

Quran (18:65-81) - This parable lays the theological groundwork for honor killings, in which a family member is murdered because they brought shame to the family, either through apostasy or perceived moral indiscretion. The story (which is not found in any Jewish or Christian source) tells of Moses encountering a man with "special knowledge" who does things which don't seem to make sense on the surface, but are then justified according to later explanation. One such action is to murder a youth for no apparent reason (74). However, the wise man later explains that it was feared that the boy would "grieve" his parents by "disobedience and ingratitude." He was killed so that Allah could provide them a 'better' son. (Note: This is one reason why honor killing is sanctioned by Sharia. Reliance of the Traveler (Umdat al-Saliq) says that punishment for murder is not applicable when a parent or grandparent kills their offspring (o.1.1-2).)

Quran (21:44) - "We gave the good things of this life to these men and their fathers until the period grew long for them; See they not that We gradually reduce the land (in their control) from its outlying borders? Is it then they who will win?"

Quran (25:52) - "Therefore listen not to the Unbelievers, but strive against them with the utmost strenuousness..." "Strive against" is Jihad - obviously not in the personal context. It's also significant to point out that this is a Meccan verse.

Quran (33:60-62) - "If the hypocrites, and those in whose hearts is a disease, and the alarmists in the city do not cease, We verily shall urge thee on against them, then they will be your neighbors in it but a little while. Accursed, they will be seized wherever found and slain with a (fierce) slaughter." This passage sanctions the slaughter (rendered "merciless" and "horrible murder" in other translations) against three groups: Hypocrites (Muslims who refuse to "fight in the way of Allah" (3:167) and hence don't act as Muslims should), those with "diseased hearts" (which include Jews and Christians 5:51-52), and "alarmists" or "agitators who include those who merely speak out against Islam, according to Muhammad's biographers. It is worth noting that the victims are to be sought out by Muslims, which is what today's terrorists do. If this passage is meant merely to apply to the city of Medina, then it is unclear why it is included in Allah's eternal word to Muslim generations.

Quran (47:3-4) - "Those who reject Allah follow vanities, while those who believe follow the truth from their lord. Thus does Allah set forth form men their lessons by similitude. Therefore when you meet in battle those who disbelieve, then smite the necks until when you have overcome them, then make (them) prisoners," Those who reject Allah are to be subdued in battle. The verse goes on to say the only reason Allah doesn't do the dirty work himself is in order to to test the faithfulness of Muslims. Those who kill pass the test. "But if it had been Allah's Will, He could certainly have exacted retribution from them (Himself); but (He lets you fight) in order to test you, some with others. But those who are slain in the Way of Allah,- He will never let their deeds be lost."

Quran (47:35) - "Be not weary and faint-hearted, crying for peace, when ye should be uppermost (Shakir: "have the upper hand") for Allah is with you,"

Quran (48:17) - "There is no blame for the blind, nor is there blame for the lame, nor is there blame for the sick (that they go not forth to war). And whoso obeyeth Allah and His messenger, He will make him enter Gardens underneath which rivers flow; and whoso turneth back, him will He punish with a painful doom." Contemporary apologists sometimes claim that Jihad means 'spiritual struggle.' Is so, then why are the blind, lame and sick exempted? This verse also says that those who do not fight will suffer torment in hell.

Quran (48:29) - "Muhammad is the messenger of Allah. And those with him are hard (ruthless) against the disbelievers and merciful among themselves" Islam is not about treating everyone equally. There are two very distinct standards that are applied based on religious status. Also the word used for 'hard' or 'ruthless' in this verse shares the same root as the word translated as 'painful' or severe' in verse 16.

Quran (61:4) - "Surely Allah loves those who fight in His way" Religion of Peace, indeed! This is followed by (61:9): "He it is who has sent His Messenger (Mohammed) with guidance and the religion of truth (Islam) to make it victorious over all religions even though the infidels may resist."

Quran (61:10-12) - "O ye who believe! Shall I lead you to a bargain that will save you from a grievous Penalty?- That ye believe in Allah and His Messenger, and that ye strive (your utmost) in the Cause of Allah, with your property and your persons: That will be best for you, if ye but knew! He will forgive you your sins, and admit you to Gardens beneath which Rivers flow, and to beautiful mansions in Gardens of Eternity." This verse was given in battle. It uses the Arabic word, Jihad.

Quran (66:9) - "O Prophet! Strive against the disbelievers and the hypocrites, and be stern with them. Hell will be their home, a hapless journey's end." The root word of "Jihad" is used again here. The context is clearly holy war, and the scope of violence is broadened to include "hypocrites" - those who call themselves Muslims but do not act as such.

Mind you this is only quran.....Hadiths are even more Gory, where the so called prophet himself indulge in criminal activities and muslims are supposed to emulate him..............

 

[cloud_9]

Stay there then!! Oooppppppssss they have already ethnically cleansed Kashmir and Pakistan off Hindus (I know you are a Sikh -- that means you are next -- when they are done with Hindu India)!!

> > > > >

 

[Godless-Kafir]

In this case i accept Islam..!

This is the way to do it, this is the way it has to be done, this the way it was done, this the way it shall be done.

This is I--SLAMMMMM you to the fleeting ground if you dont accept the holy Kabbbaab.

 

[BangersAndMash]

Seems like people are just pi$$ed off because of the shortcomings of their own religion/people.

 

[afako]

We don't have the same forefathers mate, and mines have left me a far better example to follow. Trolling begets trolling, mate. Cheers!

There is only One True Islam. And that Islam was there in Mohammad's Days, the one in Iran, the same one came to India and the same one where todays all Muslims are moving to, otherwise they will be Halaled!

Think of your Interests!

 

[maomao]

Seems like people are just pi$$ed off because of the shortcomings of their own religion/people.

Yeah you know you are correct!! Impose Hinduism on Islam then see what happens genius (and I'm suggesting this to be tried in Hindu majority India, leave islamic majority shytholes)!

 

[Drona]

They call themselves moderate muslim , why ? simply because they say Islam do not says such thing (killing Kafirs and heven n all) ! But they choose to ignore that this not only thing Islam says ! women oppression (probably in worst existing), religious intolerance towards other religions, life style and nations, irresponsible behaviour as citizen (unnecessary breeding, leading to poverty. well poor are burden on society .. cruel statement but true).

If these so called moderate muslims are not going address other such issues , then "Islam do not teach that" is not going to enough/help to convince others .

 

[civfanatic]

Seems like people are just pi$$ed off because of the shortcomings of their own religion/people.

You've just identified the basis of Hindutva ideology.

 

[maomao]

You've just identified the basis of Hindutva ideology.

This means Hindutva ideology is introspecting and by getting pissed they are rectifying their flaws...........in the long run they will be in a better realistic position to fight 1400 yr old evil which has been ravaging it's lands!

 

[civfanatic]

This means Hindutva ideology is introspecting and by getting pissed they are rectifying their flaws...........in the long run they will be in a better realistic position to fight 1400 yr old evil which has been ravaging its lands!

Hindutva idelogy = imitating Muslims to overcome "evil Islam" (and Christianity). Nothing more, nothing less.

 

[pmaitra]

This means Hindutva ideology is introspecting and by getting pissed they are rectifying their flaws...........in the long run they will be in a better realistic position to fight 1400 yr old evil which has been ravaging its lands!

They haven't rectified all the flaws, apparently.

 

[pmaitra]

Hindutva idelogy = imitating Muslims to overcome "evil Islam" (and Christianity). Nothing more, nothing less.

+1

Hindutva proponents are actually imitating Islamic extremism to counter Islamic extremism.

 

[maomao]

Hindutva idelogy = imitating Muslims to overcome "evil Islam" (and Christianity). Nothing more, nothing less.

Hmmmmm somewhat true....However to defend one has to pickup arms rather than follow dumb self-inflicting Gandhi ideology!

 

[maomao]

They haven't rectified all the flaws, apparently.

They have and they are working towards then by unifying Hindus beyong caste...that one step forward towards elimination castism; though it will take ages; however when that happens it will decimate left and secularism first!

 

[maomao]

+1

Hindutva proponents are actually imitating Islamic extremism to counter Islamic extremism.

Nothing wrong in that.....to vanquish evil if one needs to pic up arms....nothing wrong seriously!

In case, you wanna preach dumb Gandhian philosophy that eye for an eye makes the whole world blind - then you are knocking the wrong door!

(OT: BTW how peaceful are commies?)

 

[pmaitra]

They have and they are working towards then by unifying Hindus beyong caste...that one step forward towards elimination castism; though it will take ages; however when that happens it will decimate left and secularism first!

Unifying Hindus? Not quite. Some people actually make an effort to understand the scriptures, through deliberation, while some rely on RSS propaganda. Cannot unite these two.

Nothing wrong in that.....to vanquish evil if one needs to pic up arms....nothing wrong seriously!

In case, you wanna preach dumb Gandhian philosophy that eye for an eye makes the whole world blind - then you are knocking the wrong door!

(OT: BTE how peaceful are commies?)

Knocking on the door? Door isn't exactly the thing that needs a knock, for those that are incorrigible.

 

[maomao]

Unifying Hindus? Not quite. Some people actually make an effort to understand the scriptures, through deliberation, while some rely on RSS propaganda. Cannot unite these two.

RSS does not follow castisim. Secondly, the abhor it because they understand that castism ails Hinduism to the core; hence the don't follow it! You don't need to read the text, RSS does a good job by sending Gurus and Preachers to do the job, hence doing a great job!

Knocking on the door? Door isn't exactly the thing that needs a knock, for those that are incorrigible.

Thanks for the pep talk Mr. Intellectual. However, left has a habit to barge into other people's doors that too uninvited.....hence, you need not knock, as ilk of you are inane !

 

[pmaitra]

RSS does not follow castisim. Secondly, the abhor it because they understand that castism ails Hinduism to the core; hence the don't follow it! You don't need to read the text, RSS does a good job by sending Gurus and Preachers to do the job, hence doing a great job!

Pffft - communists fought against casteism long before RSS came into being. How does it feel to follow the beaten path?

Thanks for the pep talk Mr. Intellectual. However, left has a habit to barge into other people's doors that too uninvited.....hence, you need not knock, as ilk of you are inane !

Left also has the habit of pioneering progress, and leading the blind sheeple into light, to encourage people to stand up for their rights. In a way, the commies did show the light to the RSS. The RSS, in this case, turned out to be good students. Some, however, are, as i said, incorrigible.