Know Your 'Rafale'

[IndianHawk]

so what exactly is the requirement of IAF in terms of numbers and types

That is a mystery. Earlier fgfa was also coming but that is gone now. So may be rafale will provide edge untill amca comes along.

In my previous post there is an error.
800 fighter for 2032 include 120 mwf but by 2035 mig29 ,mirage and jaguar will retire creating a void of another 200 birds.

As there are total 200 mwf numbers projected it creates gap of another 80-100 fighters.

Maybe amca will fill that.

Parrikar cancelled mmrca tender as they didn't had the money for 126 rafale. So they went for single engine tender but that was controversial because of only two bidders and technology transfer didn't work out clearly so they again went for global tender which is now in progress even su35 is participating.

In the era of multirole fighter the true difference among fighters is single engine or double engine as that vastly changes operational and maintenance time and costs.

Iaf already have 280 su30 and 66 mig29 which are twin engine with 36 rafale it will have 400 twin engine fighters. Jaguar is also twin engine but belongs to a different era so leaving that aside.

So rest 400 must be ideally single engine.
123 lca + 200 mwf + 100 another single engine type.

Alternatively iaf can go for 90-114 more rafale for a decisive edge against China with total 430( 280su30+ 150rafale) very potent fighters.
And make up rest of the numbers with more lca and mwf.

That is what I will choose. To get to 840 fighter I will want 280su30+ 150 rafale. For
Rest 400 I will order 200 lca mk1a ( including 40 mk1 converted to mk1a) and 200 mwf.

And then move on to amca as su30 show their age.

But 114 rafale will cost nothing less than 25 billion $ and more lca will come with delay.

Looking at it objectively govt might go for 72 more rafale at 15 billion$ as infra is already there and then go for 200+ mwf straight.

This leaves gap of 80 fighters so 60 more mk1a can be ordered for a total of 200 mk1a .
And 21 mig29 upgrade are coming.

But to be honest it's upto Modi. He might open check book and go for 114 rafale . That way even if squadron numbers are less than optimal India will still have an edge capabilities wise.

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[BON PLAN]

EF typhoon has PESA radar and is extremely prone to jamming. But Spectra is useless in front of modern AESA radars. Su30 has PESA radar but it has arrays similar to AESA and has high jam resistance, though not jamproof like AESA. I don't know if SPECTRA can jam Su30

No, EF has a mecanical classical antenna radar. Nothing like PESA or AESA.

No, Spectra is not useless.
Any radar, classical, PESA or AESA need some reccurent signals to track a target. Even with a LPI radar, there is a train of signals. A small train but a train. The first signal can't be jammed, but the others can. It's where Spectra play. Spectra use the first one of the very first ones so as to adapt the counter measures. The radar need more than just one or a very few signals to elaborate a firm track. At least Spectra avoird the opponent radar to elaborate a fire solution.
About the active cancelation, it's really a state secret.
Don't forget that Spectra alone use 25% of the R&D spent on all the Rafale program... It was not just to study a "classical" electronic counter measures system.

 

[BON PLAN]

Iaf has issue conflicting statement regarding 114 fighter tender. They have said previously that mmrca and SEF are different procurement program. Lca is coming but they need 114 fighters like yesterday!

Although with mwf unveiled I hope SEF is gone and lca and mwf are way forward.

If that theory is true then all is left to order more rafale.

But IAF insists of reaching 42 sq by 2032. That means
840 fighters

Let's see 280 su30mki.
123 lca mk1/mk1a
66+21 mig29 upgrade
48 mirage upgrade
114+36 rafale
It's 688 birds
Only of mwf is ready by 2027 and ordered 24 a year then we can have 120 mwf by 2032
Totalling 800 fighter.

Well it seems this could work . The only question is rafale price negotiation then.

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There are not many solutions :
- Or you need foreign single engine fighter urgently and you have to forget MII (because too long to elaborate : see MMRCA1), can't take Gripen E because not FOC and only purchase F16 (sorry : F21 ). But F16/F21 is a old horse, with a US embargo risk, and is used by your main foe.
- You want to have MII (and I think you are right) : good luck to ink speedily a deal with Gripen or F16/F21. It will take a couple of years, add the line installation time, and the production ramp up.... The first planes will be in the force in... 7/8 years ? And with always an ambargo risk on engine and weapons.
- You rely on Tejas, and ask HAL to remove the finger from their ass or to give Reliance the right to produce it in parallel... and avoid the engine embargo risk thanks to a full speed end developpment phase of Kaveri (now in a freeze zone it seems).

-

 

[Steven Rogers]

EF typhoon has PESA radar and is extremely prone to jamming. But Spectra is useless in front of modern AESA radars. Su30 has PESA radar but it has arrays similar to AESA and has high jam resistance, though not jamproof like AESA. I don't know if SPECTRA can jam Su30

Not useless but less effective.

 

[Kchontha]

114 will be Rafael that is for sure but namo is a hard bargainer, he will squeeze French balls until it squirts m88 hot technology and spectra.

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[IndianHawk]

There are not many solutions :
- Or you need foreign single engine fighter urgently and you have to forget MII (because too long to elaborate : see MMRCA1), can't take Gripen E because not FOC and only purchase F16 (sorry : F21 ). But F16/F21 is a old horse, with a US embargo risk, and is used by your main foe.
- You want to have MII (and I think you are right) : good luck to ink speedily a deal with Gripen or F16/F21. It will take a couple of years, add the line installation time, and the production ramp up.... The first planes will be in the force in... 7/8 years ? And with always an ambargo risk on engine and weapons.
- You rely on Tejas, and ask HAL to remove the finger from their ass or to give Reliance the right to produce it in parallel... and avoid the engine embargo risk thanks to a full speed end developpment phase of Kaveri (now in a freeze zone it seems).

-

Like I said depends on Modi and what he is willing to spend on iaf in next few years .

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[IndianHawk]

114 will be Rafael that is for sure but namo is a hard bargainer, he will squeeze French balls until it squirts m88 hot technology and spectra.

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If I was French I'd offer rafale on discount while lure India to partner for 6gen project for long term partnership and be benefits.

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[BON PLAN]

114 will be Rafael that is for sure but namo is a hard bargainer, he will squeeze French balls until it squirts m88 hot technology and spectra.

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For 114 jets, it's a possible deal. Maybe not for 100% of the tech but a big share of.
For exemple it's not sure that India is equipped to produce M88 Cristal blades. To give tech is one thing, to be ready to use it is another thing.

 

[Kchontha]

Imo if 'know how' is provided manufacturing or producing a thing would not be much of an issue. Then the end product can be wisely and judiciously apply/utilise/consumed.

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[Armand2REP]

If I was French I'd offer rafale on discount while lure India to partner for 6gen project for long term partnership and be benefits.

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We already gave the IAF a tax break on the order for 36 large enough that we gave two away for free. No one else got that deal. Let us land the order for 114 and then we can talk about SCAF. It is a long way off but just making the Rafale will get you into the ecosystem. It is possible you will get offsets going into SCAF without even ordering it as we try to reduce the cost of using Indian competitive advantage.

 

[IndianHawk]

We already gave the IAF a tax break on the order for 36 large enough that we gave two away for free. No one else got that deal. Let us land the order for 114 and then we can talk about SCAF. It is a long way off but just making the Rafale will get you into the ecosystem. It is possible you will get offsets going into SCAF without even ordering it as we try to reduce the cost of using Indian competitive advantage.

India got tax break on rafale! So you are saying 10billion $ were for 34 rafale as we got 2 free .

That just makes rafale more costly!

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[Armand2REP]

India got tax break on rafale! So you are saying 10billion $ were for 34 rafale as we got 2 free .

That just makes rafale more costly!

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You are used to Russian pricing that only includes the cost of the aircraft, not the cost of the infra, the maintenance or the missiles which are all separate contracts. We need to take a lesson from Russia and only start with the list price of the aircraft.

 

[IndianHawk]

You are used to Russian pricing that only includes the cost of the aircraft, not the cost of the infra, the maintenance or the missiles which are all separate contracts. We need to take a lesson from Russia and only start with the list price of the aircraft.

Not really I'm just trying to find out the exact price of 114 rafale and to see if that is affordable in current budget projection.

You pointed out a tax break. So the question arises what is the price without tax break?
Will tax break be applicable to 114 rafale contract? If not how will that affect the prices.



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[Vijyes]

Not really I'm just trying to find out the exact price of 114 rafale and to see if that is affordable in current budget projection.

You pointed out a tax break. So the question arises what is the price without tax break?
Will tax break be applicable to 114 rafale contract? If not how will that affect the prices.



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We are after technology acquisition. So, budget is not a restraint unless it is excessively high. $20 billion dollar for a major technology acquisition is a good bargain. Question must always be focused ont echnoloy trasnfer. Money is second priority. Also, don't fll into tax cut etc as the cost of the plane was standard cost itself

 

[Armand2REP]

Rafale replica erected outside IAF chief BS Dhanoa's residence opposite Congress headquarters
BS Dhanoa's residence, ironically, is bang opposite the Congress headquarters. Earlier, a model of a Sukhoi Su-30 was set up at the same place before being removed a few months ago.

India Today Web Desk
New Delhi
May 31, 2019
UPDATED: May 31, 2019 17:23
A replica of a Rafale fighter jet has been erected outside the official residence of India Air Force (IAF) chief Air Chief Marshal BS Dhanoa in Lutyens Delhi. Ironically BS Dhanoa's residence is bang opposite the Congress headquarters.

Earlier, a model of a Sukhoi Su-30 was set up at the same place before being removed a few months ago.



The Congress has accused the ruling Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) of corruption in a deal to purchase 36 Rafale fighter jets from France.

Facing a dipping number of fighter jets in India, PM Narendra Modi, in 2016, signed an inter-governmental deal with France to purchase "ready-made" 36 Rafale aircraft from Dassault. Anil Ambani-owned Reliance Defence was selected as an offset partner to Dassault Aviation.

However, in 2007, the UPA government had made a deal for $10 billion (Rs 68,000 crore) for 126 Rafale jets. Eighteen of these Rafale fighter jets were to be imported in a fly-away condition.

In the run-up to the Lok Sabha elections, the Congress has repeatedly levelled allegations against the BJP government for alleged wrongdoings in the deal and has accused Prime Minister Narendra Modi of corruption, which the ruling party has outrightly denied. It also demanded an investigation into the role of Prime Minister Narendra Modi in the Rafale deal.

On December 14, 2018, the Supreme Court had dismissed all petitions seeking a court-monitored probe into the deal, saying that there was no occasion to doubt the decision-making process in the deal.

The first Rafale is expected to be handed over to the Indian Air Force in September 2019 but it would be required to undergo intensive 1,500 hours of testing to validate the India-specific enhancements on it. So, the first batch of the four planes is likely to arrive at Ambala around May 2020.

https://www.indiatoday.in/india/sto...site-congress-headquarters-1539331-2019-05-31

Rub that salt into the wound as Cong will be seeing hundreds more Rafale!

 

[BON PLAN]

Could This U.S. Ally Really Build Their Own F-35?
France won't go full stealth, but wants to make some big changes to its fighter jets.

YES, we can !!!!

://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/could-us-ally-really-build-their-own-f-35-60512

 

[Steven Rogers]

Could This U.S. Ally Really Build Their Own F-35?
France won't go full stealth, but wants to make some big changes to its fighter jets.

YES, we can !!!!

://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/could-us-ally-really-build-their-own-f-35-60512

National interest.................. Who reads this trash....

 

[itsme]

When is IAF receiving the first Rafale?

 

[Absolut_Vodka]

You are used to Russian pricing that only includes the cost of the aircraft, not the cost of the infra, the maintenance or the missiles which are all separate contracts. We need to take a lesson from Russia and only start with the list price of the aircraft.

Is there any news on investigation into break in IAF office in France?

 

[Punya Pratap]

I have a vague suspicion that the Modi government will definitely go for more Rafale and I really don't have any objections other than the fact that the TOT has to be ironclad and delivered. Secondly the price factor is an issue but I suppose our PM and RM may then slash the orders from 114 down and meet the requirement by acquiring either used Mirage 2000 or Mig 29's. If this scenario comes to pass then I would advise 72 Rafale for IAF + 36/38 Mirage as first priority or else a mix of Mirage 2000 and RMAF Mig 29's which is a concurrent deal for selling Tejas to Malaysia. This suggestion would I suppose invite criticism but budgetary constraints are a reality with the GDP sinking and Modi being a populist leader would like to strike a balance. Moreover this trimming of order for IAF will ensure that Rafale M's can be acquired for Indian Navy with the funds thus saved. However the combined number of Rafale jets purchased by India (IAF and IN)w be enough to warrant setting up of production in India as well as proper TOT. Now whether French will play ball is up to them but Modi will definitely push for the best deal. I think the 4 squadron (72 Rafale) should then be deployed as under :

1 extra squadron at Ambala (handle PLAAF + PAF)
1 extra squadron at Hashimara (handle PLAAF)
1 squadron at Jodhpur for PAF bases in Sindh province
1 squadron at Tezpur for protecting NE
1 squadron at