- Joined
- Dec 17, 2009
- Messages
- 13,811
- Likes
- 6,734
Israel is nothing but an extension of the US defence establishment. If US says shut sales down, they have no choice but to obey.
Israel bars AESA radar export to India
- Thread starter neo29
- Start date
Rahul Singh
Senior Member
- Joined
- Mar 30, 2009
- Messages
- 3,652
- Likes
- 5,790
^But they did sold us Green Pine despite US objections.
neo29
Senior Member
- Joined
- Dec 1, 2009
- Messages
- 1,284
- Likes
- 30
Israel has always been India's friend and has provided us most hardware we need. When Israel wanted to sell us Arrow 2, US blocked the sale but they managed to squeeze in Green Pine radar. US has been a good investor in Israel defence equipment and hence arm twists Israel in decisions to sell hardware.
But nevertheless, Israel can surely help India with its own AESA. There are always back channels to do so. Besides with a massive Pak Fa deal surely we are getting AESA from Russia one way or another.
But nevertheless, Israel can surely help India with its own AESA. There are always back channels to do so. Besides with a massive Pak Fa deal surely we are getting AESA from Russia one way or another.
- Joined
- Dec 17, 2009
- Messages
- 13,811
- Likes
- 6,734
when did US give Israel an ultimatum not to sell Green Pine and why would it bother? It is not banned China.
neo29
Senior Member
- Joined
- Dec 1, 2009
- Messages
- 1,284
- Likes
- 30
Before US could block Green Pine, Israel sold it in a hurry.
US cant block everything that is being India because of vested interests in India. This move comes as US probably realizes that they will loose mmrca and the critical component should not fall into India's hands.
- Joined
- Feb 12, 2009
- Messages
- 7,550
- Likes
- 1,308
LRDE is working on this, they have to crack the code of GaN modules, I don't think this news is confirmed but if it is, all the more good. We will have our own version. In short term if we can import the Tx/Rx modules that will be good, if not well get our own version ready.
This is not the first time spanner has been put on LCA development (remember the CLAW team didn't got there source code back after the test, even before when they got the simulator and put there code, there was some issues it was blamed on CLAW team after long time it was founf that problem was with the machine not the code).
So this is the way it is going to be dismiss, ridicule...................... gradual acceptance............envy.
This is not the first time spanner has been put on LCA development (remember the CLAW team didn't got there source code back after the test, even before when they got the simulator and put there code, there was some issues it was blamed on CLAW team after long time it was founf that problem was with the machine not the code).
So this is the way it is going to be dismiss, ridicule...................... gradual acceptance............envy.
- Joined
- May 26, 2010
- Messages
- 31,122
- Likes
- 41,042
We all knew this would happen..
Anyways gud news..
Anyways gud news..
icecoolben
Regular Member
- Joined
- Aug 14, 2009
- Messages
- 472
- Likes
- 5
Hey poster any, paste some cheer up posters, will u?
- Joined
- May 26, 2010
- Messages
- 31,122
- Likes
- 41,042
Is this confirmed news? Its possible that Israel might still facilitate the sale under different channels although I must admit that its America's right to block sales given that they have a huge stake and investment in it if they believe that its hurting their sales.
Here is an older story that shows the US-Israeli tussle when it comes to exports to China and India. Israel has acted independently from the US restrictions when it needs to and it could possibly do it with India as well.
U.S., Israel at Odds Over Israeli Defense Sales and Technology Transfer to India, China
February 1999
A September visit to China by Israel's defense minister and an October biannual meeting between U.S. and Israeli officials highlighted increasing U.S. concern about Israeli arms sales and Israel's illegal retransfer of American military technology to India and China.
In September, Israeli Defense Minister Yitzhak Mordechai met in China with President Jiang Zemin to discuss increasing Israel's role in China's massive military modernization program. "Mordechai came to Shanghai, Xi'an, and Beijing with the heads of the country's major defense industries to open doors, make contacts and win the green light from [China's] leadership to make deals," Israel's Jerusalem Post reported Sept. 13. Accompanying Mordechai on his trip, according to the Post, were representatives from virtually every Israeli defense company, including state-owned Israel Aircraft Industries, Rafael, TAAS-Israel Industries, El-Op, Tadiran, Rada, Elissra and Elbit.
Mordechai's trip to China did not go unnoticed in Washington. In the lead article of the November issue of "Pointer," a monthly supplement to Jane's Intelligence Review, under the title "Israel's Dirty Deals," writer Al Venter points out that "The remarkable proliferation of sophisticated hi-tech weapons systems in Israel is raising questions in Washington. Making the stuff is fine, say the Americans. The problem is who Israel ends up selling [it] to."
The Jerusalem Post also recognized American concerns. "The Americans, meanwhile, are apprehensive about the cozy ties being forged on this side of the world, which, they fear, may involve the illegal transfer of U.S. technologies in Israel's hands," the Post reported. It's interesting to note that nowhere in the article did the Post deny the legitimacy of those concerns.
Americans should be worried. Despite a recent lull in Israeli defense exports to China, Israeli companies have provided China with substantial amounts of military hardware and technology in the past, and there also have been widespread public allegations from several sources, including the U.S. government, that Israel has illegally sold substantial quantities of sensitive American military technology repeatedly to China in direct violation of U.S. export laws.
A Resurrected Lavi
Among the items and technology Israel allegedly has sold to China are the Python-3 air-to-air missile, which is thought to contain substantial amounts of American technology from the AIM-9L "Sidewinder" missile, cruise missile technology, accuracy modifications for ballistic missiles, and massive amounts of hardware, technology and guidance for China's F-10 fighter, which is strikingly similar to Israel's failed Lavi light fighter. The Lavi project, funded almost exclusively by U.S. taxpayers, received more than $1.5 billion from the United States before it was cancelled in 1987. (For more information about Israel's illegal retransfer of American military technology to China, see "Congress Calls for Sanctions If Israeli Technology Transfer to China Is Proven," Washington Report on Middle East Affairs, November/December 1996, p. 9.)
Israel also has won a $250 million contract, with Russia, to provide China with an advanced airborne early warning (AEW) system similar in function to the U.S. AWACs platform, which will greatly improve China's ability to conduct over-the-horizon warfare. China's acquisition of an AEW system will provide a dramatic advance in its operational abilities and will, according to Heritage Foundation senior analyst Richard Fisher, "significantly erode the military technical edge held by the U.S. and Taiwan that is necessary for deterring China."
It also is interesting to note that Israeli defense officials accompanying Yitzhak Mordechai to China "pleaded with journalists accompanying [him] not to report on any possible deals, claiming the Chinese were ultra-sensitive to publicity and any report that appeared would likely scuttle the deal," according to the Jerusalem Post. A more likely rationale for Israel not wanting its dealings with China reported is to prevent U.S. officials from learning of impending deals in time to prevent them, particularly when they involve sensitive U.S. technology protected, at least on paper, by U.S. export laws.
Less than a month after Defense Minister Mordechai's trip to China, U.S. and Israeli officials met in Israel for the semiannual meeting of the Joint Political Military Group. One item on the American agenda, according to the U.S. trade weekly Defense News, was a request that Israel ban arms sales and transfers of technology to India.
The United States imposed sanctions on India and rival Pakistan in May after both countries successfully detonated nuclear devices. To help enforce those sanctions, the United States has asked suppliers of military assistance to both countries, including Russia and Israel, to refrain from large-scale, destabilizing arms sales to the subcontinent.
Sensitive Deals
"Israel has been a particular target of Washington's efforts because of several sensitive arms deals in the offing, including a potential $1 billion airborne early warning package," Defense News reported. Other Israeli defense programs with India include avionics upgrades for up to 400 Indian fighter aircraft, additional unmanned aerial vehicles for reconnaissance, and the transfer of Israel's Green Pine fire control radar system developed for the U.S.-Israel Arrow missile program, and paid for almost entirely with U.S. taxpayer funds.
Israel insists that the Green Pine radar is not subject to U.S. export law, although it is part of a joint U.S.-Israeli defense program that already has received more than $800 million in U.S. funding. Exporting Green Pine "is our decision to make," an Israeli official told Defense News.
"Clearly this is not the U.S. view at all," American University professor Duncan Clarke told Defense News. "Attempting to make the case that Arrow components are exclusively Israeli is not well received in the Pentagon or the State Department," he said. Responding to U.S. pressure, Defense Minister Mordechai announced that Israeli defense firms would suspend dealings with India temporarily. "Let's be clear here," an Israeli official told Defense News. "This is not a prohibition. It's a temporary, voluntary freeze that may or may not be adhered to depending on the circumstances."
http://wrmea.com/backissues/0199/9901054.html
Here is an older story that shows the US-Israeli tussle when it comes to exports to China and India. Israel has acted independently from the US restrictions when it needs to and it could possibly do it with India as well.
U.S., Israel at Odds Over Israeli Defense Sales and Technology Transfer to India, China
February 1999
A September visit to China by Israel's defense minister and an October biannual meeting between U.S. and Israeli officials highlighted increasing U.S. concern about Israeli arms sales and Israel's illegal retransfer of American military technology to India and China.
In September, Israeli Defense Minister Yitzhak Mordechai met in China with President Jiang Zemin to discuss increasing Israel's role in China's massive military modernization program. "Mordechai came to Shanghai, Xi'an, and Beijing with the heads of the country's major defense industries to open doors, make contacts and win the green light from [China's] leadership to make deals," Israel's Jerusalem Post reported Sept. 13. Accompanying Mordechai on his trip, according to the Post, were representatives from virtually every Israeli defense company, including state-owned Israel Aircraft Industries, Rafael, TAAS-Israel Industries, El-Op, Tadiran, Rada, Elissra and Elbit.
Mordechai's trip to China did not go unnoticed in Washington. In the lead article of the November issue of "Pointer," a monthly supplement to Jane's Intelligence Review, under the title "Israel's Dirty Deals," writer Al Venter points out that "The remarkable proliferation of sophisticated hi-tech weapons systems in Israel is raising questions in Washington. Making the stuff is fine, say the Americans. The problem is who Israel ends up selling [it] to."
The Jerusalem Post also recognized American concerns. "The Americans, meanwhile, are apprehensive about the cozy ties being forged on this side of the world, which, they fear, may involve the illegal transfer of U.S. technologies in Israel's hands," the Post reported. It's interesting to note that nowhere in the article did the Post deny the legitimacy of those concerns.
Americans should be worried. Despite a recent lull in Israeli defense exports to China, Israeli companies have provided China with substantial amounts of military hardware and technology in the past, and there also have been widespread public allegations from several sources, including the U.S. government, that Israel has illegally sold substantial quantities of sensitive American military technology repeatedly to China in direct violation of U.S. export laws.
A Resurrected Lavi
Among the items and technology Israel allegedly has sold to China are the Python-3 air-to-air missile, which is thought to contain substantial amounts of American technology from the AIM-9L "Sidewinder" missile, cruise missile technology, accuracy modifications for ballistic missiles, and massive amounts of hardware, technology and guidance for China's F-10 fighter, which is strikingly similar to Israel's failed Lavi light fighter. The Lavi project, funded almost exclusively by U.S. taxpayers, received more than $1.5 billion from the United States before it was cancelled in 1987. (For more information about Israel's illegal retransfer of American military technology to China, see "Congress Calls for Sanctions If Israeli Technology Transfer to China Is Proven," Washington Report on Middle East Affairs, November/December 1996, p. 9.)
Israel also has won a $250 million contract, with Russia, to provide China with an advanced airborne early warning (AEW) system similar in function to the U.S. AWACs platform, which will greatly improve China's ability to conduct over-the-horizon warfare. China's acquisition of an AEW system will provide a dramatic advance in its operational abilities and will, according to Heritage Foundation senior analyst Richard Fisher, "significantly erode the military technical edge held by the U.S. and Taiwan that is necessary for deterring China."
It also is interesting to note that Israeli defense officials accompanying Yitzhak Mordechai to China "pleaded with journalists accompanying [him] not to report on any possible deals, claiming the Chinese were ultra-sensitive to publicity and any report that appeared would likely scuttle the deal," according to the Jerusalem Post. A more likely rationale for Israel not wanting its dealings with China reported is to prevent U.S. officials from learning of impending deals in time to prevent them, particularly when they involve sensitive U.S. technology protected, at least on paper, by U.S. export laws.
Less than a month after Defense Minister Mordechai's trip to China, U.S. and Israeli officials met in Israel for the semiannual meeting of the Joint Political Military Group. One item on the American agenda, according to the U.S. trade weekly Defense News, was a request that Israel ban arms sales and transfers of technology to India.
The United States imposed sanctions on India and rival Pakistan in May after both countries successfully detonated nuclear devices. To help enforce those sanctions, the United States has asked suppliers of military assistance to both countries, including Russia and Israel, to refrain from large-scale, destabilizing arms sales to the subcontinent.
Sensitive Deals
"Israel has been a particular target of Washington's efforts because of several sensitive arms deals in the offing, including a potential $1 billion airborne early warning package," Defense News reported. Other Israeli defense programs with India include avionics upgrades for up to 400 Indian fighter aircraft, additional unmanned aerial vehicles for reconnaissance, and the transfer of Israel's Green Pine fire control radar system developed for the U.S.-Israel Arrow missile program, and paid for almost entirely with U.S. taxpayer funds.
Israel insists that the Green Pine radar is not subject to U.S. export law, although it is part of a joint U.S.-Israeli defense program that already has received more than $800 million in U.S. funding. Exporting Green Pine "is our decision to make," an Israeli official told Defense News.
"Clearly this is not the U.S. view at all," American University professor Duncan Clarke told Defense News. "Attempting to make the case that Arrow components are exclusively Israeli is not well received in the Pentagon or the State Department," he said. Responding to U.S. pressure, Defense Minister Mordechai announced that Israeli defense firms would suspend dealings with India temporarily. "Let's be clear here," an Israeli official told Defense News. "This is not a prohibition. It's a temporary, voluntary freeze that may or may not be adhered to depending on the circumstances."
http://wrmea.com/backissues/0199/9901054.html
icecoolben
Regular Member
- Joined
- Aug 14, 2009
- Messages
- 472
- Likes
- 5
Sorry In the Hindu article, el-2032 was misinterpreted as el-2052, it was written back by a reader feedback. Indian AESA radar will borrow heavily from DRDO awacs programme. Not everything on livefist and his sony erickson mobile pics appear from the holy book, definitely we need foreign partnership, but I hope they select one that isn't a hyper power, or one that isn't prone to be subservient to one.
Off-topic but India alongwith China, Russia(then USSR) e.t.c already recognized Palestine within 1967 borders in 1988. So that's pretty useless as a pressure tactic.I say, call the Israeli Ambassador and tell him that if the sale of the AESA radar is blocked, India would recognize Palestine as an independent country instantly.
Pun intended!
- Joined
- Oct 24, 2010
- Messages
- 2,093
- Likes
- 1,112
India's third AEW aircraft undergoes tests
The Indian air force's third Ilyushin Il-76-based airborne early warning and control aircraft has undergone flight tests equipped with additional systems.
The aircraft was tested during long-duration flights over Israel and the Mediterranean from Tel Aviv's Ben Gurion airport, and included "some very complex scenarios", according to one source. Indian air force personnel were aboard the platform for all the sorties.
India requested unspecified additional capabilities for its third Il-76 AEW&C aircraft after taking delivery of its first two examples from Israel Aerospace Industries' Elta Systems subsidiary.
The delivery of India's third Il-76 surveillance aircraft is scheduled for mid-2011, but IAI has refused to be more specific.
Boeing 747 and Airbus A380 Aircraft News from Flightglobal
So the guys are in Israel with ELTA.. so the problem would be solved, i guess.
- Joined
- Dec 17, 2009
- Messages
- 13,811
- Likes
- 6,734
If US really cared about India getting it, India wouldn't have it. US taxpayers pay too much for their defence for them to ignore it.
nrj
Ambassador
- Joined
- Nov 16, 2009
- Messages
- 9,658
- Likes
- 3,911
I believe not. The above news states the radar which Saab had only for Gripen D partnering with Thales. It was simply for demonstration & evaluation purpose. Right now they are working with Selex, which I think will not come under US influence.
Although operational reality of Raven 05 & CAPTOR-E is still distant. Elta 2052 was a better shot for MK2 as they worked to deliver by early 2013. Too early to say but if things grow apart, I see another ball in French basket.
sandeepdg
Senior Member
- Joined
- Sep 5, 2009
- Messages
- 2,333
- Likes
- 227
Though no AESA offers a capability equivalent to to the ELTA EL/M-2052 which can track 64 targets simultaneously, we have to be content with an European AESA for the time being for our LCA. Options include the Selex Vixen 500, Ericsson PS-05/A Mark 4, the CAPTOR E, AMSAR and the RBE2-AA. Among these the best according to me is the RBE2-AA which will be the AESA to be incorporated on the Rafale, it is slated to become operational in the Rafale by 2012. Other than that ZHUK-AE was the other best option but it is very heavy for LCA class fighter and more suited for the Mig-29 and SU-30. The follow on version of the ZHUK-AE, FGA-35 will have detection range of 200 km with a capability to track 60 targets. If its weight can be reduced, then it is the best option till we develop our own AESA.
SHASH2K2
New Member
- Joined
- May 10, 2010
- Messages
- 5,711
- Likes
- 730
I suspect its something out of desperation. USA might have access to TOT offering by other contenders and I am sure theirs is much much less than what others have offered. If we try to link it with MRCA tender file being found on road it seems very probable. Thats the reason they are trying to link Israeli AESA tech as theirs and use it as bargaining chip.
LETHALFORCE
Mod
- Joined
- Feb 16, 2009
- Messages
- 29,885
- Likes
- 48,599
SHASH2K2
New Member
- Joined
- May 10, 2010
- Messages
- 5,711
- Likes
- 730
LF I think that was deal by a private company and GOI cannot and shouldnt get involved in it . Dunno if there is any precedent of GOI mediating for private sector companies .
| Thread starter | Similar threads | Forum | Replies | Date |
|---|---|---|---|---|
|
Iran Israel conflict | OSINT | 43 | |
|
Israel - Hamas Gaza Conflict Oct-2023 | West Asia & Africa | 11500 | |
| W | New Weapon Systems from Israel | West Asia & Africa | 0 | |
| W | Indian army order 400 israel Athos howtizer | Indian Army | 1 |
