INS Vikrant Aircraft Carrier (IAC)

[Rajaraja Chola]

More apt example would have been structural strength work carried out for carrying Brahmos on Su 30mki. Similarly on Mig 29K most of the work needed is the structural.

Even for integrating Brahmos, Russians wanted a lot of money. ADA and related agencies did it within a fraction of that cost.

Any ways, the point of my previous post was, Russians would have demanded exhorbitant money for providing us the IP for Mig 29 K.

Even if we pay for the IP, we know we are going to get a half baked product. To rectify them either again we have to approach the Russians ( more money down the drain) or approach the DRDO/ADA.

In short, a loss making proposition.

Well yes. But then we could flash the mission computer with our own FBW. Best case, we could have our own mission computer and avionics with Russian aero design.

Russians designers are some of the best in aircrafts designs. Its their engine and avionics which sucks.

 

[Bhurki]

I simply dont understand then. When it took 3B or around 19k crores with cost and dollar inflation for a 40k tonne carrier how can they cost 45k crores for an 50k tonnes carrier. Earlier I had seen reports saying that 65k tonne with electric propulsion and ac will cost around 65k crores. And I always thought the cost was along with the fighters.

If you built the same copy of Vikrant starting today, then discounting for the economies of scale, you'd still pay 50% more because thats how much inflation, wages and peripheral costs have increased on an average in a decade.
That means over $4B for vikrant today.
The plan for IAC 2 was for a/c with atleast the EMALS and IEPS to power it.
Considering that even US took their time to field the EMALS system, its a given it would've costed a heck lot more than what anybodys thinking.

A 1 lakh tonne carrier of US navy with nuclear propulsion and EMALS cost around 11-12B including R&D. And 65k tonnes with electric propulsion is 9B? What are they smoking.

1st one cost $13B+ without R&D.
Also, USN has clearly defined schedule for subsystems contract, procurement and heavy advantage of economies of scale.
US achieves that by placing long lead orders swapping uncertainity to suppliers with discounts for itself.
(You can see this in 478 F35, 9 SSN block buy)
If Ford carrier was made as a one off, it would've cost more than $20B.
So, yeah, the numbers quoted by Indian navy are reasonable.
Also, none of the advantages of being Indian come into play since a large part of labour required will have to be highly specialized.

 

[Rajaraja Chola]

Navy have one edge as building of carriers and ship is a long term process which takes 5-6 years so navy finds as the project moves on they start paying in settlements which is very minimal and naval cheif was also saying that with our current funds also we can build a aircraft carrier.
It's like buying a flat in a building which is undergoing construction.
And infrastructure and new docks which are capable to dock aircraft carrier are already build. So work now will be faster.
Real issue is cost of jets.

If its going for a new design then count another 10 years. If I hire somebody for 20k per month and he will working on same project after 10 years for 1 lakh per month and for months on a time will be left without any work for no fault of his but drawing salary. This is an highly inefficient way to get something done, which has been a bane of shipbuilding PSU's for a long time.

They should go for an replica for IAC 1.

 

[Rajaraja Chola]

If you built the same copy of Vikrant starting today, then discounting for the economies of scale, you'd still pay 50% more because thats how much inflation, wages and peripheral costs have increased on an average in a decade.
That means over $4B for vikrant today.
The plan for IAC 2 was for a/c with atleast the EMALS and IEPS to power it.
Considering that even US took their time to field the EMALS system, its a given it would've costed a heck lot more than what anybodys thinking.

1st one cost $13B+ without R&D.
Also, USN has clearly defined schedule for subsystems contract, procurement and heavy advantage of economies of scale.
US achieves that by placing long lead orders swapping uncertainity to suppliers with discounts for itself.
(You can see this in 478 F35, 9 SSN block buy)
If Ford carrier was made as a one off, it would've cost more than $20B.
So, yeah, the numbers quoted by Indian navy are reasonable.
Also, none of the advantages of being Indian come into play since a large part of labour required will have to be highly specialized.

It is reasonable when Navy has other bases covered. It has not. It hasnt filled ASW requirement, ASW Choppers, Utility Choppers, subs, rescue vessels, Amphibious vessels, LHD's and the need to keep building more destroyers and frigates.

Budgets with respect to GDP going down each year thanks to slow growing economy MoD wont sanction it. Infact budget at dollar rates have remained stagnant for last 3-4 years. Navy better utilise the money for something more basic and important. We can go for an 100000 tonne nuke carrier when our economy is 5T and more.

 

[Raju Seth]

Navy should build IAC 2 as copycat of IAC 1. ADA twin engine can be ready or worst case import more Mig 29K to keep cost low at the same time maintain operational efficiency.

building aircar in bulk is cheap as component used become cheaper due to continous production line...learn from nimitz program,first one was expensive but last one was cheaper wrt inflation
IAC2 design should be frozen & 2 aircar should be made back to back(2nd one starting when 1st one is half built..look at UK they also built the QE same way,sngle aircar will always be expensive,IN should of size of charles de guella ,nuke powered,emals

 

[Bhurki]

It is reasonable when Navy has other bases covered. It has not. It hasnt filled ASW requirement, ASW Choppers, Utility Choppers, subs, rescue vessels, Amphibious vessels, LHD's and the need to keep building more destroyers and frigates.

Budgets with respect to GDP going down each year thanks to slow growing economy MoD wont sanction it. Infact budget at dollar rates have remained stagnant for last 3-4 years. Navy better utilise the money for something more basic and important. We can go for an 100000 tonne nuke carrier when our economy is 5T and more.

Yeah, until IN can make space for about 5000 crore fund every year for 10 years straight, nothing will happen...

 

[Bhurki]

IAC2 design should be frozen & 2 aircar should be made back to back(2nd one starting when 1st one is half built..look at UK they also built the QE same way,sngle aircar will always be expensive,IN should of size of charles de guella ,nuke powered,emals

Read the previous 10 comments and you'll know why you make no sense ..

 

[Longewala]

Any idea how effective naval rafale would be as a stobar aircraft - say if we just build a slightly larger copy of Vikrant instead if a completely new design

 

[Jameson Emoni]

Any idea how effective naval rafale would be as a stobar aircraft - say if we just build a slightly larger copy of Vikrant instead if a completely new design

I think Rafale is out of question. Its engine is not strong enough to take off from STOBAR carriers. Only realistic contenders are EA/F-18 and Mig-29-K.

Ideal choice would be LCA-N of-course if it were ready.

 

[Armand2REP]

I think Rafale is out of question. Its engine is not strong enough to take off from STOBAR carriers. Only realistic contenders are EA/F-18 and Mig-29-K.

Ideal choice would be LCA-N of-course if it were ready.

The Super Hornet is out of the question. It is 5 tonnes heavier than Rafale with much higher wing loading. Delta wing and canards is the perfect choice for a STOBAR carrier if you want to take off with a usable combat load.

 

[Aaj ka hero]

No rafale and No hornet, deck based twin engine fighter is coming and mid life upgrade of mig-29k is gonna happen.
So, money will go there.

 

[Longewala]

I think Rafale is out of question. Its engine is not strong enough to take off from STOBAR carriers. Only realistic contenders are EA/F-18 and Mig-29-K.

Ideal choice would be LCA-N of-course if it were ready.

Thanks.
It's a pity, ideal course of action imho would be to print out a couple more Vikrants to quickly build up a fleet of 4 carriers, saves cost and time rather than building a new bespoke carrier.

But at the same time, would be preferable to have a common fighter jet across IAF and IN, either Rafale or Tejas.

Pity the mig-29s were so maintenance heavy else we could as well standardise that across the fleet.

The US concept of separate aircraft types for the navy (f-14, 18) is just bonkers logistics wise.

 

[Bhurki]

I'm not sure if IN can operate 2 A/c with just 44 jets. Not sure how many are single seater K and dual seater KUB?
Naval LCA is tech demonstrator at best and TEDBF is far..

 

[Raju Seth]

Read the previous 10 comments and you'll know why you make no sense ..

if ur issue is cost,than single smaller aircar will cost more,bigger aircar in bulk are always cheap
This is one of the reason why usa doesnt operated frigates anyore,but has invested in destroyer as even thouhgh destroyer are heavyy they are fully equipped much better than frigates & cost less.
in shipping industry initial phase ie designing & building starting vessel is costly after that price drops

Once u have perfected the design u can build it whenever u want,ins vikrant is first attempt we dont know if we have made any blunder in design but if we were maing 4th carrier on same design ,we would be sure of design & thus ,will only invest in manufacturing ,& not design,tests etc

INS vishaal design should be perfected & india should make atleast 3 copies over 20 years time to get max benefit of investment on ins vishaal program

 

[Bhurki]

if ur issue is cost,than single smaller aircar will cost more,bigger aircar in bulk are always cheap

One 60k ton a/c will cost around $8B.(IN numbers)
Four 100k ton a/c will cost $40B ( Last 4 Nimitz class, inflated)
India doesn't have money for either..

This is one of the reason why usa doesnt operated frigates anyore

I'm telling you again, don't be nonsensical.
USN operates Independence, Freedom class.

INS vishaal design should be perfected & india should make atleast 3 copies over 20 years time to get max benefit of investment on ins vishaal program

STOBAR are a failed concept. At best they can provide limited air cover and no strike capability. Why the hell would one want to buy 3 of these?

 

[Raju Seth]

One 60k ton a/c will cost around $8B.(IN numbers)
Four 100k ton a/c will cost $40B ( Last 4 Nimitz class, inflated)
India doesn't have money for either..

First of all 8bn money is spread over 10 years time,that is how long aircar takes to be built
second india doesnt need 100k a/c,you are overthinking

I'm telling you again, don't be nonsensical.
USN operates Independence, Freedom class.

third ,freedom class & independence are subset of littoral class,littoral class is equal to corvette not frigates.A frigate is bigger than corvette

STOBAR are a failed concept. At best they can provide limited air cover and no strike capability. Why the hell would one want to buy 3 of these?

Agreed ,STOBAR comes with limited capability & doesnt suits indian scenario
but ins vishaal is going to be catobar ,hence by all means india should go ahead with program & make atleast 3 copies over a period of 20 years


Not everytime all carriers are fully equipped as per mission aircrafts on them are mounted,nimitz operate at 50% in peacetime scenarios,so it isnt like operating a/c will be big amounts,& if the design & manufacturing is kept home ,it generates job & isnt loss of money to nation from govt to pockets of people to back to govt(tax)..so u can stop being a paranoid

INDIA CAN AFFORD CARRIER,OTHERWISE THERE WOULDNT BE ANY INDIA TO SUPPORT EVEN A MOSQUITO
#CHINAISRISING

 

[asianobserve]

The USN do operate frigates, Oliver Hazard Perry (OHP) class. And it is in the process of acquiring 20 frigates under its FFG(X) Program to replace the OHP class:

Austal's FFG(X) entrant

 

[Bhurki]

First of all 8bn money is spread over 10 years time,that is how long aircar takes to be built
second india doesnt need 100k a/c,you are overthinking

Navy's capex budget for ships in 2018-2019 is 12000 crore...
$8B spread over 10 years is still 5500 crore per year. Do you want almost half of entire ship procure budget to go to a single carrier which will fructify in a decade? While taking money away from subs, destroyers, frigates?.

 

[vampyrbladez]

Navy's capex budget for ships in 2018-2019 is 12000 crore...
$8B spread over 10 years is still 5500 crore per year. Do you want almost half of entire ship procure budget to go to a single carrier which will fructify in a decade? While taking money away from subs, destroyers, frigates?.

Simply build another Vikrant Class. Then after the third one is ready, INS Vishal is to be needed.

 

[Bhurki]

Simply build another Vikrant Class. Then after the third one is ready, INS Vishal is to be needed.

Than will lock IN into stobar regime for the next 30-40 years..
Stobar means no strike package, awacs, being limited to short range air defense role.