Did Islam Ruin Afghanistan ?

[Pratap]

@bennedose

So while the Islam connection is strong - it is not islam that cretaed the mess in Afghanistan, but Islam as used by Pakistani generals and leaders to play geopolitical games and ally with a US that does not give a flying fuk whether islam or Muslims are happy or are suffering as long as their Pakistani slave army is doing their job.

Would Pakistanis have been able to do this without Islam? Give me break with this"islam is fine, its interpretation is wrong".
Islam has a 1400 years of history not just years under Zahir shah and Shah Reza Pehlavi. The other day you were talking about how I was ignorant about history, read Afghan brutality in Mathura during Ahmed Shah Abdali's invasion. There was" no cold war or wily British supported by Pakistani stooges" in 1200-1800 AD.
If a nation has a brutal history of one thousand years, showing some photos of 70s when there were some night clubs in Afghanistan will not work.

 

[TrueSpirit1]

Nothing. Islam accompanied by brutal Pashtun expansion resulted in destruction of Indo Aryan speakers like Hindkos and Kaffirs of Nuristan.
Hindu culture was mercilessly destroyed in Afghanistan by Pashtuns who are invaders there in first place.

Who are Pashtuns originally ? I mean, racially, genetically & anthropology-wise ?

How did they emerge on the scene out of nowhere in early medieval-age & why is so little known about them beyond the past 1 millennium ?

What is it that differentiates them from other tribes/clans inhabiting Central Asian regions ?

How & when did Pakhtoonwali emerge & why has it survived to this date ?

Why are Paktoons such fanatic Islamist ?

 

[Razor]

Nothing. Islam accompanied by brutal Pashtun expansion resulted in destruction of Indo Aryan speakers like Hindkos and Kaffirs of Nuristan.
Hindu culture was mercilessly destroyed in Afghanistan by Pashtuns who are invaders there in first place.

There is a tiny population (around 5k) of Kalash in the near Chitral area that seem to have resisted.

 

[shinoj]

The problem with Afghanistan was it never had a Native hindu Warrior Class. While North India had Rajputs, Westerns India had Maratha, Southern India had their Own Martial Classes like Nairs,Nambiars and Vaniyars.

While Hinduism prevailed in Afghanistan for a Time, it never had indigenous Local Clan who would fight against Mughals. There were some Khatriyas but really their Base was further east to Afghanistan to regions like Punjab.

 

[Bhadra]

Afghanistan got destroyed due to its geopolical location hemmed between major historical cross currents and movements of History. Specially strong cross currents of Mongol Civilisation, Persian Civilisation and Turk ascendency in past perirod. In Recent times, it got destroyed due to desire of USSR to dominate it to protect their CAR and similar needs of USA to get access to enegy rich region. in most of the time and in most of the discusions, people neglect the Suads and their petro dollar power to spread their version of Wahabi Islam in the region essentially to counter the strong Shia desire to dominate the oil world.

In future, may get destroyed due to ambitions of China, India and Iran.

Pakistan is only a mercenary force being used by any one who has money. They lend themselves to any one who could pay them whether it was Greeks who paid Humby, and later Mauryas, Huns, Kushanas, Budhists, Ghories, Gazanavies, Rajputs, Afghans or Pathan paid them for their mercinary jobs. Later they lend themselves to Mughals, Sikhs, British, USA and now China.

If radical and fundamentalist Islam was used by Pakistan during Jihad against USSR, that was largely due to Saudi influence and money and Pakistani mixing their evil designs on the country which was their long standing problem and tormentor. The historical and collective memory of rape, plunder, arson and subjugation is strong amonst the Pakistani Pakjabies and they shever even today at the mere mention of Pakhtoons and Afghan Pathans.

Hence basic Thesis " Did Islam Ruin Afghanisatn? " is flawed .

One can raise a similar question " Did Hinduism destroy India?".. or better " Did Islam ruin India?"

or did Budhism destroy Tibet ?

Yes, this question" IS iSLAM DESTROYING PAKISTAN?" would be very pertinent for the current time. A nascent state created in the name of Islam where Islamic fundamentalism and Islam being used as a token of Identity has almost destroyed that country... the converts are now claiming to be father of the prophet !

Otherwise, see hundreds of other states and countries where Islam is followed but Islam is not their basic and fundamental identity. The Turks, Persians, Iraqies, Quwait, Arab world etc etc have their fundamental identity. They are Egyptians or Libiyans first and Muslims second. But the only country in the world who are Muslims first is Pakistan ( Tum Seikh bhi ho, Mirza bhi ho..... par Musalman bhi ho ?).

Even Afghans have their own identity but not Pakistan. If they look for their basic identity they will find they were Indians and Hindus. A nightmare for them..

 

[shinoj]

Afghanistan got destroyed due to its geopolical location hemmed between major historical cross currents and movements of History. Specially strong cross currents of Mongol Civilisation, Persian Civilisation and Turk ascendency in past perirod. In Recent times, it got destroyed due to desire of USSR to dominate it to protect their CAR and similar needs of USA to get access to enegy rich region. in most of the time and in most of the discusions, people neglect the Suads and their petro dollar power to spread their version of Wahabi Islam in the region essentially to counter the strong Shia desire to dominate the oil world.

In future, may get destroyed due to ambitions of China, India and Iran.

Pakistan is only a mercenary force being used by any one who has money. They lend themselves to any one who could pay them whether it was Greeks who paid Humby, and later Mauryas, Huns, Kushanas, Budhists, Ghories, Gazanavies, Rajputs, Afghans or Pathan paid them for their mercinary jobs. Later they lend themselves to Mughals, Sikhs, British, USA and now China.

If radical and fundamentalist Islam was used by Pakistan during Jihad against USSR, that was largely due to Saudi influence and money and Pakistani mixing their evil designs on the country which was their long standing problem and tormentor. The historical and collective memory of rape, plunder, arson and subjugation is strong amonst the Pakistani Pakjabies and they shever even today at the mere mention of Pakhtoons and Afghan Pathans.

Hence basic Thesis " Did Islam Ruin Afghanisatn? " is flawed .

One can raise a similar question " Did Hinduism destroy India?".. or better " Did Islam ruin India?"

or did Budhism destroy Tibet ?

Yes, this question" IS iSLAM DESTROYING PAKISTAN?" would be very pertinent for the current time. A nascent state created in the name of Islam where Islamic fundamentalism and Islam being used as a token of Identity has almost destroyed that country... the converts are now claiming to be father of the prophet !

Otherwise, see hundreds of other states and countries where Islam is followed but Islam is not their basic and fundamental identity. The Turks, Persians, Iraqies, Quwait, Arab world etc etc have their fundamental identity. They are Egyptians or Libiyans first and Muslims second. But the only country in the world who are Muslims first is Pakistan ( Tum Seikh bhi ho, Mirza bhi ho..... par Musalman bhi ho ?).

Even Afghans have their own identity but not Pakistan. If they look for their basic identity they will find they were Indians and Hindus. A nightmare for them..

First of all,I understand what you are trying to say is that there are varierty of reasons why Afghanistan is in the ruins today.

Secondly, the Basis of Stupid Counter Questions like "Did Hinduism destroy India" is nothing but utter Nonsens. You need to remember that India's Glorious Pasts , the Past due to which it was called Sone ki Chidiya once, the past due to which Arabs came to Kerala, The past due to which the Europeans Got attracted to India, the Past due to which all the Central Asian Desert thugs came to Plunder India was all due to the greatness of the Hinduism Religion.

And thirdly India is doing fairly well amongst the countries of the World. If i am allowed to categorize all the Nations of the World according to their Overall Development. First might be the Americancs and the Western European Nations and the Next Category would have India. So India is not really Far off from the Top and it doing fairly well. And all it requires is some Nationalist Government, the Government whose Passion is and just is to Develop India to greater Heights and the Well being of the Country is First and Foremost to them. And if such Government comes, i can tell you for sure, india will soon be in the First Category.

So the question you raised "Did Hindusim destroy India" is nothing but utter Nonsense.

 

[shinoj]

If radical and fundamentalist Islam was used by Pakistan during Jihad against USSR, that was largely due to Saudi influence and money and Pakistani mixing their evil designs on the country which was their long standing problem and tormentor. The historical and collective memory of rape, plunder, arson and subjugation is strong amonst the Pakistani Pakjabies and they shever even today at the mere mention of Pakhtoons and Afghan Pathans.

Yes, this question" IS iSLAM DESTROYING PAKISTAN?" would be very pertinent for the current time. A nascent state created in the name of Islam where Islamic fundamentalism and Islam being used as a token of Identity has almost destroyed that country... the converts are now claiming to be father of the prophet !

Otherwise, see hundreds of other states and countries where Islam is followed but Islam is not their basic and fundamental identity. The Turks, Persians, Iraqies, Quwait, Arab world etc etc have their fundamental identity. They are Egyptians or Libiyans first and Muslims second. But the only country in the world who are Muslims first is Pakistan ( Tum Seikh bhi ho, Mirza bhi ho..... par Musalman bhi ho ?).

Even Afghans have their own identity but not Pakistan. If they look for their basic identity they will find they were Indians and Hindus. A nightmare for them..

This raises one quite Important Point. What do people gain from converting from one Religion to Other for no apparent reason other than Death threat to themseleves.

What they gain is live a few Extra years but what they lose is much more. A Confusion amongst its future Generation about its identity,hidden ignominy and shame due to conversion, a loss of pride, Misplaced Pride, total Identity Crisis and much More.

Its better to die a Martyr than be Converted, I think.

 

[Pratap]

The problem with Afghanistan was it never had a Native hindu Warrior Class. While North India had Rajputs, Westerns India had Maratha, Southern India had their Own Martial Classes like Nairs,Nambiars and Vaniyars.

While Hinduism prevailed in Afghanistan for a Time, it never had indigenous Local Clan who would fight against Mughals. There were some Khatriyas but really their Base was further east to Afghanistan to regions like Punjab.

Hinduism did not prevail in Afghanistan for a time, it was actually great centre of Saivism. At a time when few temples of Shiva were there in Kerala , entire Eastern Afghanistan was studded with saiva complexes. Man, Jalalabad was called "Nagarhara" which means Nagari of Har or city of Shiva.(Nagar is sanskrit for city). Even now, Nangarhara is name of province in Afghanistan.
The problem with Afghanistan was that it was too small and if Sahansahi and Byzantine dynasties collapsed before Ghazis, how could you expect small Chiefdoms of Hindus resisting Islam. Even then, Andre Wink calls resistance as better than in Iranian areas.

 

[Pratap]

This raises one quite Important Point. What do people gain from converting from one Religion to Other for no apparent reason other than Death threat to themseleves.

What they gain is live a few Extra years but what they lose is much more. A Confusion amongst its future Generation about its identity,hidden ignominy and shame due to conversion, a loss of pride, Misplaced Pride, total Identity Crisis and much More.

Its better to die a Martyr than be Converted, I think.

I agree with your thoughts completely.

 

[bose]

My intension is not to be disrespectful to Afghans here... the same Afghanistan has brought about in numerable Sufferings, Plundering & Sacrilege of many religious places, history is full of it ... the present day Afghanistan is in atonement of the sins of their for fathers... the tears and blood of victims through the several centuries bound to come back to them"¦

 

[Bhadra]

First of all,I understand what you are trying to say is that there are varierty of reasons why Afghanistan is in the ruins today.

Secondly, the Basis of Stupid Counter Questions like "Did Hinduism destroy India" is nothing but utter Nonsens. You need to remember that India's Glorious Pasts , the Past due to which it was called Sone ki Chidiya once, the past due to which Arabs came to Kerala, The past due to which the Europeans Got attracted to India, the Past due to which all the Central Asian Desert thugs came to Plunder India was all due to the greatness of the Hinduism Religion.

And thirdly India is doing fairly well amongst the countries of the World. If i am allowed to categorize all the Nations of the World according to their Overall Development. First might be the Americancs and the Western European Nations and the Next Category would have India. So India is not really Far off from the Top and it doing fairly well. And all it requires is some Nationalist Government, the Government whose Passion is and just is to Develop India to greater Heights and the Well being of the Country is First and Foremost to them. And if such Government comes, i can tell you for sure, india will soon be in the First Category.

So the question you raised "Did Hindusim destroy India" is nothing but utter Nonsense.

The question for you has got buttstuck ? The question is simply a counterquestion to bring some sanity to a "buttstuck guy like you who do not understand that religion is not every thing.

And if I start arguing, I can prove that Hinduism is the cause of every problem of India ?

But we do not argue here just for the sake of it...

Ok Child....

 

[Bhadra]

My intension is not to be disrespectful to Afghans here... the same Afghanistan has brought about in numerable Sufferings, Plundering & Sacrilege of many religious places, history is full of it ... the present day Afghanistan is in atonement of the sins of their for fathers... the tears and blood of victims through the several centuries bound to come back to them"¦

Ha Ha Ha ... you must be simply refering to the story " Kabuliwala" and the the gunda pathan in that who keeps going to his Sasural time and again..

 

[bennedose]

By the time Afghanistan was overrun by Islamic hordes it was largely Buddhist - so lets quit this nonsense about a great Hindu civilization that was replaced by Islam. That great Hindu civilization had already vacated space to Buddhists. The Persian empire had its eyes on "India" right from 1000 BC - but in many old accounts anyone who got up to the Indus was said to have got to India. From Afghanistan invaders repeatedly raped the area that was Pakistan. The history of Punjab is one of a people who constantly lost all battles and kowtowed to every invader until Ranjit Singh arrived.

So the area called Afghanistan has been ruled by the Persian Zoroastrian emperor Darius, later Ashoka and still later Greeks and later the Islamic hordes. Perhaps "civilization" ended after Ashoka but all the same Afghanistan served as strong base for Islamic kings to come and rape and loot what is now Pakistan. Ghazna in Afghanistan was the capital of the Ghaznavids - who ruled up to Lahore - and whose illegitimate children are now Pakistanis who worship them. But Afghanistan was then home to a big empire under the Turkic Islamic hordes. Both the Afghanistan and Pakistan area have only declined as civilizations in the 1300 years after Islam came, but by the same token, Hindus and Buddhists have only been driven away - so saying that Afghanistan got worse after Islam came is a sour grapes statement. The point really is why focus on the decline of Afghanistan when the area called Pakistan were always losers and remain that way even today.

And when you talk of decline in civilization why leave out Uttar Pradesh and Bihar? As if civilization has survived in these states. Someone please point out what parts of the ancient Indian civilization survived untouched in the area called Uttar Pradesh.

 

[Peter]

Guys you may have your own views but I do not understand how you can say that a religion can ruin a nation.If Islam had ruined Afghanistan how about places like Turkey,Saudi Arabia etc.These countries are not ruined.Also the European countries like Spain,UK,France,Germany etc have been predominantly Christian.These countries have higher GDP than us.Does that mean Christianity has led to the prosperity of these countries?No,of course not.The people of these countries had been hard working.Also they were lucky that they did not get invaded and their geographic location meant that the flow of technology could reach them earlier than us.On the contrary to these countries there are other christian nations in Africa which are undeveloped.So religion definitely does not play a role in the ruin and destruction of a country.What matters are the nation`s leaders,its people`s hard work and a bit of luck.

(P.S. Do you think our country,despite being a Hindu majority one, can ever progress if it has leaders like Lalu Prasad Yadav etc at its helm?)

 

[bose]

Ha Ha Ha ... you must be simply refering to the story " Kabuliwala" and the the gunda pathan in that who keeps going to his Sasural time and again..

Yes it is reflected there too in much subtle way...

 

[Pratap]

@TrueSpirit1

Who are Pashtuns originally ? I mean, racially, genetically & anthropology-wise ?

The identity of any group is primarily linguistic and going by this benchmark, Pashtuns are speakers of a language which comes under Iranian group.
This does not mean that it is not different, basically Pashto is a north east Iranian language unlike Persian which is western item of larger Iranian group. Hence, Kurdish, Baloch and Persian are as much related as Oriya, Bengali and Assamese but Pashto is quite different. Just as modern day Hindi is descendant of Prakrit of Mauryan times, similarly Pashto is descendant of language spoken by Central Asiatic Scythians.

Anthropologically, Pashtuns are not that different from other Indic groups of same region. So a Saraiki like Shah Mahmud Kuraishi would fit in easily among Pashtuns. However, to be precise, Pashtuns are actually a mixed group( all are mixed but some are more and mixing occurs in recent times) of existing Indo Aryans like Hindkos and incoming invading groups like wakhan . So, it seems that an Iranian nomadic group attacked Indo Aryan society of Gandhara, killed lot of them, took women and assimilated them into their own identity.

Genetically, ASI( Ancestral south Indian) which is purely indigenous and is unique to India existing as high as 85-90 percent among South Indian tribals, is lowest in Pashtuns( now, sir if you apply your mind even little bit you would know that what I said about them being half descendants of Indo Aryans would be true) with it ranging anywhere between 10-30 pc with 20 being average.
20 Percent ASI is not a small Indic component when you realize that Punjabis have it only around 30-35 and no one doubts about Indic character of Punjabis.
Rest of their ancestry is also related to Indians. A pashtun may look remarkably different from an average man of Uttar Pradesh but shares 40 percent of his ancestry with him.

How did they emerge on the scene out of nowhere in early medieval-age & why is so little known about them beyond the past 1 millennium ?

The area where they emerged was our own, we did not keep records( Indians hate history writing and this is evident from this forum), they(pashtuns) were nomadic so no question of much records. Anyway, nomadic groups changing language of any region is often shrouded in mystery. For instance, we do not know how Turkicization of Anatolia took place in precise manner.

What is it that differentiates them from other tribes/clans inhabiting Central Asian regions

Let us list some clans of central Asia.please do not use term central asia for Gandhara where these brutal Pashtuns live. Gandhara was, is and will always be indic.

1. Tajiks- nothing but Persians living in western , northern Afghanistan and Sogdiana. Tajik language is same as " Farsi"
2. Kazakhs- They are turks of kipchak group
3. Kirghiz- Turks of kipchak group just like Kazakh but have an older history
4. Hazaras- Descendants of Mongol soldiers in Afghanistan and are mongoloid.
5. Uzbek- Turks who are genetically Persians mixed with Mongoloid Turks. Uzbek language is related to Chagatai( the language in which Babur wrote his autobiography) and Uighurs

6. Turkmen- Turks of great Oguzz tribe. The Ottomans and Safavids spoke languages belonging to Oguzz group .

7. Baloch- Western Iranians like Kurds.

8. Wakhan- Allied group to Pashtuns

9. Yagnobis- Iranians of old sogdian variety.


All these central asian clans are united by Islam and Persian culture. Pashtuns are most Indic among them as they have high ASI and live in lands east of Kabul river primarily.

How & when did Pakhtoonwali emerge & why has it survived to this date

I am yet to read on this so sorry for not replying.

Why are Paktoons such fanatic Islamist

For same reason why Arabs of Yemen and Saudi Arabia are more fanatic than those of Egypt.

 

[shinoj]

The question for you has got buttstuck ? The question is simply a counterquestion to bring some sanity to a "buttstuck guy like you who do not understand that religion is not every thing.

And if I start arguing, I can prove that Hinduism is the cause of every problem of India ?

But we do not argue here just for the sake of it...

Ok Child....

Nonsense and its childish. Debate if you have any real points anyday...

 

[Pratap]

@bennedose

And when you talk of decline in civilization why leave out Uttar Pradesh and Bihar? As if civilization has survived in these states. Someone please point out what parts of the ancient Indian civilization survived untouched in the area called Uttar Pradesh.

So just because we are poor, we have no civilization? Do not have time but will crush your arguments in your laughable post.

 

[Mad Indian]

What they gain is live a few Extra years but what they lose is much more. A Confusion amongst its future Generation about its identity,hidden ignominy and shame due to conversion, a loss of pride, Misplaced Pride, total Identity Crisis and much More.

You think they should rather die and not have any children/future generation in the first place than convert? Seems logical enough

 

[bennedose]

Guys you may have your own views but I do not understand how you can say that a religion can ruin a nation.If Islam had ruined Afghanistan how about places like Turkey,Saudi Arabia etc.These countries are not ruined.Also the European countries like Spain,UK,France,Germany etc have been predominantly Christian.These countries have higher GDP than us.Does that mean Christianity has led to the prosperity of these countries?No,of course not.The people of these countries had been hard working.Also they were lucky that they did not get invaded and their geographic location meant that the flow of technology could reach them earlier than us.On the contrary to these countries there are other christian nations in Africa which are undeveloped.So religion definitely does not play a role in the ruin and destruction of a country.What matters are the nation`s leaders,its people hard work and a bit of luck.

(P.S. Do you think our country,despite being a Hindu majority one, can ever progress if it has leaders like Lalu Prasad Yadav etc at its helm?)

If Islam ruined Afghanistan it is fair to say that it also ruined Uttar Pradesh which has still not recovered. The moot point is which is the loser civilization here?