Design and Engineering of Agni VI missile is finished

[warrior monk]

But without testing in actual one cant predict which design would work in actual working condition? Do you think India will arm it missile with payloads of different designs and will pray or hope that at least one should work? Without testing that would be costly! India I think should junk PTBT(space). And conduct tests under umbrella of pusher type nuclear propulsion. They can make US-Russia partner in that venture

Multi megatonne warheads is a foregone conclusion without testing . But we have made 200 kt warheads of POK2 design which we tested on 11th may at 43 kt yield . Though i am a huge supporter of sub critical testing of warheads and making credible stewardship program for our staged implosion device this is where hydrodynamic test facilities and ICF facilities come in .

India's ICF facility
Experiments both on direct drive and indirect-drive targets which includes random phase plate , spectral dispersion , induced spatial incoherence etc for direct drive and ion beams to X-ray conversion for uniform radiation conversion for indirect drive experiments.
The Laser matter interaction Group of BARC, has been involved in studies of extremely high temperature laser-produced plasmas and ultra-high pressure laser-driven shock waves.
Barc has developed LTE and non-LTE models for radiation hydrodynamics. Radiation opacities and emissivities are essential data for any high density high temperature plasma
simulations and have developed computational model for themwhich are used to investigate the opacities of composite targets . Barc Nd:Glass laser chain capable of producing laser pulses of 300-800 picoseconds duration and maximum single pulse energy the focused laser intensity on targets is in the range > 10 ^15 W/Cm2 which enebles us to study the hydrodynamic phenomena and diagnostics used to study such plasma .

 

[warrior monk]

So far, India hasn't set up the satellites system to monitor the movement of Pakistan's strategic asset 24x7, so India would have no idea where the Pakistan's missile is at the time and where it will be in 5 minutes

We may not tracking capability currently for 24 hrs continuous tracking but we can track them through our SAR satellites and other remote sensing satellites once in every 40 mins . We have both X band and C band SAR with 3 meter fine resolution mode 10km swath in Spot mode, 240km swath in Scan mode .

Old Indian satellite Cartosat 3d spectral view of Khed Gujrat from National remote sensing agency of India

We can count the number of trees actually the government of India does that every year and you think with a slight tilting of lenses we don't take a peek of Porkland.

For the old missile like Prithvi, you will need hours if not a day to get them ready. When it is ready, there is big chance Pakistan's new solid missiles will be ready as well if both of you haven't receive the call from white house;

Prithvi is not going to be used on Pakiland only solid fueled missiles don't worry.

 

[sasum]

Yes, it can hit multiple target if they are not very much geographically apart. Say more than 1000 k m.

MIRVs don't have their own propellants. 1000 kms too much distance to glide down.

Minuteman III MIRV launch sequence: 1. The missile launches out of its silo by firing its first-stage boost motor (A). 2. About 60 seconds after launch, the 1st stage drops off and the second-stage motor (B) ignites. The missile shroud (E) is ejected. 3. About 120 seconds after launch, the third-stage motor (C) ignites and separates from the 2nd stage. 4. About 180 seconds after launch, third-stage thrust terminates and the post-boost vehicle (D) separates from the rocket. 5. The post-boost vehicle maneuvers itself and prepares for reentry vehicle (RV) deployment. 6. While the post-boost vehicle backs away, the RVs, decoys, and chaff are deployed (this may occur during ascent). 7. The RVs and chaff reenter the atmosphere at high speeds and are armed in flight. 8. The nuclear warheads detonate, either as air bursts or ground bursts.

The precise technical details are closely guarded military secrets, to hinder any development of enemy counter-measures. The bus' on-board propellant limits the distances between targets of individual warheads to perhaps a few hundred kilometers.[5] Some warheads may use small hypersonic airfoils during the descent to gain additional cross-range distance.

 

[HariPrasad-1]

MIRVs don't have their own propellants. 1000 kms too much distance to glide down.

Minuteman III MIRV launch sequence: 1. The missile launches out of its silo by firing its first-stage boost motor (A). 2. About 60 seconds after launch, the 1st stage drops off and the second-stage motor (B) ignites. The missile shroud (E) is ejected. 3. About 120 seconds after launch, the third-stage motor (C) ignites and separates from the 2nd stage. 4. About 180 seconds after launch, third-stage thrust terminates and the post-boost vehicle (D) separates from the rocket. 5. The post-boost vehicle maneuvers itself and prepares for reentry vehicle (RV) deployment. 6. While the post-boost vehicle backs away, the RVs, decoys, and chaff are deployed (this may occur during ascent). 7. The RVs and chaff reenter the atmosphere at high speeds and are armed in flight. 8. The nuclear warheads detonate, either as air bursts or ground bursts.

The precise technical details are closely guarded military secrets, to hinder any development of enemy counter-measures. The bus' on-board propellant limits the distances between targets of individual warheads to perhaps a few hundred kilometers.[5] Some warheads may use small hypersonic airfoils during the descent to gain additional cross-range distance.

I am referring to an interview with avinash chander where he stated that simulation has shown that MIRV can glide further 1000 KM after release from mother vehicle.

 

[warrior monk]

I am referring to an interview with avinash chander where he stated that simulation has shown that MIRV can glide further 1000 KM after release from mother vehicle.

Thats the control vehicle which glides which is normal for a MIRV.

 

[Indx TechStyle]

porki land my friend
........................................

Even Agni 5 isn't for porkis. Agni 2 and Nirbhay are enough for them.
Yet we can launch an Agni 5 from Andman & Nicobar Islands if they want.

 

[AnantS]

Multi megatonne warheads is a foregone conclusion without testing . But we have made 200 kt warheads of POK2 design which we tested on 11th may at 43 kt yield . Though i am a huge supporter of sub critical testing of warheads and making credible stewardship program for our staged implosion device this is where hydrodynamic test facilities and ICF facilities come in .

The 200 KT is one which is also under suspect. The clouds of doubts raised within BARC community (K Sanathanan vs Kakodkar episode)neither raises confidence within India nor raises enough fear in adversary. India was under sanctions for years, yet it did not use oppurtunity to fine tune their design and test more. The dithering at that time is costing India a lot.

I am not an expert but seriously from my extremely limited science background, no matter how perfect your individual component testing is thorough, Complete testing after integration of components, always throws some nasty surprises.

So sub-critical testing without having huge test yield result bank collected numerous testing like US, Russia or even China, to my noob mind I am not sure how it will help India

 

[AnantS]

Thats the control vehicle which glides which is normal for a MIRV.

I thought India was working on MARV ? And how far the MARV's get spread out, doesn't that really depend on at what height and at what stage of trajectory, the MARVs are released from last stage and how small rocket motors within MARV's, slightly alter their individual re-entry trajectory for better spread out?

But again(imvho) in India's case due to relatively small yield warheads they will mainly use MARV's to hit a single large metropils but at different points such that they cover whole city??

OT: Arun S Vishvakarma doesn't post much now but his prediction have been fairly accurate in the past about Indian missile program's future evolution path. Wonder what is his latest asessment

 

[sasum]

The 200 KT is one which is also under suspect. The clouds of doubts raised within BARC community (K Sanathanan vs Kakodkar episode)neither raises confidence within India nor raises enough fear in adversary. India was under sanctions for years, yet it did not use oppurtunity to fine tune their design and test more. The dithering at that time is costing India a lot.

I am not an expert but seriously from my extremely limited science background, no matter how perfect your individual component testing is thorough, Complete testing after integration of components, always throws some nasty surprises.

So sub-critical testing without having huge test yield result bank collected numerous testing like US, Russia or even China, to my noob mind I am not sure how it will help India

I somewhat agree. Kakodar advised
self-imposed moratorium on nuclear tests, telling Govt, computer simulation can correctly assess yield. This is a fallacy. In life science, we have seen so many promising results in petri-dish experiments around the world only to fail in human trial !!

 

[sasum]

I thought India was working on MARV ? And how far the MARV's get spread out, doesn't that really depend on at what height and at what stage of trajectory, the MARVs are released from last stage and how small rocket motors within MARV's, slightly alter their individual re-entry trajectory for better spread out?

But again(imvho) in India's case due to relatively small yield warheads they will mainly use MARV's to hit a single large metropils but at different points such that they cover whole city??

OT: Arun S Vishvakarma doesn't post much now but his prediction have been fairly accurate in the past about Indian missile program's future evolution path. Wonder what is his latest asessment

Talking of MARV, can anyone give details of failed "Trishul" surface-to-air missile project? I thought DRDO flirted with MARV but could not understand the complexity. DRDO scientists studied US's Pershing II missile system inside out.

 

[warrior monk]

I thought India was working on MARV ? And how far the MARV's get spread out, doesn't that really depend on at what height and at what stage of trajectory, the MARVs are released from last stage and how small rocket motors within MARV's, slightly alter their individual re-entry trajectory for better spread out?

But again(imvho) in India's case due to relatively small yield warheads they will mainly use MARV's to hit a single large metropils but at different points such that they cover whole city??

OT: Arun S Vishvakarma doesn't post much now but his prediction have been fairly accurate in the past about Indian missile program's future evolution path. Wonder what is his latest asessment

MARV will be tested along with MIRV sequential launch adapters , but Maneuvering of the re-entry vehicle will be tested first then comes the maneuvering of the individual warheads through the controlling fin in future . Yes the vernier rockets will control the bus during re entry and the warhead distance traveled is apogee dependent . If fired in STOF (Short time of flight ) depressed trajectory then it is the most difficult thing to maneuver especially in sub 90 km apogee the MaRV will be the toughest test of DRDO. The MIRV missile bus containing the MARVs will have depressed trajectory of less than 90 kms apogee for hitting a single urban agglomeration with multiple warheads again a very tough job .

 

[warrior monk]

The 200 KT is one which is also under suspect. The clouds of doubts raised within BARC community (K Sanathanan vs Kakodkar episode)neither raises confidence within India nor raises enough fear in adversary. India was under sanctions for years, yet it did not use oppurtunity to fine tune their design and test more. The dithering at that time is costing India a lot.

I am not an expert but seriously from my extremely limited science background, no matter how perfect your individual component testing is thorough, Complete testing after integration of components, always throws some nasty surprises.

So sub-critical testing without having huge test yield result bank collected numerous testing like US, Russia or even China, to my noob mind I am not sure how it will help India

What Santhanam said was partly true and partly hyperbole . He was true when he said that 30 to 40 % of lithium 6 secondary was left which was true in fact I would be suprised if we had more than 40 % secondary burn . His claim of not giving a yield of 55kt for 11 th may was because the Shaft was not completely destroyed .

The Shaft will be destroyed when the nuclear explosive is shallowly buried and it happen by two ways the confinement of the soil above causes more energy to be directed downward enhancing the compaction process, and at the same time the confining soil is blown upwards and outwards by the expanding gas, most of it falling to earth some distance from the craters.

It all depends upon burial depth which is directly proportional to confinement effect and the amount of material lofted by the upwardly expanding gases. The average velocity of the material propelled upwards decreases as its mass increases but at high burial depth and fired near water table the destruction of shaft is not possible especially for a 43 kt device.

As scaled depths become greater the shock acceleration decreases and the spalling effect weakens and no retarc is formed or shafts destroyed.

Second the nuclear yield seismic results by sikka et al of regional Lg and Rayleigh wave.

The Mb , Ms and yield M=C1 +C2LogY where Y is yield where C1 and C2 are site specific and factoring in the destructive interference due to two devices being fired simultaneously suitable changes were have to be made in Mb calculation.

The second method post shot radioactivity using gamma-ray spectrometric measurements for the gamma-ray peaks due to fission and activation products. The measured radioactivities of fission products were used to arrive at the number of fission per gram of the sample using the appropriate fission yields , the activity of these 14 MeV neutron activation products and the isotopes were done and found to be 50 kt +-10 for POK1.

The fission to fusion products could not be provided as it would reveal bomb signature .

The CORRTEX result also used for yield calculation was also not reveled due to classified nature of it.


Now comming to Santhanam’s allegation of incomplete lithium 6 burn which is correct by the way which still dosen’t prove we don’t have a thermonuclear weapon . Even one percent secondary burn is thermonuclear but its not a clean device Santhanam says we had 30 % lithium 6 left over which means 70 % burnt and then he claims we don’t have staged radiation implosion device is outrageous.

With even 50 % lithium 6 burn and boosting it with fissile tamper ( which we probably didn’t use in 98) and improved radiation transport which our KALI flash X-ray system in our hydrodynamic test facility I don’t see why we can’t get 200 kt device hell even higher upto 500 kt but due to lack of testing it will consume large number of fissile material and will be heavier which Agni -5 may not be able to launch.


Complete testing of the complete warhead will always throw a nasty suprise but 95% of the work can be done in a laboratory . Most of the great powers like US haven't tested in nearly 30 years the half life of tritium for warhead boosting is 12.5 years which is used in primary by every country having thermonuclear weapons including India , US even might have brought tritium gas from India for its thermonuclear weapons as India is the largest producer of tritium gas in the world . That means every country will have ti dis assemble their thermonuclear weapons every weapons every 12.5 years otherwise they might fizzle. So all weapons created in 1970s and even 1980s which is 95 % of all the warheads by the p5 countries is in doubt if the warheads are not dis assembled and retested in laboratory condition.
As far as megatonne yield nuclear warhead is considered only 5 % or even less that of American warheads is more than one megatonne yield and its reliability reduces after 30 years or so as it is a multistage device Everyone has to find a way to component test their device in laboratory . .

 

[AnantS]

Excellent post @warrior monk monk

 

[Kshatriya87]

Even Agni 5 isn't for porkis. Agni 2 and Nirbhay are enough for them.
Yet we can launch an Agni 5 from Andman & Nicobar Islands if they want.

No no. I'm not talking about range. I'm not about the MIRV capability. Just one Agni - V can cause massacre in porkistan.

 

[no smoking]

Multi megatonne warheads is a foregone conclusion without testing . But we have made 200 kt warheads of POK2 design which we tested on 11th may at 43 kt yield . Though i am a huge supporter of sub critical testing of warheads and making credible stewardship program for our staged implosion device this is where hydrodynamic test facilities and ICF facilities come in .

India's ICF facility
Experiments both on direct drive and indirect-drive targets which includes random phase plate , spectral dispersion , induced spatial incoherence etc for direct drive and ion beams to X-ray conversion for uniform radiation conversion for indirect drive experiments.
..... diagnostics used to study such plasma .


View attachment 7682

The picture you put seems not right, too small. More like a conceptual model.
Here is Chinese equipment built in 1982:

http://war.163.com/15/0924/11/B499EQSM00014OMD.html

Look at the first picture.

Can you please provide any source about India's simulator?

 

[no smoking]

Complete testing of the complete warhead will always throw a nasty suprise but 95% of the work can be done in a laboratory .

That 5% makes the difference between live and death. Nuclear weapon is too important to tolerate any nasty surprise. I really don't think Indian government would like to hear that their strategic weapon may not work as much as expected.

Most of the great powers like US haven't tested in nearly 30 years the half life of tritium for warhead boosting is 12.5 years which is used in primary by every country having thermonuclear weapons including India , US even might have brought tritium gas from India for its thermonuclear weapons as India is the largest producer of tritium gas in the world . That means every country will have ti dis assemble their thermonuclear weapons every weapons every 12.5 years otherwise they might fizzle. So all weapons created in 1970s and even 1980s which is 95 % of all the warheads by the p5 countries is in doubt if the warheads are not dis assembled and retested in laboratory condition.

That is different! All P5 have tested their aged bomb which reached 12.5 years. They collected enough data from the explosion. So they know how time will influence the effectiveness of their warhead, they developed the method of maintenance, they also exploded those bomb after maintenance. They have great confidence of their bomb after extension. For countries like India, Pakistan, the only choice is: dissemble the expired bomb and build a new one.

As far as megatonne yield nuclear warhead is considered only 5 % or even less that of American warheads is more than one megatonne yield and its reliability reduces after 30 years or so as it is a multistage device Everyone has to find a way to component test their device in laboratory . .

That is not the case at all.
For Americans, their simulation was clarified by hundreds of nuclear tests.
For India, your simulation, after set up, has not got chance to test yet.
There is a reason that those simulation took every one of P5 20-30 years to develop.

 

[HariPrasad-1]

Now we must move to hardware realization stage. so that we may test Agni VI in 2017 as intended.

 

[warrior monk]

The picture you put seems not right, too small. More like a conceptual model.
Here is Chinese equipment built in 1982:

You seem to be confused my friend I was telling about India's efforts on inertial confinement fusion (ICF) experiments which are based on the concept of indirect-drive with enhanced smoothening devices like
like spectral dispersion , random phase plate induced spatial incoherence for indirect drive which are used to convert the incident laser or ion beams to soft X rays and then use these radiation to drive the target hohlraum .
This indirect drive system will be used for experiments on equation of state measurements are essentially using the hohlraum as a source of soft X-rays to drive the shock wave in the material .
We also used alternate method of capacitor bank driven imploding plasma liners finally aim to convert the energy into hohlraums .
These are work being done in India on hydrodynamics driven by hohlraum radiation .
these are part of a group which is studying ICF (Thermonuclear).

What you showed me China's progress on LIA for radiography as of 2014-15 which works in burst mode for generation of flash X rays for you know. We also have that
We actually have two systems
1 ) Single burst KALI -5000 (No it is not a flying dildo or an imaginary laser to shoot down ICBMs which kids in defence forums talk about or defence journalist create make belief weapon out off)
Kali is a VIRCATOR which we started to build in 1980 or 1982 which gives rise to an oscillation of electrons between the cathode and virtual cathode it is used to generate flash X-Rays which your Chinese system seems to do albeit in a different way Power rating is nearly similar.

An old early1990s pic leaked about it it is much advanced now.

2) We also have a LIA project which works in pulse power mode mode as of 2007 it was 40% complete .
with satisfactory performance of all the sub-systems including solid state power modulator, amorphous core based pulsed transformers, magnetic switches, water capacitors, water pulse- forming line, induction adder and field-emission diode . Its development started in 1980s . currently it is not complete kudos to China for completing your project we will take another 6 to 8 years atleast to complete.

See we have two systems in place, while you showed me one but it was complete recently . Sorry I can't provide you with any links as our govt wants to keep this under wraps , No journalist in India will print this as there are no scantily clad ladies in it even think tanks don't touch it as it is high energy physics and mathematics . Most of these are found in research papers which you can find in your library or behind paywall on internet some scant information can be gleaned from abstracts which may be available on internet .
These are peer reviewed journals where these research papers are presented so other countries know about our capabilities.

 

[warrior monk]

That 5% makes the difference between live and death. Nuclear weapon is too important to tolerate any nasty surprise. I really don't think Indian government would like to hear that their strategic weapon may not work as much as expected.

Don't worry we are planning to bridge even that gap as our hydrodynamic simulation is being done which is fairly advanced and databases on equation of state, particle interaction cross-sections , radiative opacity etc is going on . Once these we will be able to bridge the gap . The most important thing in a thermonuclear bomb is radiative transfer of power from primary to secondary which implodes the secondary by breaching the coulomb barrier without destroying it with the energy of primary which we can work in the lab we can create the radiation shock which compresses and pushes the tamper inward , this shock will be created in lab we will compress deuterium in lab without using primary this system will allowing the compression shock to converge in the center of the fuel, creating extremely high temperatures and in a very small volume of fuel. A combustion wave then spreads from the center to the remaining fuel in the near future completing the full 100 % don't worry.

Rest of the components can be tested

That is different! All P5 have tested their aged bomb which reached 12.5 years. They collected enough data from the explosion. So they know how time will influence the effectiveness of their warhead, they developed the method of maintenance, they also exploded those bomb after maintenance. They have great confidence of their bomb after extension. For countries like India, Pakistan, the only choice is: dissemble the expired bomb and build a new one.

.

Aged arsenal testing began in 80s and US was the pioneer in it other countries didn't even start it as they thought they can test till eternity LoL. India also had created weapon after 74 as we were procuring berrylium for tamper in late 1970s but were not successful only in early 80s we got it and then we started our development of thermonuclear weapon which was probably ready by 84 but couldn't test it so we started the above projects for laboratary testing of thermo nukes as our scientists thought we will never be able to test a thermo nuke as our politicians are losers no wonder our thermonuclear simulation preparation is nearly as advanced as p 5 countries.
Don't equate us with Pakistan its an insult

That is not the case at all.
For Americans, their simulation was clarified by hundreds of nuclear tests.
For India, your simulation, after set up, has not got chance to test yet.
There is a reason that those simulation took every one of P5 20-30 years to develop.

Super computers with the help of the above equipment can and will generate data points which you can get from million tests in a few days that doesn't mean any country with super computers will be able to do that actually they require those high technology laborataries and mathematical and theoretical physics modelling groups to do that. Actually it is much much much easier to test a thermo nuclear weapon minus sanctions then build such top notch equipment and labs which only very very few countries can build .
Only two countries in Asia have such facilities and groups China and India . Japan and South Korea also are working on something like that but they have no military dimension so I am not including them.

 

[no smoking]

Don't worry we are planning to.....fuel in the near future completing the full 100 % don't worry.

Rest of the components can be tested

All these are built on one thing: you did enough actual tests and collected enough datas.

.

Aged arsenal testing began in 80s and US was the pioneer in it other countries didn't even start it as they thought they can test till eternity LoL. India also had created weapon after 74 as we were procuring berrylium for tamper in late 1970s but were not successful only in early 80s we got it and then we started our development of thermonuclear weapon which was probably ready by 84 but couldn't test it so we started the above projects for laboratary testing of thermo nukes as our scientists thought we will never be able to test a thermo nuke as our politicians are losers no wonder our thermonuclear simulation preparation is nearly as advanced as p 5 countries.
Don't equate us with Pakistan its an insult

No, you didn't start building your nuclear weapons until 1998. Before that, all you did was produce all the components necessary for a bomb and stored them as components in laboratory environment. On the other hand, all p5 had their nuclear weapons stored as nuclear weapons in warehouse for decades. There is a very big difference here: you scientists can always check the status of every component and replace the faulty one before assemble while other countries can only access their weapons as whole without dissemble them.

Meanwhile, even if your scientists did as you said, they will find that their work was useless since their original design got some problems which means they will have to change certain part of design and production procedure or technic. As the procedure or technic will be changed, the storing condition and procedure will also need to be change.

Assuming your scientists already sort out all the above, you will still got a problem: how to do the service for an aged bomb. You know most of bomb components have been spoiled by radiation in one bomb. Since you don't want to dissemble the whole bomb and re-produce a new one because it will be too damn expensive, the best way is only replacing those serious enough. So, again, you need to actual explode an aged bomb, comparing to the explosion of the new bomb, analysing the results and develop the service procedure. Then exploding a bomb after the service, see if it reach the effectiveness expected. After all these, you now can extend your bomb's life without dissemble it.

Super computers with the help of the above equipment can and will generate data points which you can get from million tests in a few days that doesn't mean any country with super computers will be able to do that actually they require those high technology laborataries and mathematical and theoretical physics modelling groups to do that. Actually it is much much much easier to test a thermo nuclear weapon minus sanctions then build such top notch equipment and labs which only very very few countries can build .

The only way your super computer can help is you create a correct digital model for her. The only way you can create a correct digital model is your theoretical model is correct. The only way you can verify your theoretical model is: REAL TEST.

Only two countries in Asia have such facilities and groups China and India . Japan and South Korea also are working on something like that but they have no military dimension so I am not including them.

No, those facilities and equipment are easy part, the Japanese and your own scientists have no problem to build them with enough time and fund. The only problem for them is: their simulation programmes are built on assumption while Chinese build on real data collected from full scale tests.

The example I can come up is: drawing a flower.
Chinese drew the flower by watching the flower in real;
Indian is drawing the flower by watching the pictures of flower;
Japanese drew the flower by the description of others.