China To Develop New Carrier-Based Fighters To Replace J-15 Aircraft after numerous accidents

Discussion in 'China' started by Illusive, Jul 6, 2018.

  1. J20!

    J20! Senior Member Senior Member

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    I'm sorry WHAT?

    Just that comment demonstrates the level to which any fanboy is able to reason when jumped up on nationalistic fervor.

    Ignoring, deck space, jet fuel capacity, hanger space, or even just plain old SIZE as deciding factors... Just on sortie generation alone, (A KEY PERFORMANCE INDICATOR FOR ANY CARRIER) any sailor would choose Liaoning/Type 002 over Vikramaditya.

    Vikramaditya is a carrier with its island IN THE MIDDLE OF ITS FLIGHT DECK. It also has a lift right in the middle of the flight deck like many helicopter carriers. It doesn't even have blast deflectors.
     
  2. shiphone

    shiphone Senior Member Senior Member

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    LOL...some idiot should better give the detail about the so called 20% of J15 fleet lost ... let's see who is bitching and moaning? ...BTW, around 30 J15 in service...L

    after so many years , the idiots keep the great BIg-mouth habbit and stupid fact buiding-up in the brain... very pathetic.
     
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2018
  3. J20!

    J20! Senior Member Senior Member

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    Simple, Minnie Chan has no concrete proof of the "2 secret unreported crashes" she alludes to in that article. Additionally, she claims the J15 is being replaced, but there is actual PROOF that not 1 but 2 variants of J15 are being developed in tandem. Even worse, the Chinese Navy is still procuring the jet she claims is being "replaced".

    ie. Lazy reporting. The F35C being developed for the US Navy doesn't translate to the F35C replacing the super hornet. Additional F18E/F's and EA18's are being purchased even as the US Navy develops the F35C. Minnie is a Hong Kong based reporter with a history of being wrong on Chinese Military issues.

    China is developing a carrier-borne fifth generation aircraft. But it is also still developing and procuring the J15. Use your head and not your nationalism.

    Finally, 2 J15's have crashed mate. The crash of 117 in which Cao Xianjian lost his life and the other in which Zhang Chao was seriously injured. Yuan Wei LANDED his jet (serial 104) after a bird strike caused an engine fire. There's video of the strike and pictures of his jet being doused on the tarmac.

    If you're going to claim that there are 2 secret crashes no one knows about like @Armand2REP regularly does, show me the proof. That's called being rational.
     
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2018
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  4. sthf

    sthf Senior Member Senior Member

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    Let me simplify this for you. How do you imagine Minnie Chan is supposed to do that? Do you know how many PLA jets are in service and how many crash each year?

    If you read my post, you'll see that I never talked about the replacement of J-15 so your analogy of F-18 and F-35 was wasted on me.

    Let me simplify this further for you.

    So far 8 MKIs have crashed in its ~18 years of service. I know this because IAF and MOD regardless of the party in charge has to come clean about the crashes. If it doesn't I or anybody who can furnish credible proof can file a PIL in Supreme Court.

    This system of accountability, checks and balances is absent in China. CCP or any Communist government is very well known cover ups.

    So in short, neither you nor Minnie Chan can be absolutely certain how the events have transpired so far. It's your words against her's.


    I looked up the video. You are right, Yuan Wei and his jet have survived. That still provides you with 2 confirmed write offs and 2 unconfirmed in the period of just 3 years.

    This is nothing short of a disaster for China's power projection ambitions.
     
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  5. J20!

    J20! Senior Member Senior Member

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    So your argument is basically "China is a communist country so allegations of secret crashes with 0 evidence must be true". @Armand2REP claimed that a C919 crashed using the same logic.

    Suit yourself mate. I and any other military observer know of two J15's lost. That is by no means a disaster by anyone's books. China's carrier aviation is 5 years old now. 2 out of 32 jets lost in that time is unfortunate, but by no means unexpected.
     
  6. Armand2REP

    Armand2REP CHINI EXPERT Veteran Member

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    SCMP says two air force officials confirm the two other loses. Chinese censors wouldn't let them publish it if they didn't want it known.
     
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  7. jat

    jat Regular Member

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    I agree, there is huge disadvantage to the deck space on Viky on the top deck and below, the island placement and the lone hanger in the middle of the top deck. That being said, the Liaoning has a huge problem, its not deck space or design rather its air wing. Thats a short coming the PLAN has sort out and will seriously reduce combat capability of PLAN CBG. The Viky is almost the same in terms of take off space for fighter space on deck. Its smaller sure, but the launch distance is almost identical. Thats a fact. The Mig-29 does a lot better on short take offs than the Flankers, thats a given. Plus flankers a forced to get a lot heavier to strengthen them for a landing on a carrier. The Russians were quick to jump onto the Mig-29 even though during Soviet times, the Mig-29 was too small to have decent fire power. Also, blast deflectors are not entirely needed if you are not going to work on super carriers. Viky may be able to launch fighters faster than the refurbished Soviet casino. The factor being the RD-33/93 engine performance for interception role.
    what facts? All we have are speculations and rumors. Thats exactly what PLA fanboys have. But heres a fact. Military embargo...now thats a fact. China buying Su-35s even after a J-20 was inducted, thats a fact and speaks volumes about the short comings Chinese avaition industry is having.
    I'm not going to argue for you or the other. I will state that we have NO facts about crashes in China. Some make it to the media and can not be hidden but it is a matter of POLICY for PLA not to report and hold AUDITS or have TRANSPERANCY same with Pakistan, which is why Chinese/ Pakistan weapons are not criticized and PLA and PA are forced to work with potentially self harming equipment.
    China gets it done, and if its isn't of quality, who is going to complain? Whos going to hear the complaint?
    yep. Thats exactly what PLA fanboys work with? Is this not the same logic? What do PLA fanboys do? Watch out for photos that maybe printed by PLA itself to see what kind of technology China as cooked up rather than having offical publications with transparency? You know whats worse than poor reporting? No reporting!
     
  8. J20!

    J20! Senior Member Senior Member

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    "Two sources close to the military" does not translate to "two airforce officials" mate. That's ambiguous to a point where it carries no water. Plus, J15's a Chinese Navy aircraft, not Airforce.

    Pictures and video of the J15 that had an engine fire were taken and disseminated by Navy Aviation itself Chief. Why would the Navy admit to 2 crashes, disseminate pics of a burning J15 after an emergency landing then censor and hide 2 other crashes?

    The burden of proof lies with the author. Simply shouting: "Chinese censors" doesn't prove jack. Wasn't that your premise back when you claimed a C919 had crashed and the censors where hiding it from the world?
     
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2018
  9. FactsPlease

    FactsPlease Regular Member

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    Can anyone share any information of sortie numbers on various carriers? And got to be credible -- otherwise, this will be just a d**k measuring trolling...
     
  10. J20!

    J20! Senior Member Senior Member

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    The Soviet Navy had a competition between the Su33 and the original Mig29K before selecting the more capable flanker. The Russian Navy only purchased the latest iteration of the Mig29K because the Su33 production line had been closed for years and would require a significant investment to re-open. Same goes for funding upgrades. India had already paid for the upgrades to the Mig29K. They simply piggy backed on the Indian Navy order.

    Even to this day the Mig 29K hasn't "replaced" the Su33 in Russian Naval Aviation, with a majority of the sorties generated by Kuznetsov during its short Syrian outing produced through its much older Su33 airframes not the Mig 29K.

    Vikramaditya has two launch positions with no blast deflectors. The Kuznetsov class has 3. Each launch position on Liaoning has a blast deflector, allowing a follow up aircraft to line up behind the launch position and launch shortly afterwards. Vikramaditya's flight deck crew have to place the second launch aircraft much further away to avoide damage from the launch aircraft's afterburners.

    Basically, Liaoning could launch 6 J15's in the time it took Viky to launch 2, MAYBE 4.

    [​IMG]

    She could launch 2 aircraft from both her port and starboard forward launch positions and recover another through the landing area:

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Both of Viky's launch positions intrude on her landing strip. The inboard lift cant even be used when the starboard launch position is being used.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Its not rocket science gents. Basic layout dictates that the Kuznetsov class, the successor to the Gorshkov class is designed for higher sortie generation.

    Fanboys will just decide that since Viky is Indian, she's superior, but use rational analysis instead of nationalistic nonsense.

    I don't know about "PLA fanboys", but serious Chinese Military watchers base findings on photographic or video evidence. Different batches of J15's produced can be identified by their unique serial numbers. Indian fanboys on this site would have us believe that "secret crashes" have occurred with 0 evidence to back those claims.

    China having a communist government is not evidence mate. Who's being irrational again?
     
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2018
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  11. kamaal

    kamaal Regular Member

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    I think before copying Su-33, PLAN should have politely asked Russia whether these planes work on their own carrier which is roughly of the same size as Liaoning. Russian might have advised properly about the short comings of Su-33 on carrier operations.

    F-18 & Rafale comes in much better weight class for carrier operations, Mig-29K is under powered and doesn't have fire power to stand against F-18 & Rafale. Probably this point forced PLAN to go for more heavy option. But Su-33 on the other hand is very heavy class to operate on such a limited space.

    Looking at the deck space available on Liaoning for SUs, it will be tough for the PLAN pilots to land, just as the Mig-29K pilots find it tough to land on Vikramaditya. But they do it successfully, as they are doing it under the supervision of Russian technicians and Indian experienced pilots. This is one thing PLAN is missing, no carrier experience and no expert to assist.

    I think hiring Russian expert could still help Chinese in making these birds land properly on the deck.

    But still PLAN should be appreciated for this achievement, they have done amazing job in just getting the AC and plane ready in record time.

    Note : It took Indian Navy 5 years to get the carrier battle group ready for operations. This is a statement of Navy official.
     
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  12. sthf

    sthf Senior Member Senior Member

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    Jeejus!!!!

    How the hell is she or anyone else is supposed to come up with evidence when CCP doesn't share any?

    Is it really that difficult to understand?

    Being a good little CCP soldier is one thing but being completely in denial about the absolute lack of information to average Chinese citizen or journalist or heavy handed censorship is asinine.

    Minnie Chan did what anybody else in her position would have, talked to people and wrote about it.

    Here is the direct quote from the deputy head of PLAAF not anonymous sources, no foreign or domestic experts. Keyword being "replace". If you don't understand what a direct quote means google it.

    So either this guy is lying to the international media or he is clueless. Pick your choice.

    Would you like to share the source for J-15 service numbers because I couldn't find one.

    =%%==============%======%

    Now let me address the moron who is too chickenshit to quote me so here I am returning the favour.

    Boo fucking hoo.

    Jets dropping like flies in a tiny brand new fleet. Congratulations, you reduced the crash rate from 3 out of 20 to 3 out of 30 (source????). Only a complete and utter moron can take pride in such extraordinary failures.

    China strong indeed.
     
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  13. SexyChineseLady

    SexyChineseLady Regular Member

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    Sorry Indian dudes, the J-15 has been taking off and landing on the Liaoning for years with no issue. I know you’re disappointed.









    Yes, China WILL have a stealth fighter on its carrier. But not before the J-15D EW and J-15T catapult versions are inducted.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Seriously, you don’t to worry about the J-15. It will be catapulting off a Chinese CATOBAR with a full load within five years. The MiG-29K? It will never see a catapult.
     
  14. Armand2REP

    Armand2REP CHINI EXPERT Veteran Member

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    I doubt the families of the four dead pilots would agree with you.
     
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  15. SexyChineseLady

    SexyChineseLady Regular Member

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    Their families (probably at most two but I’ll humor you) would agree no less than the families of thousands of American naval pilots who lost their lives flying off and landing on carriers. It is a dangerous business.

    None of that will stop the new J-15 variants from flying off the new Chinese carriers coming. They will be joined by the new stealth fighter on the CATOBAR.
     
  16. jat

    jat Regular Member

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    lol. So what should we believe on the condition of PLA? Exactly what blog and sources? oh right. There crap all for transparency because China is ruled by a communist party whos sole purpose is party legitimacy. PLA is not a professional military. They are a private army for the CCP. But that doesn't prove anything I said. But no one rational believes the condition of PLA is as picture perfect as the pictures PLA propaganda brigade issues directly or indirectly. As for the carriers. Yea, Viky is small no where as capable as i could have been for its size expecially interms of use of deck space, ie look at the design difference between Viky and under construction Vikrant. The floating casino OTOH still has huge issues with its airwing. Just because there is an extra short take off runway does not make it super capable. The long runway on both Viky and the casino are nearly same distance. Ontop of this the Falcrum has a shorter takeoff distance and better performance. When the USSR choose between MIG-29K and SU-33 for carrier operations it was largely because the USSR had seriously bad electronics and radars the size of sedans!
    Russia did not just go for Su-33 because of economics but rather also had India make the same choice because the the Su-33 is not ideal for carrier operations given its size with out catapults.
    Write this down: "Flankers are NOT designed for short takeoffs!"
     
  17. rockdog

    rockdog Regular Member

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    I think it's it's illogical. communist lead army crashed Germany in 1945, India in 1962. Even colonial Indian Army crashed Japan in Burma in 1944...
     
  18. J20!

    J20! Senior Member Senior Member

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    Only 1 pilot has lost his life flying a J15. 1 was seriously injured after ejecting. And the other landed his safely on one engine.

    But this wouldn't the first time you've claimed Chinese pilots had died with no evidence.
     
  19. Armand2REP

    Armand2REP CHINI EXPERT Veteran Member

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    Two pilots had already died by 2014...

    The order spoke highly of the squadron in the exploration and development of the J-15 fighter jet. Two test pilots of the squadron sacrificed their lives during the tests.

    http://usa.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2014-08/27/content_18498838.htm

    The other two more recent loses we already know about.
     
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  20. LETHALFORCE

    LETHALFORCE Moderator Moderator

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    If they have to get a whole different plane then there must be a lot more
    Things that will never be put in public,???? And planes are not manufactured
    Overnight so this force projection and blue water aspirations of Chinese
    Navy are a big joke.
     

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