China and India should and will be friends

[kickok1975]

Is this topic realistic? Some people probably don't think so. China supports Indian's deadly enemy Pakistan that makes a lot of Indian angry. The 1962 war's scar is still feeling painful even today. India's closer relationship with US makes China suspect a new geo-political containment is looming. The Dalai Lama with his exiled government is still based in India, from where the Tibetan spiritual leader still post big influence to the most sensitive area of China, which makes Chinese leader nervous all the time. Let alone we have border issues and other problems.

Even with all these, I still think both countries have imperative reasons to see each other as friend and eventually become ally down the road. Here are 3 simple personal analysis to explain.

1. Indian and Chinese culture is not on collision road. On the contrary, we share a lot of common value such as family, integrity, respect and peace from thousands year of civilization. The philosophy of Indian's funding father Mahatma Gandhi is similar to Chinese ancient "Doctrine of mean or inaction". The communism and western influence may have destroied or changed some of it but fundamental culture root still deeply embedded in people. Our people have desire to live peaceful and harmony with each other. More culture exchange in the future will bring us closer.

2. India and China will gain more by working together and lose more by rivary each other. Some people argue China and India both are fast growing developing countries, will only fiercely compete each other in the future. It's true in some degree but not true overall. Both countries economic structures are different. In manufacturing, China is way ahead than India and currently in the process of changing from labor intensive to capital intensive industry. India, on the other hand, badly need more manufacturing job to employ fast growing population. In information industry especially software design, India is leading the way due to generally better English speaking work force and more access to information. Both country need each other. India need strong manufacturing base and good infrastructure to become a true economic power. China has expertise in this area and could help India upgrade infrastructure in a fast and affordable way. As for China, it's opposit, China needs work with India to train more creative engineers, designers to do more innovation job rather than copy and reverse engineering. In sourcing area, both country will find it beneficiary to joint force in bidding resources together rather than outbid each other make seller super rich. China and India are also huge market for each other, the bilateral trade last year already reached 60 billion and there is no sign of slowing.

3. India and China are not enemies. It's still arguable who caused 1962 war but it's hard to imagine same scale of war happen again. There are too much stakes to lose, not mention both countries have nuclear deterrence. The border issues can only be solved by diplomatic negotiations. USA may want India become her ally to contain China but Indian people should have fresh memory how unreliable this superpower was when situation changed. Both countries understand they are not belonging to so called Anglo-Saxon western club so we should never naively expect equally treatment there. For China, she needs focus more on mediating Pak-Indo tension and encourage more cooperation between them rather than keep selling weapons. So both Pakistan and India can waste less money on worthless military rivalry and spend more on economic development. China should also support India's pledge to become a permanent member of UNSC because in the long run India will side more with China for sure as a fellow developing country with common interest.

I have more points but I just want to elaborate these 3 here. In foreseeable future I can see a bumpy road ahead but we will eventually get there.

 

[The Messiah]

Your govt has entirely different view. They would slice India into many parts if they could but cant since they will get tight slap across the face from us.

We are not in usa camp....infact china has more interaction and dealings with usa than India. We have independent foreign policy which isn't dictated by the yanks or anyone for that matter. Get out of pok and stop funding pakistan and moists and you will have peace. Peace only happens when both parties want it but judging by the actions of your govt its clear they have ulterior motives regarding India because they want to be sole power in asia and then in the world and dont want India to rise side by side.

 

[pmaitra]

Your govt has entirely different view. They would slice India into many parts if they could but cant since they will get tight slap across the face from us.

:emot15:

We are not in usa camp....infact china has more interaction and dealings with usa than India. We have independent foreign policy which isn't dictated by the yanks or anyone for that matter. Get out of pok and stop funding pakistan and moists and you will have peace. Peace only happens when both parties want it but judging by the actions of your govt its clear they have ulterior motives regarding India because they want to be sole power in asia and then in the world and dont want India to rise side by side.

The biggest disadvantage as well as advantage is that India is a fence sitter. It had one foot in the US camp, the other one in Russian camp and it's hands are roving from Iran to Malaysia and trying to keep everyone happy. India really needs to set it's priorities right and although getting into some kind of military alliance has never been consistent with Indian ethos, if Chinese threat requires it to be that way, then so be it.

 

[ejazr]

Well if China acknowledges J&K as part of India and stops issuing stapled visas and finalises the boundary. I think we can say that India and China will be firmly on path to friendship.

Until that happens, there will be tension that can cause problems in the near future.

 

[pmaitra]

Well if China acknowledges J&K as part of India and stops issuing stapled visas and finalises the boundary. I think we can say that India and China will be firmly on path to friendship.

Until that happens, there will be tension that can cause problems in the near future.

You are right. Also, I'd like to add, they should return Aksai Chin and Shaksgam Valley to India and get their posteriors out of Gilgit-Baltistan.

 

[kickok1975]

No one can slice India

Your govt has entirely different view. They would slice India into many parts if they could but cant since they will get tight slap across the face from us.

We are not in usa camp....infact china has more interaction and dealings with usa than India. We have independent foreign policy which isn't dictated by the yanks or anyone for that matter. Get out of pok and stop funding pakistan and moists and you will have peace. Peace only happens when both parties want it but judging by the actions of your govt its clear they have ulterior motives regarding India because they want to be sole power in asia and then in the world and dont want India to rise side by side.

I never heard Chinese government want to slice India into pieces, nor did I hear China want to be sole power in Asia. In any country there are always fools who can't see themselves in the mirror but I don't think Chinese government overall not knowing where China stands.
The only force that could deter or destroy India's development is from within, not from outside. No one can break India if Indian people don't want to do it. Same goes to China

 

[kickok1975]

Well if China acknowledges J&K as part of India and stops issuing stapled visas and finalises the boundary. I think we can say that India and China will be firmly on path to friendship.

Until that happens, there will be tension that can cause problems in the near future.

That's what I said bumpy road ahead. But I think we will resolve it peacefully eventually

 

[Virendra]

I never heard Chinese government want to slice India into pieces, nor did I hear China want to be sole power in Asia. In any country there are always fools who can't see themselves in the mirror but I don't think Chinese government overall not knowing where China stands.
The only force that could deter or destroy India's development is from within, not from outside. No one can break India if Indian people don't want to do it. Same goes to China

ahem ... as much as I appreciate the gesture, you made it sound very simple my friend. Given the actions of your government since 62, every piece of it may not be true but Indians think differently and there is absence of mutual trust. Meaning, distrust exists on your side as well. Nobody here should have problems with the rise of China if the CCP and PLA were not to stick their noses into POK, stapled visas for J&K, collaborate with Naxals/Maoists/Seperatists in India. Perhaps your Government is not telling you of its intentions.



Regards,
Virendra

 

[civfanatic]

@kickok1975

Thank you for starting this thread. I have always been an advocate of closer Sino-Indian relations, and I'm glad there are some Chinese netizens with similar views. However, I am also a realist and know that the road ahead will be very bumpy, even if it is heading in the right direction.

You are right. Also, I'd like to add, they should return Aksai Chin and Shaksgam Valley to India and get their posteriors out of Gilgit-Baltistan.

Let's be realistic here. Aksai Chin is a barren, inhospitable wasteland with no value for us, but for China it has considerable strategic value because of the Tibet-Xinjiang Highway that passes through Aksai Chin. This is a vital piece of infrastructure for China's western frontier, and China won't be willing to give it up. As for Shaksgam Valley, it is located deep in POK and does not border any Indian parts of Kashmir iirc, so it would not be wise for us to get back that piece of land either.

On another thread, I posted a list of four criteria that I think should be reached before China and India can be considered "friends". I will repost that list here:

1. Withdrawal of Chinese claims over Arunachal Pradesh, in exchange for withdrawal of Indian claims over Aksai Chin.
2. Acknowldegement of the permanent nature of the Sino-Indian border.
3. Gradual withdrawal of Chinese support for Pakistan. If China still supports Pakistan by 2025 in a way that threatens India, India should look to publicly supporting/arming Japan, Taiwan, and Vietnam on their disputes with China. Tit for tat.
4. Chinese recognition of Kashmir (excluding Chinese-controlled parts) as a dispute between India and Pakistan only, and withdrawal of support to Pakistan on the issue.

Until and unless these four fundamental points are achieved, I am afraid that China poses a threat to the Union of India.

 

[kickok1975]

ahem ... as much as I appreciate the gesture, you made it sound very simple my friend. Given the actions of your government since 62, every piece of it may not be true but Indians think differently and there is absence of mutual trust. Meaning, distrust exists on your side as well. Nobody here should have problems with the rise of China if the CCP and PLA were not to stick their noses into POK, stapled visas for IOK, collaborate with Naxals/Maoists/Seperatists in India. Perhaps your Government is not telling you of its intentions.



Regards,
Virendra

You are right; the lack of trust between each other is probably the major factor driving governments acted like spoiled fighting rooster. But by the end of day when dust settles neither one may find they gained anything

I can't tell government's true intention since I'm not one of them. But my knowledgeable guess is they are adapting a balancing policy toward India rather than hostility. PLA may think otherwise I don't know but they couldn't dictate China's policy.

Chinese government as well as Indian will gradually realize the importance of cooperation between two nations. I expect Premier Wen Jiabao's December visit will further strengthen this trend.

 

[kickok1975]

@kickok1975

Thank you for starting this thread. I have always been an advocate of closer Sino-Indian relations, and I'm glad there are some Chinese netizens with similar views. However, I am also a realist and know that the road ahead will be very bumpy, even if it is heading in the right direction.



Let's be realistic here. Aksai Chin is a barren, inhospitable wasteland with no value for us, but for China it has considerable strategic value because of the Tibet-Xinjiang Highway that passes through Aksai Chin. This is a vital piece of infrastructure for China's western frontier, and China won't be willing to give it up. As for Shaksgam Valley, it is located deep in POK and does not border any Indian parts of Kashmir iirc, so it would not be wise for us to get back that piece of land either.

On another thread, I posted a list of four criteria that I think should be reached before China and India can be considered "friends". I will repost that list here:

1. Withdrawal of Chinese claims over Arunachal Pradesh, in exchange for withdrawal of Indian claims over Aksai Chin.
2. Acknowldegement of the permanent nature of the Sino-Indian border.
3. Gradual withdrawal of Chinese support for Pakistan. If China still supports Pakistan by 2025 in a way that threatens India, India should look to publicly supporting/arming Japan, Taiwan, and Vietnam on their disputes with China. Tit for tat.
4. Chinese recognition of Kashmir (excluding Chinese-controlled parts) as a dispute between India and Pakistan only, and withdrawal of support to Pakistan on the issue.

Until and unless these four fundamental points are achieved, I am afraid that China poses a threat to the Union of India.

Thank you. I hope more people like you with clear mind could bring more positive impact to Indo-Sino relationship.

You are right; our border issue need be resolved, sooner than later. But there are much pride involves and neither country wants to be considered by her citizens as the one who made concessions. So it needs some saving grace skill and requires rounds of negotiation. We just need be patient and watch what's going to happen. China already resolved land border issues with all her neighbors except India. I don't think leaders want to leave it to future generations.

As for China's support to Pakistan, it's really depending on Indo-Pak relationship. There is a theory that if China doesn't support Pakistan, India will easily declare war on her neighbor, overrun helpless Pakistan army and make there another Afghanistan. A terrorist heaven that will threaten China's Xinjiang area. Considering Chinese friendship to Pakistanese, it's a horrible story

 

[The Messiah]

@kickok1975

Thank you for starting this thread. I have always been an advocate of closer Sino-Indian relations, and I'm glad there are some Chinese netizens with similar views. However, I am also a realist and know that the road ahead will be very bumpy, even if it is heading in the right direction.



Let's be realistic here. Aksai Chin is a barren, inhospitable wasteland with no value for us, but for China it has considerable strategic value because of the Tibet-Xinjiang Highway that passes through Aksai Chin. This is a vital piece of infrastructure for China's western frontier, and China won't be willing to give it up. As for Shaksgam Valley, it is located deep in POK and does not border any Indian parts of Kashmir iirc, so it would not be wise for us to get back that piece of land either.

On another thread, I posted a list of four criteria that I think should be reached before China and India can be considered "friends". I will repost that list here:

1. Withdrawal of Chinese claims over Arunachal Pradesh, in exchange for withdrawal of Indian claims over Aksai Chin.
2. Acknowldegement of the permanent nature of the Sino-Indian border.
3. Gradual withdrawal of Chinese support for Pakistan. If China still supports Pakistan by 2025 in a way that threatens India, India should look to publicly supporting/arming Japan, Taiwan, and Vietnam on their disputes with China. Tit for tat.
4. Chinese recognition of Kashmir (excluding Chinese-controlled parts) as a dispute between India and Pakistan only, and withdrawal of support to Pakistan on the issue.

Until and unless these four fundamental points are achieved, I am afraid that China poses a threat to the Union of India.

Never! what is ours is ours....we cannot negotiate it away that too over baseless claims by chinese. If we had occupied chinese territory then i would agree about negotiation but both belong to us and never belonged to china.

how can we give it away ? next they will claiming himachal as lower tibet or assam as greater china...we must not endorse there methods by sitting on negotiating table.

Even if one piece of land is shit i will still love it because it is Indian land.

Example: You have 3 houses and i occupy 1 house of yours and lay claim to another one....would you let me keep house that ive already occupied if i stopped claiming other house ? If yes then im winner and your loser because i got something that never belonged to me.

 

[Virendra]

Never! what is ours is ours....we cannot negotiate it away that too over baseless claims by chinese. If we had occupied chinese territory then i would agree about negotiation but both belong to us and never belonged to china.

how can we give it away ? next they will claiming himachal as lower tibet or assam as greater china...we must not endorse there methods by sitting on negotiating table.

Even if one piece of land is shit i will still love it because it is Indian land.

Example: You have 3 houses and i occupy 1 house of yours and lay claim to another one....would you let me keep house that ive already occupied if i stopped claiming other house ? If yes then im winner and your loser because i got something that never belonged to me.

I agree ..............................

 

[Ray]

Is this topic realistic? Some people probably don't think so. China supports Indian's deadly enemy Pakistan that makes a lot of Indian angry. The 1962 war's scar is still feeling painful even today. India's closer relationship with US makes China suspect a new geo-political containment is looming. The Dalai Lama with his exiled government is still based in India, from where the Tibetan spiritual leader still post big influence to the most sensitive area of China, which makes Chinese leader nervous all the time. Let alone we have border issues and other problems.

Even with all these, I still think both countries have imperative reasons to see each other as friend and eventually become ally down the road. Here is 3 simple personal analysis to explain.

1. Indian and Chinese culture is not on collision road. On the contrary, we share a lot of common value such as family, integrity, respect and peace from thousands year of civilization. The philosophy of Indian's funding father Mahatma Gandhi is similar to Chinese ancient "Doctrine of mean or inaction". The communism and western influence may have destroied or changed some of it but fundamental culture root still deeply embedded in people. Our people have desire to live peaceful and harmony with each other. More culture exchange in the future will bring us closer.

2. India and China will gain more by working together and lose more by rivary each other. Some people argue China and India both are fast growing developing countries, will only fiercely compete each other in the future. It's true in some degree but not true overall. Both countries economic structures are different. In manufacturing, China is way ahead than India and currently in the process of changing from labor intensive to capital intensive industry. India, on the other hand, badly need more manufacturing job to employ fast growing population. In information industry especially software design, India is leading the way due to generally better English speaking work force and more access to information. Both country need each other. India need strong manufacturing base and good infrastructure to become a true economic power. China has expertise in this area and could help India upgrade infrastructure in a fast and affordable way. As for China, it's opposit, China needs work with India to train more creative engineers, designers to do more innovation job rather than copy and reverse engineering. In sourcing area, both country will find it beneficiary to joint force in bidding resources together rather than outbid each other make seller super rich. China and India are also huge market for each other, the bilateral trade last year already reached 60 billion and there is no sign of slowing.

3. India and China are not enemies. It's still arguable who caused 1962 war but it's hard to imagine same scale of war happen again. There are too much stakes to lose, not mention both countries have nuclear deterrence. The border issues can only be solved by diplomatic negotiations. USA may want India become her ally to contain China but Indian people should have fresh memory how unreliable this superpower was when situation changed. Both countries understand they are not belonging to so called Anglo-Saxon western club so we should never naively expect equally treatment there. For China, she needs focus more on mediating Pak-Indo tension and encourage more cooperation between them rather than keep selling weapons. So both Pakistan and India can waste less money on worthless military rivalry and spend more on economic development. China should also support India's pledge to become a permanent member of UNSC because in the long run India will side more with China for sure as a fellow developing country with common interest.

I have more points but I just want to elaborate these 3 here. In foreseeable future I can see a bumpy road ahead but we will eventually get there.

A very well thought out and articulated post.

The reasons why there are mutual misapprehensions between India and China mentioned in the post are true except that though 1962 does rankle, yet with India now quite capable of defending herself than in 1962, the scar, while it still is still not forgotten, yet it does not touch the raw nerve as it used to before.

However, it might be too premature to be able to be comfortable with each other. Observing the issue most dispassionately and in a non partisan manner, one wonders if China can abandon its friendship with Pakistan. China's policy of befriending Pakistan is a geostrategic necessity. It ensures that India is kept on tenterhooks and Pakistan is playing a role, thorough terrorism in Kashmir and Indian hinterland, by keeping the Indian economy and programmes for social justice for the section of population that is underprivileged, weak; as these activities forces India to divert much needed funds to the aspect of security. Given the current realities of geopolitics and geostrategy, this weakening of India assists China. Further, China cannot abandon Pakistan since Pakistan is the womb and top exporter of terrorism in the world and China cannot afford religion inspired terrorism in Xinjing. Therefore, Pakistan plays a major role in ensuring that there is a check on export of fundamentalist terrorist in Xinjiang. That is why Pakistan continues to repeatedly raid the Uighur camps inside Pakistan.

There is no doubt that there should be common grounds and friendship and peace between the two countries. I am sure population on both sides support this idea. I don't think there is any animosity of the peoples against each other.

However, the people do not decide the geopolitics and geostrategy of the world and their Nations. That is the stark reality.

There is no clash of cultures either. In fact, there is immense respect for the Chinese culture and China's achievements in history and even now. China's space advents and the spectacular rise in world sports is well appreciated and even lauded. There is already a large number of Indians who are visiting China for business, as well as tourists. India is already benefiting in the field of business with China, notwithstanding the rivalry, since it is mutually beneficial. It is good that India has not mixed geopolitics with business deals.

A closing of gap in good relations with China is of course feasible. However, looking at it in practical terms, the current environment is still not conducive to encourage the return to the days of Hindi Chini Bhai Bhai!

 

[Kunal Biswas]

As for China's support to Pakistan, it's really depending on Indo-Pak relationship. There is a theory that if China doesn't support Pakistan, India will easily declare war on her neighbor, overrun helpless Pakistan army and make there another Afghanistan. A terrorist heaven threaten China's Xinjiang area.

What are u talking abt?
Pakistan is helpless?

1948 just after the independence, Pakistani backed terrorist attack Kashmir region in thousands, Indian soon secured the occupied zone by tangos, If we want we could overrun ill equipped Pakistani force but we didn't, this Action only shows our scene of responsibility as a greater nation..

1965 Pakistan launch a massive attack in Kashmir plains with Tanks and Aircraft, IA trooper with a squadron of tanks hold their ground, the attack was repulsed..

1971 Pakistan army reputation made Bangladeshis to take a armed struggle throughout the east Pakistani, Taking the past experiences with Pakistan, Indian Gov helped in creation of Bangladesh..

1999 Pakistani Army with terrorist occupy mountain position inside Indian Kashmir, Resulted in Kargil war, 1000plus terrorist died with 550-600 Pakistani troopers..


How come u are saying they are helpless?
Beside US role inside Pakistan is well known..

If we are so Ambitious in occupying our neighbors we would never allowed Bangladesh creation but count it as our own land and Bhutan, Nepal Srilanka would be ours as they were in our map in past..

 

[civfanatic]

Never! what is ours is ours....we cannot negotiate it away that too over baseless claims by chinese. If we had occupied chinese territory then i would agree about negotiation but both belong to us and never belonged to china.

how can we give it away ? next they will claiming himachal as lower tibet or assam as greater china...we must not endorse there methods by sitting on negotiating table.

Even if one piece of land is shit i will still love it because it is Indian land.

Example: You have 3 houses and i occupy 1 house of yours and lay claim to another one....would you let me keep house that ive already occupied if i stopped claiming other house ? If yes then im winner and your loser because i got something that never belonged to me.

Mate, I feel the same way as you, but if we can't have our cake and eat it too. Right now the only way to get back Aksai Chin is to fight an offensive war against China, and then deal with all the political and diplomatic fallout that will result from it. Is that what you want India to do?

In order for Sino-Indian relations to advance there needs to be compromise from both sides, there is no other way.

 

[Ray]

As for China's support to Pakistan, it's really depending on Indo-Pak relationship. There is a theory that if China doesn't support Pakistan, India will easily declare war on her neighbor, overrun helpless Pakistan army and make there another Afghanistan. A terrorist heaven that will threaten China's Xinjiang area. Considering Chinese friendship to Pakistanese, it's a horrible story

Pakistan cannot be overrun. Such theories that one sees on the Net are figments of jingoism.

Realities are different.

Even if for debate's sake, one takes your contention of this 'over running' as correct and feasible, there is no chance of India allowing the so called 'overrunned' area to become a terrorists haven.

India is fed up to its gills with this insane terrorism and will hardly allow anyone to promote it.

One bitten, twice shy; that is how the saying goes!

Therefore, Xinjiang will be safer and not dangerous as you fear!

It is Pakistan which uses terrorism as a 'strategic weapon'.

And that is possibly the Chinese fear of what can happen in case China does not play ball with Pakistan.

 

[Ray]

Mate, I feel the same way as you, but if we can't have our cake and eat it too. Right now the only way to get back Aksai Chin is to fight an offensive war against China, and then deal with all the political and diplomatic fallout that will result from it. Is that what you want India to do?

In order for Sino-Indian relations to advance there needs to be compromise from both sides, there is no other way.

What are your suggestions?

Will China abandon what it has gained?

 

[civfanatic]

As for China's support to Pakistan, it's really depending on Indo-Pak relationship. There is a theory that if China doesn't support Pakistan, India will easily declare war on her neighbor, overrun helpless Pakistan army and make there another Afghanistan. A terrorist heaven that will threaten China's Xinjiang area. Considering Chinese friendship to Pakistanese, it's a horrible story

India cannot destroy Pakistan as a state even if Pakistan didn't have US or Chinese support; Pakistani nuclear weapons prevent that from happening.

Pakistan will collapse by itself soon. The rest of the world recognizes this, which is why Pakistan's "allies" like U.S., Saudi Arabia, etc. are jumping ship by improving relations with India. So far, only China has kept on sailing in Pakistan's ship - only time will tell if CCP recognizes the reality and abandons Pakistan as the rest of the world is doing.

 

[The Messiah]

Mate, I feel the same way as you, but if we can't have a our cake and eat it too. Right now the only way to get back Aksai Chin is to fight an offensive war against China, and then deal with all the political and diplomatic fallout that will result from it. Is that what you want India to do?

We should be prepared to fight for what is ours otherwise we should disband army. We should take back pok...pakistan wouldn't be able to do shit. then warn china about aksai chin and that we will not put up with this nonsense any longer..they will get message when they see us take back pok.

Whole world (except rouge countries) will support us since legally whole of kashmir is Indian territory.

China is like bully in school....when you stand up to bully then he stops bullying you and goes after next weak kid.