Britain may sell its Aircraft Carrier to India

[Yusuf]

the angled deck is a luxury not a necessity for catobar. If required, the present config can be changed without major modification to the carrier in terms of having an angled deck.

 

[icecoolben]

Gosh u are stubborn as i am. Anyway its just an expression of interest on behalf of mod. Hopefully goskov would be the last foreign built carrier in the fleet, or it could be virat. Lets not let our heads roll over this.

 

[Yusuf]

Expression of interest is done for a reason. And that is if its suitable we will buy. Its not done for time pass. It could have come after britain would have showed its inclination to sell that carrier. If their was no requirement for the navy, they would not have sent the EoI. now that they have done, its the duty of all arm chair generals to discuss it . Otherwise we won't have things to discuss on forums.

 

[bengalraider]

as far as CATOBAr or STOBAR is concerned the French are already building the "Porte avions 2" which is basically a QE class in CTOL format. this is being built by thales in collaboration with BAe, and shall use the Dassault rafale as it's airgroup.

The image shows the deck layout of Thales conventional take-off and landing (CTOL) design.

A conventional CTOL variant being studied by BAE in 2001.

 

[icecoolben]

And u told me we can operate mig-35 from this carrier, ha ha.

The ploy could well be to let the russians know that india is not just counting on them and other nations are willing to sell a similar platform and they should show some flexibility. This is a tactical move.
I proposed that v call this british bluff and make a strategic move to re-fit and use hms invincible as a true hedge to goskov, virat1 retirement, and a delay in induction of vikrant class carriers. This is a strategic move.
Our arm chair generals may made the statements. But the think tanks that would have worked behind would have considered its implications both tactical and strategic.

 

[Vladimir79]

indias indecision has no bearing on the price as the Russians inked the price when the decision was firmed up in 2004. So it was the Russian mistake, not indias. Enough said on that already in other thread though.

India's indecision has bearing on the predicament they have gotten themselves into. Refitting the carrier would have been a quarter as expensive if they did it in the late ninties. She was fresh from refit and ready to sell with slight modification. India was the one who let it rust and deteriorate. The original quote price was for a ship that kept the same electronics and marine systems. Now India wants all the latest from Almaz If India didn't want Gorshkov, they had an opportunity to bail when they were misquoted a price. India didn't pay Sevmash for over a year and we are to blame for delays? Our dockyard workers don't work for free. India is directly responsible for their carrier shortage due to delays from indecision on several occasions. Sevmash is guilty of milking it.

 

[icecoolben]

India's indecision has bearing on the predicament they have gotten themselves into. Refitting the carrier would have been a quarter as expensive if they did it in the late ninties. She was fresh from refit and ready to sell with slight modification. India was the one who let it rust and deteriorate. The original quote price was for a ship that kept the same electronics and marine systems. Now India wants all the latest from Almaz If India didn't want Gorshkov, they had an opportunity to bail when they were misquoted a price. India didn't pay Sevmash for over a year and we are to blame for delays? Our dockyard workers don't work for free. India is directly responsible for their carrier shortage due to delays from indecision on several occasions. Sevmash is guilty of milking it.

isn't this an off topic post, i thought u didn't deal with those.
Just because russia offered india needed to buy, had u offered it before v ordered virat at least on a lease, v would have brought them at the end of lease. Provided v didn't build the air defence ship due to the economic turmoil. The onus is solely on russia to have unilaterally increased costs and refer it to the media than keeping it confidential within government circles. Promising it by 2008, atleast by early 2007 they should have conducted a through review of the project. They hot themselves in the foot by objecting to indian presence in tajikistan and arm twisting india providing fodder for western media and lobbyists. Its a crisis of their own making.

 

[Quickgun Murugan]

India's indecision has bearing on the predicament they have gotten themselves into. Refitting the carrier would have been a quarter as expensive if they did it in the late ninties. She was fresh from refit and ready to sell with slight modification. India was the one who let it rust and deteriorate. The original quote price was for a ship that kept the same electronics and marine systems. Now India wants all the latest from Almaz If India didn't want Gorshkov, they had an opportunity to bail when they were misquoted a price. India didn't pay Sevmash for over a year and we are to blame for delays? Our dockyard workers don't work for free. India is directly responsible for their carrier shortage due to delays from indecision on several occasions. Sevmash is guilty of milking it.

So Russia had nothing to do with the bitter experience India is facing with Gorshkov. Is that what you are trying to prove?

India could not bail out from the original deal after being mis-quoted because it had already invested too much time and money on it and had no other option to procure other A/C either. Had Indians had an option of opting for a British or a French used A/C when Gorshkov was mis-quoted, IN would not be in the current quagmire.

 

[sky]

If india can get hold of a queen elizabeth type carrier it will be a real coup for the IN.One thing we must keep in mind is the desire by india to play a bigger role on the world stage.

For the IN that playground is the IOR,please remember the time frame in which these two carriers will enter service and also the substantial increase in budget for the IN.If india can pull this of ,not only will this carrier end up being the IN flagship but will give pakistan and china something to think about as well as raising the image of india abroad.

I can not think of a better ac the IN could go for,and if the armed forces of india go with quality over value in all the services,the future is very bright for india.

 

[icecoolben]

If india can get hold of a queen elizabeth type carrier it will be a real coup for the IN.One thing we must keep in mind is the desire by india to play a bigger role on the world stage.
For the IN that playground is the IOR,please remember the time frame in which these two carriers will enter service and also the substantial increase in budget for the IN.If india can pull this of ,not only will this carrier end up being the IN flagship but will give pakistan and china something to think about as well as raising the image of india abroad.
I can not think of a better ac the IN could go for,and if the armed forces of india go with quality over value in all the services,the future is very bright for india.

but, wouldn't selling the carrier to india reduce significantly uk's strike power and operational readiness.
God britain could be reduced to a sub standard nato ally against france, and germany.

 

[sky]

but, wouldn't selling the carrier to india reduce significantly uk's strike power and operational readiness.
God britain could be reduced to a sub standard nato ally against france, and germany.

Its all about saving money at the moment in all government departments,that includes the mod.The navy also are trying to stop the axe falling on the trident submarine project,which is going to cost more then both queen elizabeth carriers put together.

You have to remember being part of nato mean's we dont need to have a huge capability in our armed forces,the work load is shared between countries.

 

[frankenstein]

there is no way india will be going for this ship.we don't have enough infrastructure to maintain super carrier like HMS Queen Elizabeth

 

[Vladimir79]

So Russia had nothing to do with the bitter experience India is facing with Gorshkov. Is that what you are trying to prove?

No, I am trying to show you India's indecision is what got them into this mess. If they had acted earlier, they could have gotten a much fresher Gorshkov that required less refit, or if they didn't like it, would have had time to pick up the French ex-Foch carrier.

India could not bail out from the original deal after being mis-quoted because it had already invested too much time and money on it and had no other option to procure other A/C either. Had Indians had an option of opting for a British or a French used A/C when Gorshkov was mis-quoted, IN would not be in the current quagmire.

If MoD had quit twiddling their thumbs and made a decision, the ex-Foch could have been an option. But then one has to look at the age of the Foch, laid down in 1955 makes it about as bad as Viraat. Gorshkov is going to be sea-worthy for thirty years. No used carrier is going to give you that kind of guarantee. It would have been ten times cheaper to refit her in the late ninties than to wait until 2007. Anyway, a 45,000 tonne carrier with 30 year servicability for $2 billion is an excellent bargain anyway you cut it. Buying a Queen E. for $6 billion is ludicrous.

 

[bsn4u1985]

No, I am trying to show you India's indecision is what got them into this mess. If they had acted earlier, they could have gotten a much fresher Gorshkov that required less refit, or if they didn't like it, would have had time to pick up the French ex-Foch carrier.



If MoD had quit twiddling their thumbs and made a decision, the ex-Foch could have been an option. But then one has to look at the age of the Foch, laid down in 1955 makes it about as bad as Viraat. Gorshkov is going to be sea-worthy for thirty years. No used carrier is going to give you that kind of guarantee. It would have been ten times cheaper to refit her in the late ninties than to wait until 2007. Anyway, a 45,000 tonne carrier with 30 year servicability for $2 billion is an excellent bargain anyway you cut it. Buying a Queen E. for $6 billion is ludicrous.

but there r so much difference between this 2 AC gorshkov is an old crap...but Queen E. is future generation AC.it has also double capacity in comparision to gorshkov and will be incorporated with sophisticated technology..so this is will be good if it comes to IN.

 

[Vladimir79]

isn't this an off topic post, i thought u didn't deal with those

So the competing sale of foreign carriers doesn't have anything to do with Gorshkov? Get real ---

Just because russia offered india needed to buy, had u offered it before v ordered virat at least on a lease, v would have brought them at the end of lease. Provided v didn't build the air defence ship due to the economic turmoil.

What is the "v?" Too lazy to write "we" and with the "u?" Too lazy to write you? If you can't take the time to write proper sentences, don't write at all. It is clear your language skills are capable.

The onus is solely on russia to have unilaterally increased costs and refer it to the media than keeping it confidential within government circles. Promising it by 2008, atleast by early 2007 they should have conducted a through review of the project. They hot themselves in the foot by objecting to indian presence in tajikistan and arm twisting india providing fodder for western media and lobbyists. Its a crisis of their own making.

The onus is on India for increased costs. The longer you wait the more it costs to repair. They sat on their hands for ten years, then sat on them for over another year deciding whether or not to continue. Inflation, degredation, and higher wages are all penalties of time that increase cost, of which India could have avoided. It is no excuse for the misleading offer from Sevmash, but India waited far too long and should have known if a deal is too good to be true, it always is.

 

[frankenstein]

indian navy might consider HMS Queen Elizabeth (CVF) if it comes with Electromagnetic Aircraft Launch System and Advanced arresting gear

 

[Vladimir79]

but there r so much difference between this 2 AC gorshkov is an old crap...but Queen E. is future generation AC.it has also double capacity in comparision to gorshkov and will be incorporated with sophisticated technology..so this is will be good if it comes to IN.

Gorshkov is being rebuilt and modernised, it won't be old crap when you get it. A carrier wing of 30 aerocraft doubled would be 60. Prince Edward can only hold a max of 50 and won't be in service till around 2020. India can't wait that long and will already have a strong background in domestic carrier aviation construction. Buying it would be like saying India has failed yet again to domestically produce something which happens far too often. It is nearing time India stand on her own two feet in her endeavours.

 

[bsn4u1985]

Gorshkov is being rebuilt and modernised, it won't be old crap when you get it. A carrier wing of 30 aerocraft doubled would be 60. Prince Edward can only hold a max of 50 and won't be in service till around 2020. India can't wait that long and will already have a strong background in domestic carrier aviation construction. Buying it would be like saying India has failed yet again to domestically produce something which happens far too often. It is nearing time India stand on her own two feet in her endeavours.

Gorshkov is not rebuilt it is presently being extensively refitted at Sevmash shipyard in Russia.it is already hit by delay and overcost and giving lots of headache.and in the paper it is saying that it can handle max 30 aircraft but it can handle max 16-20 aircraft according to specialist.u can google it abt it.i am not telling about scrap the IAC programme.in addition to that Queen E. AC will be beneficial for india which has very much capability for future and can also handle AWACs which will multiply Indian navy capability.

 

[sob]

In this discussion all of us are missing some very significant points,

1. The completion dates for Gorshkov and our first Aircraft Carrrier are just probable dates. There is no guarrantee that we shall be getting the two Carriers on the specified dates.

2. Same goes for the 2 more carriers to be built in India. We have seen with other projects deadlines have a different meaning in india.

As regards to the point raised by some people regarding the cost of maintaining carriers and the reason for the French and the British Navy reducing the number of carriers, one must remember that these countries were always under the Umberella of NATO specifically the US. Their threat perceptions are much different from ours. We do not have a third country/allaince to fight our wars. India has to look at the rapid modernisation of the Chinese Navy and also with the vast Exclusive Economic Zone that the Navy has to protect.

Please remember in the World it is only we who have an ocean named after our country and we have to take steps to keep our ocean within our control.

 

[prahladh]

Gorshkov comes with Migs too, all for $2bn. Will QE A/C come with any other goodies or we are about to spend $5bn for A/C alone.