MMRCA 2.0: News & Discussions

WolfPack86

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F-16 never stood a chance to be in IAF fleet. Lockheed Martin messed it up so much
If US President Donald Trump offering to mediate on the Kashmir issue wasn’t enough, he went ahead and exonerated ‘selected’ Prime Minister Imran Khan – implying that under Khan, Pakistani perfidy has stopped. To cap it all, the State Department announced a resumption of military supplies – specifically F-16 spares – to Pakistan. In many ways, the F-16 is a microcosm of India-US ties: oversell, unable to understand the other, stringing your lover along in spite of not understanding what he/she is saying, and a final rejection leading to bitterness.

Let us be clear, however, that the F-16 never stood a chance. Lockheed Martin (LM) screwed up on several issues: its primary weapon the AMRAAM; its sales pitch peddling a point the Indian Air Force (IAF) did not understand; a sales campaign that bordered on outright lies; and finally, Balakot, which proved to be the last nail in the coffin.

Avoiding F-16 in a dogfight
The moment India is offered the same equipment as Pakistan, you pretty much know it’s going to be rejected. Although, India had no hesitation buying the same manufacturer’s C-130 transport aircraft, which Pakistan also operates. However, the IAF, instead of looking at how its aircraft perform in combat situations, seems to be obsessed about fitting them with one particular missile: the European Meteor. The Meteor missile’s long range outclasses the F-16’s primary long-range air-to air weapon, the AMRAAM.

It is in fact a tribute to the F-16’s potency that the IAF wants to avoid engaging it in a dogfight and would prefer to take it out at longer ranges. In effect, it wasn’t the F-16 that irritated the IAF so much as it was the AMRAAM – after all, no matter how advanced an F-16 India was being offered, if the missiles were going to be the same as Pakistan’s (AMRAAM), the electronics differential of the launch platform wasn’t going to be much use to India.

F-16, upgraded to F-21
To counter this perception, LM had a clear case that the F-16 being sold to India (the Block 70 variant, since renamed F-21) was a whole different beast from the Block 50 that Pakistan has. Beyond the superficial exterior resemblance, there’s about 40 per cent difference in terms of equipment; and the electronics derive much from the F-35’s heavily network centric architecture. As such, the F-21s are a generation ahead from anything on Pakistan’s F-16 that could be better in terms of being able to see further, ‘talk to’ other networked assets, and jam enemy frequencies better. So, even if the F-21 and F-16 use the same missile, the F-21 can detect its enemy faster and shoot first and more accurately.

Sadly, given the hodgepodge of equipment the IAF operates, almost none of which talk to each other, the IAF simply doesn’t understand networked warfare, nor does it care. Stuck in the 1980s’ mindset, the IAF still believes in kinetics while the rest of the world has moved towards electronics. The simplest explanation for this is the scene from Indiana Jones and Raiders of the Lost Ark, where an Arab swordsman comes around flaunting his sword skills and Indy simply shoots him with a revolver. Here, the IAF is the Arab swordsman, who thinks a better sword could have won him the battle, instead of transitioning to a revolver; Lockheed Martin is the revolver salesman, who futilely tries arguing with the swordsman to give up his sword for the revolver.

US firm’s disinformation campaign
If LM’s sales pitch left the IAF confused, then LM’s disinformation left the IAF entirely not-amused. This disinformation campaign started off with the promise of F-16 production being shifted to India. This developed into a set of transparent lies that F-16 production would involve deep technology transfer and make India independent. Obviously, it didn’t take long for the lies to get called out, which was followed by a public retraction from Lockheed. The amount of damage this did to LM’s campaign is almost incalculable.

But Balakot was the last straw. The IAF is convinced that it shot down an F-16 using an obsolete MiG-21. The severe factual inaccuracies of the “IAF didn’t shoot an F-16” lobby, combined with an embarrassing set of tweets by the Pakistani DG-ISPR unable to explain two missing pilots, means the IAF is now convinced that its reliance on dogfights is valid (that is, the Arab swordsman can still win against Indian Jones’ revolver) and that the F-16 is a flawed product.

In the end, the overall problems of the India-US relationship explained earlier are distilled into India’s F-16 saga: India’s understanding of war and technology being different to the US, both talking a different language; disinformation from the US’ side; India giving false hope where there was none to begin with. In such circumstances, the resumption of military sales to Pakistan was a foregone conclusion, and would have happened regardless of whether there was a Donald Trump involved without anyone getting surprised.

The author is a senior fellow at the Institute of Peace and Conflict Studies. He tweets @iyervval. Views are personal.
https://theprint.in/opinion/f-16-ne...-lockheed-martin-messed-it-up-so-much/269699/


 

WolfPack86

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Coming to India's Aircraft Carriers: America's F/A-18 Super Hornet?

Dan Gillian, Boeing’s program manager for the F/A-18 and EA-18G, told Economic Times that his company had done simulations of the Super Hornet taking off from a ski jump and the aircraft can be launched with a ‘significant’ payload without any modifications.

He added that the F/A-18 will be tested from a U.S. Navy ski jump as well.

“We have answered queries from the Indian Navy and the simulation analysis is done. At some point, we will also take off from a US Navy ski jump. We feel very comfortable that we will pass the requirements with a meaningful and significant payload,” Gillian said.

Boeing is vying for an Indian Navy contract for 57 new fighter jets to operate from its next aircraft carrier INS Vikrant. The Super Hornets would replace the service MiG-29Ks that are facing problems with engines and electronic control systems. These issues resulted in serviceability of the airplanes varying between 16 percent and 39 percent meaning that out of fleet 10 fighters only 3 were normally available for operations at a given time.


Boeing offered to set up an F/A-18 Super Hornet production facility in India. “We are talking about creating a next-generation facility in India. We think the Super Hornet is the most advanced airplane that India could manufacture,” Gillian explained.

Gillian added that talks are on with both the Indian Navy and the Indian Air Force (that has a requirement for 116 new fighter jets). Boeing in fact is looking for a partnership with Indian manufacturers Mahindra and Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) to present a proposal under the Make in India initiative. “HAL has built airplanes for years and Mahindra too has manufacturing knowhow. A public-private partnership will bring it together and we will build a brand new first class facility in India. It will help India build its next plan for the advanced multirole combat aircraft as well,” Gillian concluded.
https://nationalinterest.org/blog/b...ft-carriers-americas-fa-18-super-hornet-73641
 

angeldude13

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Taiwan Announces It's Getting New Block 70 F-16s As U.S. Government Advances Deal


https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zo...lock-70-f-16s-as-u-s-government-advances-deal

The F-16 is not yet dead and India would get a windfall both in revenues and experience in assembling high tech Western fighter if it has F-16s factory.
We will not buy a 4th gen jet that comes with a lot of strings attached. We pretty much have an independent foreign policy and we don’t want to be someone’s lacky.
So stop pushing your suckage on us.
 

WolfPack86

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The Indian delegation were shown MiG-35 & Su-57 aircraft. Indian Air Force test pilots G/C BS Reddy and W/C FL Roy got an opportunity to fly two sorties on MiG-35 aircraft during the visit of #MAKS2019
 

WolfPack86

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#Saab to hold meetings with Indian firms for making Gripen E aircraft

.

Saab is in the fray for a contract to supply around 110 fighter planes to India under the Multi Role Fighter Aircraft (MRFA) programme.

Swedish defence major Saab is planning to hold meetings with Indian companies in October to develop ecosystem in the country for manufacturing multi-role fighter aircraft, a top official of the company said here.

Saab is in the fray for a contract to supply around 110 fighter planes to India under the Multi Role Fighter Aircraft (MRFA) programme. The Indian Air Force in April 2018 issued an initial tender or Request for Information (RFI) for the billion dollar procurement deal.

Saab responded to the initial tender in July 2018 with its Gripen E MRFA.

Mats Palmberg, VP Industrial Partnerships and Head of Gripen India Campaign told PTI here that the company has undertaken surveys for aerostructures parts, such as sub-assemblies, machined parts and sheet metal parts.

"The industry evaluation tour will take place for 10 days in mid-October. A dozen Indian SMEs suitable for systems manufacturing will be met...by a team consisting of different Saab companies, international system suppliers headed by members of the Gripen for India team, " Palmberg said on sideline of India Sweden Innovation Day.

The upcoming meetings with Indian firms will be a follow-up of the B2B (Business to Business) event Saab held in Delhi a couple of years ago.

Palmberg said Saab has been holding continuous discussions with the company's international partners and suppliers and with the Indian companies.
"Some discussions have resulted in MoUs with a mutual intention to work together on a broader basis in defence and also in the execution phase of the Gripen E program in India," he said.

The company has Saab India Tech Centre (SITC) in Hyderabad, which together with Tech Mahindra is undertaking Gripen development work.

Saab also has a joint company with Aequs in Belgaum for subassemblies.

"We also have contracts with suppliers for machine and sheet metal parts. All these products are exported out of India for our commercial programs with Airbus and Boeing. We are actively working to increase and broaden sourcing from India to increase levels of volume as well as complexity," Palmberg said.

Saab claims Gripen E to be the most modern fighter.

"The offer of Gripen E also consists of the most comprehensive transfer of capability packages focused on building indigenous capabilities to design, develop, produce and maintain a modern state of the art fighter system platform.

"The build-up of those capabilities will require substantial investments from the Indian as well as from international partners. Investments will need to be made in facilities, training, machinery etc," Palmberg said.
.https://www.facebook.com/pg/TeamAMCA/photos/?ref=page_internal
 

IndianHawk

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#Saab to hold meetings with Indian firms for making Gripen E aircraft

.

Saab is in the fray for a contract to supply around 110 fighter planes to India under the Multi Role Fighter Aircraft (MRFA) programme.

Swedish defence major Saab is planning to hold meetings with Indian companies in October to develop ecosystem in the country for manufacturing multi-role fighter aircraft, a top official of the company said here.

Saab is in the fray for a contract to supply around 110 fighter planes to India under the Multi Role Fighter Aircraft (MRFA) programme. The Indian Air Force in April 2018 issued an initial tender or Request for Information (RFI) for the billion dollar procurement deal.

Saab responded to the initial tender in July 2018 with its Gripen E MRFA.

Mats Palmberg, VP Industrial Partnerships and Head of Gripen India Campaign told PTI here that the company has undertaken surveys for aerostructures parts, such as sub-assemblies, machined parts and sheet metal parts.

"The industry evaluation tour will take place for 10 days in mid-October. A dozen Indian SMEs suitable for systems manufacturing will be met...by a team consisting of different Saab companies, international system suppliers headed by members of the Gripen for India team, " Palmberg said on sideline of India Sweden Innovation Day.

The upcoming meetings with Indian firms will be a follow-up of the B2B (Business to Business) event Saab held in Delhi a couple of years ago.

Palmberg said Saab has been holding continuous discussions with the company's international partners and suppliers and with the Indian companies.
"Some discussions have resulted in MoUs with a mutual intention to work together on a broader basis in defence and also in the execution phase of the Gripen E program in India," he said.

The company has Saab India Tech Centre (SITC) in Hyderabad, which together with Tech Mahindra is undertaking Gripen development work.

Saab also has a joint company with Aequs in Belgaum for subassemblies.

"We also have contracts with suppliers for machine and sheet metal parts. All these products are exported out of India for our commercial programs with Airbus and Boeing. We are actively working to increase and broaden sourcing from India to increase levels of volume as well as complexity," Palmberg said.

Saab claims Gripen E to be the most modern fighter.

"The offer of Gripen E also consists of the most comprehensive transfer of capability packages focused on building indigenous capabilities to design, develop, produce and maintain a modern state of the art fighter system platform.

"The build-up of those capabilities will require substantial investments from the Indian as well as from international partners. Investments will need to be made in facilities, training, machinery etc," Palmberg said.
.https://www.facebook.com/pg/TeamAMCA/photos/?ref=page_internal
Their marketing is robust even if product isn't.
HAL must learn from Saab how to do PR and be proactive for exports even when you have nil chances.
 

WolfPack86

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Lockheed to begin supplying F-16 wings from Indian plant in 2020

NEW DELHI: Lockheed Martin will begin supplying wings for its F-16 combat jets from a facility in southern India from next year, a senior executive said on Thursday.

Lockheed is bidding for a contract, estimated at more than $15 billion, to supply the Indian Air Force with 114 combat planes and has offered to shift its F-16 production line from the United States to India. It plans to build an upgraded version of the aircraft which it calls F-21.

Prime Minister Narendra Modi's government is pushing a Make-in-India programme under which it wants global firms, including in the defence sector, to set up manufacturing centres in India to build a domestic ..industrial base and create jobs.

Vivek Lall, vice president of Strategy and Business Development for Lockheed Martin Aeronautics, said the wings of all future F-16s that the company will sell worldwide will be produced in a joint venture with India's Tata Advanced Systems in the southern city of Hyderabad.

"The first wing prototype is being built now. The expectation is we will begin supplying by next year sometime, this will be the sole facility for future F-16 wing production," Lall told Reuters.

Lockheed is ..competing for the Indian air force contract with Boeing, which has pitched its F/A-18 Super Hornet, as well as Sweden's Saab with its Gripen fighter. France's Dassault Systemes SE's Rafale, the Eurofighter Typhoon and Russian aircraft are also in the fray.

The air force needs new fighter jets to replace its ageing fleet of Russian MiG planes. But Indian defence procurement is a lengthy process.

The government's insistence on local manufacture and reduced reliance on expensive imports has delayed decision-making further as foreign firms search for local partners and suppliers.

Lall said Lockheed was already producing the empennage of its C-130J transport aircraft from the Hyderabad facility and also cabins for its Sikorsky helicopter. There were 500 people each involved in two joint ventures set up for the production of the empennage and the cabin.

We have been doing make-in-India for years now," he said. The company has said if it sets up a local production base for the F-16 it will also provide maintenance, repair and spares for the combat jet flying with air forces around the world.

Lall said that with 3,000 F-16s flying around the world and more orders being negotiated with countries such as Bahrain, Lockheed estimated there was a market worth $165 billion for after-sales support.

"It is a huge potential business, India will be plugging into the world's largest fighter jet ecosystem."
https://economictimes.indiatimes.co...indian-plant-in-2020/articleshow/71323403.cms
 

WolfPack86

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The 7 bids in for India’s 114 multirole fighter contest. Acceptance of necessity paperwork to begin soon, says IAF chief Bhadauria. We’ll have a detailed piece up soon.
 

WolfPack86

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Process for ‘acceptance of necessity (AoN)’ for the 114 multirole combat aircraft program to be initiated soon, says IAF chief Bhadauria. The following have responded to the RFI, but there’s a near-zero chance it will be a 7-horse race. Or a race at all. Post coming up.
 

ashdoc

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The 7 bids in for India’s 114 multirole fighter contest. Acceptance of necessity paperwork to begin soon, says IAF chief Bhadauria. We’ll have a detailed piece up soon.
Haven't we gone through all this before?

We should go for the affordable f 18 block 3 in this economic crisis situation.
 
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Knowitall

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We should go for the affordable f 18 block 3 in this economic crisis situation.
First there is no "crisis" read the posts of haldiram in the indian economy page and you will get an idea of whats going on. We are still in a good condition.

Second under no condtion are we going to buy a jet which will threaten both tejas and our forign policy for years to come.
 

IndianHawk

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Haven't we gone through all this before?

We should go for the affordable f 18 block 3 in this economic crisis situation.
There is nothing affordable about f18 block 3. It will cost almost as much as rafale. Whatever we will save on upfront cost we will pay for extra infrastructure ( for rafale 72 jets worth infra is already built).
 

IndianHawk

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The 7 bids in for India’s 114 multirole fighter contest. Acceptance of necessity paperwork to begin soon, says IAF chief Bhadauria. We’ll have a detailed piece up soon.
Again same drama. F21 , f18 are American and come with strings attached .( No nuke role , end use monitoring ) so game over for them.

Mig35 never had a chance . Su35 will come in form of su30mki upgrade which will make them equivalent to su35 with sensor fusion irbis or aesa. That will also placate Russia.

Gripen E is our own mwf capabilities. Lca mk1a itself delivers 80% of gripen performance. With elta aesa and Astra bvr.

Eurofighter is costlier than rafale.

So back to rafale it is.
 

IndianHawk

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Now I am making a bold guess.

This time mmrca is a ruse to allow french to offer a much more affordable package for rafale.

When original mmrca started we missed the offer on closing mirage line and rafale was new prime tech for french and hence rafale was very costly .
And then inflation due to delay made it more costly.

But now in 2020s the situation is changed. French are putting resources to next gen fighter and rafale line is slowing down to gratual halt over next decade.

By the time mmrca 2020 will be decided. Rafale tech will be like mirage in 2004 for France.

So whole line could be shifted to India in 2025 at discounted prices just as was proposed for mirage line.

Whatever more orders for rafale come from outside french can supply them from Indian line. ( Given the record and price export other than india will be minimal.).

Because without more export orders french rafale line will have to closed soon anyway.

India could build 114 rafale from 2025-2032. By the time AMCA reaches foc. And French can move on to 6th gen proposed fighter which has to fly before 2040.

With whole line move to India and rafale no longer the prime tech of France it's price can be discounted heavily to complete 114 rafale within 25 billion USD.

Rafale manufacturing tech will augment mwf and amca manufacturing . And common weaponry can be distributed across three platform ensuring future combat effectiveness.

That's just a guess but honestly i can't see any other reason to go for mmrca again . What's the point.
 

Filtercoffee

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Now I am making a bold guess.

This time mmrca is a ruse to allow french to offer a much more affordable package for rafale.

When original mmrca started we missed the offer on closing mirage line and rafale was new prime tech for french and hence rafale was very costly .
And then inflation due to delay made it more costly.

But now in 2020s the situation is changed. French are putting resources to next gen fighter and rafale line is slowing down to gratual halt over next decade.

By the time mmrca 2020 will be decided. Rafale tech will be like mirage in 2004 for France.

So whole line could be shifted to India in 2025 at discounted prices just as was proposed for mirage line.

Whatever more orders for rafale come from outside french can supply them from Indian line. ( Given the record and price export other than india will be minimal.).

Because without more export orders french rafale line will have to closed soon anyway.

India could build 114 rafale from 2025-2032. By the time AMCA reaches foc. And French can move on to 6th gen proposed fighter which has to fly before 2040.

With whole line move to India and rafale no longer the prime tech of France it's price can be discounted heavily to complete 114 rafale within 25 billion USD.

Rafale manufacturing tech will augment mwf and amca manufacturing . And common weaponry can be distributed across three platform ensuring future combat effectiveness.

That's just a guess but honestly i can't see any other reason to go for mmrca again . What's the point.
If I may, Japan is about to sell 105 F- 15Js and Djs for the F-35. No need to waste excess when such a package is available. All the mentioned aircraft for MMRCA are brand new manufacturing will take a while to be produced. Atleast 6 years to complete. New aircraft will be a great choice, but HAL projects will take such a back burner that all of the hopefuls will start getting suicidal online. In their posts. Do you think it will be even more expensive to operate F-15s compared to the brand new aircraft and this is excluding the price to manufacture, opperate and maintain the new aircraft compared to an already made aircraft, with weapons very easily obtained and the manufacturer, Boeing easily maintaing them?
 
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IndianHawk

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If I may, Japan is about to sell 105 F- 15Js and Djs for the F-35. No need to waste excess when such a package is available. All the mentioned aircraft for MMRCA are brand new manufacturing will take a while to be produced. Atleast 6 years to complete. New aircraft will be a great choice, but HAL projects will take such a back burner that all of the hopefuls will start getting suicidal online. In their posts. Do you think it will be even more expensive to operate F-15s compared to the brand new aircraft and this is excluding the price to manufacture, opperate and maintain the new aircraft compared to an already made aircraft, with weapons very easily obtained and the manufacturer, Boeing easily maintaing them?
You have repeated this nonsense before and many people here have debunked it.

Older jets are harder to maintain. IAF have enough heavy fighters already.

F15 won't come nobody is even considering them. Give it up pal.
 

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