America and its response to genocides

Damian

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This is going into semantics, definitions of a nation state etc are beyond this thread. For all intents and purposes as indicated by the thread starter, we're treating a nation by the actions of it's leaders/government
Ah, but this is a very simple way for spreading hatred to other nations, look at this in such way. Some young person will read this thread, and he will see such statements from his countrymen "US is ze evil, because they supported ze evil Pakistan, so US nation is also ze evil, so we need to hate them", some persons will be wise and ingnore, some will not and they will catch the byte.

Think about this.
 

nrj

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No, we are deciding what stand and what opinions we will choose to praise, we can be wise in our lifes and be carefull with our statements (this not allways is succesfull due to many factors but still) or we can just take the easy way of angry and stupid mob that will see everywhere enemys and will insult anyone who is not in this angry mob.

This is the difference. Life is illusion, and we can go through this illusion and be wise, or sit in this illusion and take as a truth anything other will tell us, but this is philosophy.

This is going into semantics, definitions of a nation state etc are beyond this thread. For all intents and purposes as indicated by the thread starter, we're treating a nation by the actions of it's leaders/government



#120 by Lurkerbaba


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Damian

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By the way, if a thread starter made such statement, then he made mistake, hopefully he is aware of this mistake.
 

K Factor

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Lets start from the basics.

What constitutes a genocide?
THE CRIME OF GENOCIDE

On December 9, 1948, in the shadow of the Holocaust and in no small part due to the tireless efforts of Lemkin himself, the United Nations approved the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide. This convention establishes "genocide" as an international crime, which signatory nations "undertake to prevent and punish." It defines genocide as:

[G]enocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:
(a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.
So the first post of the thread - which should form the basis of an intelligent discussion is flawed.
Biggest proponents for Muslim genocides are Chinese ... Chinese being the worst of it. Look at their support, and I'm not speaking in spirit, but rather monetary support of Sudan. Here is Syria where Muslims are being killed in ways where people there and its neighbors are calling it a " a massacre, slaughter etc" .
Higher than mountains deeper than seas-- but when it comes to genocidal maniacs, no Muslims are to be free!
Chinese want to get rid of Uighur separatists, not Muslims. It is a coincidence that these rebels are Muslims. Make no mistake - if it was a Chinese Buddhist or whatever group, they would still face the same situation.
In Syria, the people being targeted are political protestors, some of them armed guerrillas who are hiding within civilians.
How does these 2 scenarios qualify as a genocide?
Get your facts straight - the entire premise of this thread is flawed.

and thats what you call genocide supporting, that's how you qualify it ( sent ships but did not do jack with it). in that case India is one, they pushed for no action on Libya, Lord knows thats what they want in syria too, It continues and did so in the past by helping Tamil genocide in sri lanka...

there you go , my examples trumps yours..
Sorry to say that your knowledge of history is not worth spending time, but I will still try.
Read this entire page and its linked documents and you will get a hint.
The Tilt: The U.S. and the South Asian Crisis of 1971

And in the same time he made Chile one of the best prospering countries in South America... besides who cares about socialists, they killed more humans than Pinochet was ever capabale. Lenin, Stalin, Beria, Castro, Che Guevara, Pol Pot, Kim Jong Ill, Hitler, Mao Tse Tung etc. etc. etc. These guys are way above any level of killing made by Pinochet or even medieval or ancient kings, emperors etc. Think about that. ;)
They were dictators, tyrants - they were responsible for mass murders - not for genocides. Targeted killing of political opponents does not classify as "genocide".

JAy ATL knows that Rwanda was a stain on the US not because it PROMPTED IT! Did India by not interfering on Sudan " PROMOTE" it? Maybe you forget the premise of the claim " US Promotes genocide"

Pssst- there was a genocide of tamils to the south of india by a piss poor country who had no militray power to take on India. Tell us why india PROMPTED genocide of a people that had a closer bloodline to itself ( citizenry) than Rwanda had to americans?
You twisted Daredevils words, he said US ignored it - not promote it.
On the Tamil issue, I would suggest you do some deeper research and not just rely on news media.

AND BTW I refuse to debate with people anymore who are stupid enough, military strategy defunct to think a freaking carrier with 40 aircrafts = military plan to invade and or nuke India. You should get off defense board if you are that naïve when it comes to the simple tactical knowledge / matter as this.
Do you know that the US military planned to respond by any means necessary (and that includes nukes) in response to sinking of a carrier, even with conventional methods?
Secondly, the carrier wasn't there to invade, it was to dissuade India. And to militarily intervene, one CVBG is enough. If required, you had Diego Garcia with loaded B-52 bombers.

Agreed. But Govt & its appointed individuals represent the nation as whole. There is no denying fact about the picture that Govt paints for its nation or its citizens.
This does not make the nation as a whole responsible for his deeds. Saddam Hussein (Ba'ath Party) was first elected democratically. So was Hitler.
Doesn't make the general populace responsible and accountable for their actions. They were his actions, not Iraq's.
Though the people in question may have had their supporters, let us not confuse individuals with national identities.

US promoted genocide. Any attempt to lecturing the world on genocide by US means fuckall.
Dumb. By your logic, entire Germany and germans should never speak out against or help in preventing genocide.

The U.S. themselves are the greatest perpetrators of genocide in the past two hundred years. There really should be a separate thread on that; I think I'll start one when I get the time.
Whenever I think of US war, 1st thing that comes to my mind is Vietnam war. 1 Million died with biggest ever bombarding/Genocide. US is biggest threat for this world (after Islamic extremist) :mad2:
More bombs were dropped on Vietnam than by all sides in WWII. It was the most devastated country in modern military history.
WMD - yes. No concern for civilian casualties - Yes. Genocide - No.

OP started the thread " America and its response to genocides " But he forgot that US is one of the biggest supporter of Genocide.
Thread title is hilarious.
May be he is more American than Indo-American ?
Troll post. No value added to the thread or discussion or even humor anyone.
 

mayfair

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I believe JayATL started this thread with the belief that this would turn into a eulogy for the American stand on democracy, human rights etc round the world. Once called out on it, the bloke acting like a petulant three year old, throws his toys out of the pram and high tails outta here.

Do we know of one nation state which does exactly this, only at the national level? No prizes for guessing, it is Pakistan. It was ironic to say the least to see JayATL equating those who differ with his warped world view with the Pakis.
 

A chauhan

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Well !! we can consider those acts as the acts of US leaders alone if there were major protests or rallies by US people against such acts of govt. or leaders showing that the govt. is not acting on behalf of US peoples, but in absence of such protests or rallies we have to consider those as sovereign acts of US.
 

civfanatic

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Of course You have some proof for that? Oh wait wait wait, no, You will not accuse individuals responsible for orders or actions, no, You will show us a hate show for the whole country and nation, what will be next? A rascism towards white people? :)
The United States as a nation was built on genocide. Try to understand that basic fact first.

Apparently calling a spade a spade and mentioning obvious historical facts is considered "racism against white people" now...


Hypocrites are everywhere it seems.
Tell me about it.
 

hit&run

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There are some tough question America has to answer if not America then American posters who may found easy acceptability at Pakistani forums where they have many Pakistani loopholes handy to make them quite or at international affair forums where cunning Americans propagandist bully around teaching others American rationalities; but not here at DFI. Their is no high morale leverage an American would have when preaching us about democracy and fighting for the rights of weak. India its self is 1/7 of humanity and Indian fight for the rights of humanity just does not start after 1947 but way before when we started our freedom fight against white supremacist vampires of United Kingdom.
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I know many American would find it hard to see Indians talking negative about USA but India is not China or Pakistan who bluffs around saying their enemy is America but are scared to death from them and are compromised comprehensively by many ways. We have no fight or traction with USA and their is no possibility that their would be any in near future. But for sake of good/fair academic discussion Americans have to improve their digestion.
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India has spent many decades literally in isolation but haven't let others to challenge our sovereignty and self respect. USA and its stooges support or no support to our J&K cause doesn't approve a thing how we see its resolution with bilateral dealing with Pakistan. If it wasn't of coward Pakistanis who from the very first day of their inception surrendered themselves to hyper powers; the peace could have prevailed by now.
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USA pissed of Indira Gandhi and then we detonated first nuclear explosions. This one example may not be of any tactical or strategic significance for super nuclear powers but its shows Indian psyche which we have kept so for as it is.
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Phenom

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Of course, because nation did not support this, if someone in US supported this, then they were politicians or they just did not take any actions, so they were not supporting this, neither they were against it.

It is all, You want to simply blame whole nations for some people actions, not the individuals, I hope You will be happy when someone will accuse Your nation because of actions of some individual in Your country goverment.
By using the same logic, would you say that Nazi Germany was also blameless, afterall only its leaders are responsible for its action. Also why do Poles blame the Russians for the failure of Warsaw uprising instead of blaming just Stalin?
 

amitkriit

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USA financed and supported terror in Punjab and North East states of India. USA's stand on Kashmir cannot be said to be aligned with Indian stand. India must fall for the carrots being thrown to lure us into their fold, they will use us and and when we become a hindrance, they will do to us what they did to their trusted ally Pakistan and to the Mujahedin in Afghanistan. That's why it is important for us to normalize our relation with our neighbors, particularly China.
 

nitesh

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Mujahiddin are not the same as taliban.
That is getting in to semantics mate, Mujahiddin were to fought the soviets, the evolved in to taliban by ISI, when US turned it's back other way.. More or less same
 

K Factor

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That is getting in to semantics mate, Mujahiddin were to fought the soviets, the evolved in to taliban by ISI, when US turned it's back other way.. More or less same
Disagree buddy. Mujaheddin was a loose term for anyone fighting for the freedom of Afghanistan from Russian rule. America supported it.
Taliban and their ideology came into effect in 1994 - much later than the Soviet withdrawal from Afghanistan, and it was then nurtured by Pakistan.

Lastly, this thread is about genocide, not terrorism or Islamic extremism.
 

nitesh

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Disagree buddy. Mujaheddin was a loose term for anyone fighting for the freedom of Afghanistan from Russian rule. America supported it.
Taliban and their ideology came into effect in 1994 - much later than the Soviet withdrawal from Afghanistan, and it was then nurtured by Pakistan.

Lastly, this thread is about genocide, not terrorism or Islamic extremism.
Sorry, I guess I was not clear, when I posted the original message, the point I was trying to convey was US did supported terrorism, which in turn goes towards genocide, you can name the monster by different names. But that does not changes the basic instincts of what it stands for. Soviet withdrawal started in 1987 went on till 1988. They installed a puppet government in Afghanistan, US stopped popping up the fighters, pakis took our the mettle completely, created an alliance called Taliban, and US turned it's back conveniently. The government was supported by Soviets, once SU disintegrated, Russia was not able to supply arms to the government, the government finally fell in 1994. Since then we have seen the trail of destruction. All the US munnas legitimized the taliban. If it is not supporting genocide, then I wonder what will be.
 

K Factor

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nitesh

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Nitesh - what I am not getting is the use of the term genocide. Terrorism is not genocide.
Check the definition of Genocide.
http://defenceforumindia.com/intern...-america-response-genocides-7.html#post326403
Kommunist, I am sure you are aware of the trail of destruction these mofos have left over this region, do you really believe that these mofos are not same as the ones operating in Kashmir? They killed the Kashmiri pundits, they are killing shias, ahmedis are butchered. What else you need? All the time they had tactit understanding of US that they will be confined in the region, OBL changed all this.
 

K Factor

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Kommunist, I am sure you are aware of the trail of destruction these mofos have left over this region, do you really believe that these mofos are not same as the ones operating in Kashmir? They killed the Kashmiri pundits, they are killing shias, ahmedis are butchered. What else you need? All the time they had tactit understanding of US that they will be confined in the region, OBL changed all this.
What happened to Kashmiri Pundits would classify as genocide, but again, blaming that on the US is like blaming it on Russia, whose invasion of Afghanistan started this whole chain of events.
 

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