Airbus MRTT aircraft purchase put on hold

[sgarg]

.

I think @sgrg even don't Know what the actual problem and how much we can afford from other countries, He just want to put his views favor some Russian Piece of Junk, and thinks those IAF officials were fools who selected this,

Just read the Below Article, Is sure you won't

The Beta Coefficient: Aerial-refueling aircraft in the Indian context: a capability review

You allude that earlier iaf officers were fools who bought Il78? Why did they mount Israeli AWACS on il76 and not airbus 330 earlier? What changed now? I want to know.

 

[sgarg]

Who is vivek ahuja by the way? Does he represent iaf in any way? It is just an opinion.

 

[sgarg]

While it makes sense for AWACS to be mounted on a-330 due to higher flight time, situation is not same for refueler.

 

[brational]

IL 76 is a generation old platform, one should not claim that what was suitable during 70s and 80s will remain suitable through 2020s and 30s. We had no other option in the past than Russian heavy lifters but now we have C-17, C-130 and so on. I'm not a defense expert but I know that requirements change with time. The fact is TAT of western machines are far more efficient than the Russians for whatever reasons. IAF needs the best machine against the money spent.

 

[pmaitra]

Who is vivek ahuja by the way? Does he represent iaf in any way? It is just an opinion.

I think I read in another thread that he tried to sell his software to ADA, but ADA was not interested because they has far superior software that they have built in house.

 

[sgarg]

IL 76 is a generation old platform, one should not claim that what was suitable during 70s and 80s will remain suitable through 2020s and 30s. We had no other option in the past than Russian heavy lifters but now we have C-17, C-130 and so on. I'm not a defense expert but I know that requirements change with time. The fact is TAT of western machines are far more efficient than the Russians for whatever reasons. IAF needs the best machine against the money spent.

Why? Did you stop eating the same food your father was eating. What do you mean by "generation old"? The new version of IL-76 with new engines is being bought by RuAF. This version has higher payload and range.
What will IAF do with existing IL-76 and IL-78? Throw them away because they bought C-17! Doubt it. IL-76 were bought in 80s (not IL-78 which were bought when BJP was in power). IL-76 can easily last over 40 years. You will see IL-76 in IAF for another decade at least. IL-78 will be seen for three decades more.

C-17 has NOT replaced IL-76. IL-76 continues to be used daily for supply to forward areas.

 

[pmaitra]

Why? Did you stop eating the same food your father was eating. What do you mean by "generation old"? The new version of IL-76 with new engines is being bought by RuAF. This version has higher payload and range.
What will IAF do with existing IL-76 and IL-78? Throw them away because they bought C-17! Doubt it. IL-76 were bought in 80s (not IL-78 which were bought when BJP was in power). IL-76 can easily last over 40 years. You will see IL-76 in IAF for another decade at least. IL-78 will be seen for three decades more.

C-17 has NOT replaced IL-76. IL-76 continues to be used daily for supply to forward areas.

I don't think that is the correct analogy.

We have actually made subtle changes in what our parents ate and what we eat. The difference is subtle, but if we compare ourselves with our great grand parents, then the differences will be more.

Ilyushiin-76 is more sturdy and C-17 is more fuel efficient. Both have advantages. It saves money to operate C-17 in peace time, and we will continue to operate Ilyushin-76 because we don't want to end up in a spares denial regime when we are at war and actually need to use these planes.

 

[sgarg]

The Il-78 is used in many countries, and there have been no complaints so far. "We are currently observing a growing demand for this airplane. Russia will be able to supply this machine to customers who bought our Sukhoi airplanes. Also, Russia may start supplying upgrades of its Il-476 refuelling system," he said.
Its technical characteristics were not the main reason why the Indian military gave up on the Il-78, says Vadim Kozyulin, director of the Conventional Arms Programme at the Centre for Policy Studies in Russia. "Military and technical cooperation between Russia and India is going through a difficult phase," he explains. "India's political elite currently favours closer ties with the United States and the EU."
"My estimate is that the Il-78 must be about 30 percent cheaper than the A330. The maintenance costs are roughly the same. When it comes to fuel costs, Russian planes are indeed less economical, but this has never been a problem for foreign Air Forces," Kozyulin told Vzglyad.

Losing further ground: Airbus pips <br>Il-78MKI in Indian tanker tender | Russia & India Report

@pmaitra, A-330MRTT is stuck basically because of finance ministry objections. The plane is almost double the price (up-front price).

 

[brational]

Why? Did you stop eating the same food your father was eating. What do you mean by "generation old"? The new version of IL-76 with new engines is being bought by RuAF. This version has higher payload and range.
What will IAF do with existing IL-76 and IL-78? Throw them away because they bought C-17! Doubt it. IL-76 were bought in 80s (not IL-78 which were bought when BJP was in power). IL-76 can easily last over 40 years. You will see IL-76 in IAF for another decade at least. IL-78 will be seen for three decades more.

C-17 has NOT replaced IL-76. IL-76 continues to be used daily for supply to forward areas.

It is @SajeevJino who said, "you have no idea..." and it seems to be true from your examples and instances

Why? Did you stop eating the same food your father was eating

. Same way your father used floppy disc, why are you using Flashdrives/Memory Chips? Oh, from your ideology it is pretty clear that you are still dwelling with Floppy Drive don't you? Have I ever mentioned to scrap those IL 76/78, you are living in delusion, you create an idea/situation of your own and start defending it without any support. Better you ask IAF why they have chosen C-17s and C-130s you will get the real picture.
Please develop a habit of reading the posts fully rather than jumping to the conclusion prematurely. So try to read the post again and understand what is written and then come up with your defending ideas. But I am sure you won't.
Why IAF rejected Russian Mi26s though they are highly capable and Chinooks does not come closer? If life of an aircraft is the primary factor then tell the MoD to upgrade the AVROs, they will last for at least a decade.

BTW, Which forward bases are served by IL-76s (Don't tell me Jodhpur, Udaipur and Bikaner). I need a list, not the bases where IL-76s landed for testing purpose? @pmaitra there is no question about capability. The concern is about availability.

 

[Ray]

How much refuelers are used?? IL-76/78 fleet has seen low use. ATF is not a big issue if the usage is low.

India has no long range bombers which are the primary clients of refuelers.

Most likely these planes will be bought and then decorate the tarmac for years. Why not IL-78 which at least cost less.

Cost of fuel, cost of maintenance, cost of life cycle makes up the decision.

ATF does matter since positioning ATF in remote areas adds to the costs.

Airbus range is 15,700 km as per open source.

IL 78 range is 7,300 km as per open sources.

 

[sgarg]

It is @SajeevJino who said, "you have no idea..." and it seems to be true from your examples and instances . Same way your father used floppy disc, why are you using Flashdrives/Memory Chips? Oh, from your ideology it is pretty clear that you are still dwelling with Floppy Drive don't you? Have I ever mentioned to scrap those IL 76/78, you are living in delusion, you create an idea/situation of your own and start defending it without any support. Better you ask IAF why they have chosen C-17s and C-130s you will get the real picture.
Please develop a habit of reading the posts fully rather than jumping to the conclusion prematurely. So try to read the post again and understand what is written and then come up with your defending ideas. But I am sure you won't.
Why IAF rejected Russian Mi26s though they are highly capable and Chinooks does not come closer? If life of an aircraft is the primary factor then tell the MoD to upgrade the AVROs, they will last for at least a decade.

BTW, Which forward bases are served by C-17s (Don't tell me Jodhpur, Udaipur and Bikaner). I need a list, not the bases where C-17s landed for testing purpose? @pmaitra there is no question about capability. The concern is about availability.

IL-78 were bought in 2000s. That is some 12 years back. These airplanes were bought from Russia, not USSR. Your generational argument is completely flimsy. My point is very straight-forward - what has changed in terms of arguments just a few years later.
And yes, it makes sense to upgrade Avros, as this CAN BE DONE BY LOCAL INDUSTRY. I have said so on this forum.
Why this "availability" drum is being beaten so loudly for certain type of equipment? This question is important as other forces have bought the same equipment and is maintaining it without problems. IL-78 were bought by China after India.

 

[Ray]

Why? Did you stop eating the same food your father was eating. What do you mean by "generation old"?

I would say yes.

What one of my aunts cooked was mouth watering, and with spices and cooking techniques which were of the old generation and which none of the new generation found time and inclination to pick up. I miss those meals, but then I have been forced to accept the change.

I wonder how many today are lucky to eat or get the real 'old generation' food?

In fact, I am astounded with the rapturous delight folks take and talk about Italian, Mediterranean, Spanish. 'fusion' food etc and other foods as if it was heavens descended on earth.

In fact, the so called 'fabulous' risotto that beings delight to many is nothing but what we Bengalis call kitchuri in another style. We eat it on a rainy day, when none wants to cook or when we are recovering from sickness.

So, there you go - you are not aware of the changes today.

The new version of IL-76 with new engines is being bought by RuAF. This version has higher payload and range.
What will IAF do with existing IL-76 and IL-78? Throw them away because they bought C-17! Doubt it. IL-76 were bought in 80s (not IL-78 which were bought when BJP was in power). IL-76 can easily last over 40 years. You will see IL-76 in IAF for another decade at least. IL-78 will be seen for three decades more.

C-17 has NOT replaced IL-76. IL-76 continues to be used daily for supply to forward areas.

Russian AF has no options to buy what they make.

As far as the ILs is concerned that the IAF has, it will continue to use them. Nothing wrong with them except that they are ATF guzzlers and the Indian economy is not based on the concept of 'waste economy'.

However, India has to decide what is best to balance the budget, short term and in the long term taking into the life cycle cost.

The only issue that will be niggling is that having a plethora of aircraft with add to the spares and maintenance issues.

 

[sgarg]

Cost of fuel, cost of maintenance, cost of life cycle makes up the decision.

ATF does matter since positioning ATF in remote areas adds to the costs.

Airbus range is 15,700 km as per open source.

IL 78 range is 7,300 km as per open sources.

I think the range as MRTT will be different as compared to airliner.

From Wiki, the figure from A-330MRTT is - Fuel Capability: 111,000 kg (245,000 lb) max, 65,000 kg (143,000 lb) at 1,000 nmi (1852 km) with 2 hours on station

The IL-78MKI is a tailor-made variant of IL-78M and is equipped with Israeli fuel-transferring systems. These aircraft were deployed by the Indian Air Force (IAF) and can refuel six to eight Sukhoi Su-30MKIs in a single operation. The variant took its maiden flight on 11 January 2003.

IL-78 Midas Air-to-Air Refuelling / Transport Aircraft - Airforce Technology

As far as the ILs is concerned that the IAF has, it will continue to use them. Nothing wrong with them except that they are ATF guzzlers and the Indian economy is not based on the concept of 'waste economy'.

ATF is one of the factors in a decision. How much is the usage of IL-78? The usage determines ATF need. Furthermore IL-78 has received new engines.

 

[brational]

IL-78 were bought in 2000s. That is some 12 years back. These airplanes were bought from Russia, not USSR. Your generational argument is completely flimsy.

It is not a rocket science to understand that Motorola C130 can not match the features of iphone.

My point is very straight-forward - what has changed in terms of arguments just a few years later.

How many platforms were offering Mid Air refueling Tankers during 2000-02 and what were their performance parameters (Range, Flight hours, fuel consumption and LCC)? It is possible that IL-78 was the best option in 2000.

yes, it makes sense to upgrade Avros, as this CAN BE DONE BY LOCAL INDUSTRY. I have said so on this forum.

Oh, its interesting! then why IAF is not pushing for the upgrades? You must be betting that IAF needs foreign toys to decorate the Air Bases.

Why this "availability" drum is being beaten so loudly for certain type of equipment? This question is important as other forces have bought the same equipment and is maintaining it without problems. IL-78 were bought by China after India

Availability drum is being beaten so loudly because you can not run your Car if Petrol is not available in the market. Wise people keeps the alternative and very wise people like you sit idle and give lame excuses like - Have you stopped eating those your father ate?
We do not have a license production agreement with Russia for Il -76/78 spares and we do not copy like the Chinese. IAF must have studied every other aspect as @Ray mentioned, Range LCC, Fuel and so on along with a Reliable and steady spare supply before jumping into another Platform which as per you is less efficient than Il-78.

It will be better if you can throw some light on how China is maintaining their IL-78s.

 

[sgarg]

@brational, sarcasm is NOT a replacement of facts.

I am sure more IL-78 would have been bought IF BJP won the elections in 2004. There was a change in government with changed priorities. So European origin A330-MRTT became a preferred option later in 2008.
Another factor could have been MMRCA for which a European fighter was to be bought.

There were definitely Western origin refuelers available in early 2000 if not A330-MRTT. However government of that time would have also considered all aspects (as in later case).

Change of refueler platform is definitely an example of bad planning. If IL-78 was not suitable, why it was bought. If it was, then why the change??

 

[brational]

@brational, sarcasm is NOT a replacement of facts.

I am sure more IL-78 would have been bought IF BJP won the elections in 2004. There was a change in government with changed priorities. So European origin A330-MRTT became a preferred option later in 2008.
Another factor could have been MMRCA for which a European fighter was to be bought.

There were definitely Western origin refuelers available in early 2000 if not A330-MRTT. However government of that time would have also considered all aspects (as in later case).

Change of refueler platform is definitely an example of bad planning. If IL-78 was not suitable, why it was bought. If it was, then why the change??

You are funny! You are the one who knows everything. Keep going!:thumb: Do not quote me in future.

 

[sgarg]

@brational - your quote:

IL 76 is a generation old platform, one should not claim that what was suitable during 70s and 80s will remain suitable through 2020s and 30s. We had no other option in the past than Russian heavy lifters but now we have C-17, C-130 and so on. I'm not a defense expert but I know that requirements change with time. The fact is TAT of western machines are far more efficient than the Russians for whatever reasons. IAF needs the best machine against the money spent.

Wikipedia says IL-78 was introduced in 1984. So according to you the plane already became obsolete in 2015. India bought these obsolete planes in 2003, China in 2005, and Russian Air Force continues to buy them today. And BTW, China is producing a version of this plane domestically using the same engines that are on IAF obsolete planes.

Sure I would not quote you in future looking at your HUGE wisdom.

 

[brational]

If anyone has comprehension issues I have nothing to do with it. For readers, let me clarify, IAF is the prime user here and they are the best managers to decide what is good and useful for them. Let me quote my previous post again,

IL 76 is a generation old platform, one should not claim that what was suitable during 70s and 80s will remain suitable through 2020s and 30s. We had no other option in the past than Russian heavy lifters but now we have C-17, C-130 and so on. I'm not a defense expert but I know that requirements change with time. The fact is TAT of western machines are far more efficient than the Russians for whatever reasons. IAF needs the best machine against the money spent.

If any one could find the term obsolete above. It is clearly mentioned about suitability for a particular role in the context of time, requirements and TAT.

India is a buyer here, not the producer. If India were Producing such platforms, IAF would have been compelled to buy them from Local vendors even they were not suitable for the operational point. If anybody wants Russia to buy A330 or similar platforms from other countries, it is obvious that Russia won't so does China. India discarded Mig 25 in 2005 but the same machine is active with RuAF and many others. Does that mean Mig 25 is obsolete? Mig 25 is no more suitable for our Air Force since alternative solutions are available which are Cheaper and far more efficient to perform the same role played by Mig 25.

Again, if IAF, MoD and Ministry of Finance selects IL 78 again, I will not tear off my hairs as to Why Airbus's product got rejected and if rejected then why they were selected earlier. This is a forum for discussions based on facts and common sense not a place where you make random comments to increase the Count of Posts and earn badges. If my comments are irrelevant, sarcastic and baseless @mods can take the best action.

 

[archie]

.

I think @sgrg even don't Know what the actual problem and how much we can afford from other countries, He just want to put his views favor some Russian Piece of Junk, and thinks those IAF officials were fools who selected this,

Just read the Below Article, Is sure you won't

The Beta Coefficient: Aerial-refueling aircraft in the Indian context: a capability review

Hey this Graph seems to indicate worse performace for Airbus.. Though it Indicates longer flying time but fuel usage seems more for a unit amout of fuel it carries. See how steep the slope of M330 is compared to KC10 or IL78. this graph seems to indicate Airbus would be a fuel guzzler

Maintance of 4 engines and spares would play a role in driving cost of mission which might be a factor for choice

You tell me actual war scenarios where il-78 will fall short.

Im not questioning the capability of IL78.. im comparing the capability with other aircraft

 

[SajeevJino]

You allude that earlier iaf officers were fools who bought Il78? Why did they mount Israeli AWACS on il76 and not airbus 330 earlier? What changed now? I want to know.

Saar, you know that too, should I say one more time

earlier we don't have an option to buy such modular good pieces due to some political interference

Do you know Army favors Arjun yet again Govt Buying T 90 ..