ADA Tejas Mark-II/Medium Weight Fighter

[Sancho]

The EW suite is still under development for Mk2, it was never for mk1a as mk1a came into picture only in 2015.

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It always was planned for MK2, just as AESA and other upgrades, since that is the only Tejas version that will meet the ASR. But since MK2 would not be developed and certified till 2025, HAL offered the MK1A compromise as a stop gap solution, that included some of the MK2 upgrades. Thankfully IAF was generous and accepted the plan, although it still will remain a low performance fighter, but that approval and the coming FOC gave Tejas the time to be a success someday.
Now we make basic modernisation of the radar, RWR and SPJ and with more space and some other fixes, MK2 might be able to integrate the SPJ and hopefully add MAWS too.

 

[Enquirer]

It always was planned for MK2, just as AESA and other upgrades, since that is the only Tejas version that will meet the ASR. But since MK2 would not be developed and certified till 2025, HAL offered the MK1A compromise as a stop gap solution, that included some of the MK2 upgrades. Thankfully IAF was generous and accepted the plan, although it still will remain a low performance fighter, but that approval and the coming FOC gave Tejas the time to be a success someday.
Now we make basic modernisation of the radar, RWR and SPJ and with more space and some other fixes, MK2 might be able to integrate the SPJ and hopefully add MAWS too.

FYI...
A project is currently underway to integrate SPJ & RWR into Mk1A *internally* !!

 

[Sancho]

The "consultancy" was asked for "naval" variant, they didn't asked Airbus to design for them, it was related with some aerodynamic issue

Airbus was hired twice, once in the basic LCA programme to consult in the testing and certification of LCA (where ADA even ignored their suggestions as CAG criticised) and to fix the design issues of NLCA (since as usual ADA thought they can do it alone). Airbus was hired to support the re-design and weight reductons of the gearbay/gear.

SARAS has overweight issue rather than drag. LCH is neither overweight nor has drag issue, IJT had issue related with spin and stall test.

You clearly need to inform yourself more, before making random statements.

LCA Radome case acc to CAG report complains about bad design and choice of materials rather than material constraints.

Contradiction again

So in that case the argument doesn't stand much that Radome showed us the limitation.

Of course it stands, because no matter what kind of story you make up as an excuse, the fact remains that we had to import a radome, because our version was not only faulty, but even after years of trying to fix it, we were not able to improve it! That's why we had no choice then to pay extra for foreign stuff, to fix problems that could had been avoided from the start or at least years ago, just as Kaveri, the MMR, weapon developments ended with no way to go, other than buying foreign stuff.

Would like to have a consultancy partner on AMCA design but since preliminary design is completed, I don't see that consultancy has a future.

We don't just need a consultancy partner, we need a long term development partner, otherwise AMCA is the next failure in the making. It's not only because we lack all the basics for fighter developments at all, as LCA showed us, but when even more capable industrial countries seek help, because they understood how demanding a 5th gen fighter project is, we should realise where we stand!

WAD concept has been shown by various Indian firms, including SAMTEL, DARE showed their own concept while HALBIT shown the concept used on bl3 SH,

Not really, Samtel so far makes MFDs, but no touch screen WADs, HAL only showed the Israeli system, that was offered for production in India and not an own system

drdo wasn't able to develop EW then what are on MIG29UPG of Indian airforce

They were able to develop basic EW systems, which they did for the upgraded Mig 27 for example, but for modern or advanced systems, they need foreign help. That's why we chose Israeli, Italian or Swedish partners/systems for upgrades and indigenous aircrafts.

Do you Have an idea what EW suite is being developed for Tejas which acc to you failed???

Since I was the one who showed it to you, yes I know that it's a JV with Israel. Check our PM discussions.
But since that's not the system that is planned for MK1A, we also know where that development stands.

And last I heard DRDO will keep developing the variants of radars under project Uttam in which GaN based one will go on

You seem to have forgotten about this:

https://defenceforumindia.com/forum...ghter-jet-contest.78028/page-120#post-1415248

No Indian GaN development funded so far, while the RFI is specifically asking about it.

 

[Sancho]

FYI...
A project is currently underway to integrate SPJ & RWR into Mk1A *internally* !!

RWR are already internal and if you have seen the official ADA LCA MK1A load graphics, you would know that they plan with an external SPJ on 1 external wing station and a twin rack with 2 x WVR missiles on the other side.

 

[Sancho]

Given Risk reward ratio Navy should develop MK II, in worse case they will have a custom made trainers and practice aircraft's to train their pilots

If that would be the aim, they could simply finish the NLCA MK1 design and put it into serial production. The MK2 was specifically aimed at INs operational needs, to make NLCA anywhere close to be useful (which a light class single engine fighter never will be), so wasting money for the NLCA MK2 would not be needed, but then again, buying proper twin seat versions of the new fighter would be more beneficial for training as well.
Unless IN requires a CATOBAR trainer, there is no scope for NLCA anymore.

In best case if this works navy will have mix of AMCA / Tejas on carriers. ( may be F-18+Tejas or Rafale+Tejas)

F18 or Rafale are the replacement for NLCA

 

[Enquirer]

RWR are already internal and if you have seen the official ADA LCA MK1A load graphics, you would know that they plan with an external SPJ on 1 external wing station and a twin rack with 2 x WVR missiles on the other side.

Seems like another self-conceited fanboy who doesn't appreciate true info but will waddle in own fantasies & delusions!

I wasn't stating 'what is' but 'what will be'. Also, RWR hasn't yet been integrated into Tejas internally!!

 

[Kshithij]

Airbus was hired twice, once in the basic LCA programme to consult in the testing and certification of LCA (where ADA even ignored their suggestions as CAG criticised) and to fix the design issues of NLCA (since as usual ADA thought they can do it alone). Airbus was hired to support the re-design and weight reductons of the gearbay/gear.

Do you think conaultancy is ToT? Why would anyone give ToT to India ir help India in making LCA faster? You yourself have answered this question by saying that these consultants were meant for certification. Certification is not exactly consultancy but just a formal approval of reliability.

Of course it stands, because no matter what kind of story you make up as an excuse, the fact remains that we had to import a radome, because our version was not only faulty, but even after years of trying to fix it, we were not able to improve it! That's why we had no choice then to pay extra for foreign stuff, to fix problems that could had been avoided from the start or at least years ago, just as Kaveri, the MMR, weapon developments ended with no way to go, other than buying foreign stuff

We had to import a radome because UPA did not allow proper testing if radome and suddenly wanted IOC in 2013. These people had made radome for jaguar and used similar technology but did not work. Then they imported but that too was bad. So, a reorder for a new radome was placed with modifications from a foreign country.

This shows that even foreign companies don't make things right. It was merely due to UPA mismanagement that India was not able to make radome

We don't just need a consultancy partner, we need a long term development partner, otherwise AMCA is the next failure in the making. It's not only because we lack all the basics for fighter developments at all, as LCA showed us, but when even more capable industrial countries seek help, because they understood how demanding a 5th gen fighter project is, we should realise where we stand!

Which developed country asked for technology help for 5th generation plane? What do you mean by long term partner? It will be same as importing. Also, considering that till 1995, there was no actual 5th generation plane and the USA first made F22 from scratch, I don't see a reason to say India can't. Everything has a first time. Simply insisting on JV for every project just because it is the first time being done is absurd

They were able to develop basic EW systems, which they did for the upgraded Mig 27 for example, but for modern or advanced systems, they need foreign help. That's why we chose Israeli, Italian or Swedish partners/systems for upgrades and indigenous aircrafts.

What modern system? EW is not about hardware but about software. So, let us not speak about incapability in software coding. India is not buying Italian or swedish EW. Israel may be giving ToT for EW and hence India may be buying from Israel. InacapaIncap does not arise in EW. Bringing words like 'modern' will not scare anyone

Since I was the one who showed it to you, yes I know that it's a JV with Israel. Check our PM discussions.
But since that's not the system that is planned for MK1A, we

Mk1A will have EW in pod due to lack of space. But it will be there

No Indian GaN development funded so far, while the RFI is specifically asking about it.

GaN development is funded but the radar is not ready yet. Without the UTTAM radar being readied, funding GaN radar is inappropriate. As if now, GaN module development,not radar, is being fundee

 

[Flame Thrower]

FYI...
A project is currently underway to integrate SPJ & RWR into Mk1A *internally* !!

Source.....I am not sure of RWR, but SPJ is not going inside MK1A.

I think RWR is already installed in mk1.

As far as I know, there is no internal space.

 

[Enquirer]

Source.....I am not sure of RWR, but SPJ is not going inside MK1A.

I think RWR is already installed in mk1.

As far as I know, there is no internal space.

RWR is not already installed - project is underway!
SPJ is currently external, but the 'rearrangement' of LRUs for maintenance purposes might have created some space. It's reasonable to assume that an internal SPJ would be only about half the weight & volume of an external pod (no internal frame & outer protective casing; cooling & power supply *maybe* shared with other LRUs....).
There's no indication of when the project would be completed - but it is designated for Mk1A.
My source is Indian parliament proceedings....

 

[Flame Thrower]

RWR is not already installed - project is underway!
SPJ is currently external, but the 'rearrangement' of LRUs for maintenance purposes might have created some space. It's reasonable to assume that an internal SPJ would be only about half the weight & volume of an external pod (no internal frame & outer protective casing; cooling & power supply *maybe* shared with other LRUs....).
There's no indication of when the project would be completed - but it is designated for Mk1A.
My source is Indian parliament proceedings....

Would you share those Indian parliament proceedings.....

Thanks in advance....

 

[Steven Rogers]

Airbus was hired twice, once in the basic LCA programme to consult in the testing and certification of LCA (where ADA even ignored their suggestions as CAG criticised) and to fix the design issues of NLCA (since as usual ADA thought they can do it alone). Airbus was hired to support the re-design and weight reductons of the gearbay/gear.




You clearly need to inform yourself more, before making random statements.



Contradiction again




Of course it stands, because no matter what kind of story you make up as an excuse, the fact remains that we had to import a radome, because our version was not only faulty, but even after years of trying to fix it, we were not able to improve it! That's why we had no choice then to pay extra for foreign stuff, to fix problems that could had been avoided from the start or at least years ago, just as Kaveri, the MMR, weapon developments ended with no way to go, other than buying foreign stuff.



We don't just need a consultancy partner, we need a long term development partner, otherwise AMCA is the next failure in the making. It's not only because we lack all the basics for fighter developments at all, as LCA showed us, but when even more capable industrial countries seek help, because they understood how demanding a 5th gen fighter project is, we should realise where we stand!



Not really, Samtel so far makes MFDs, but no touch screen WADs, HAL only showed the Israeli system, that was offered for production in India and not an own system



They were able to develop basic EW systems, which they did for the upgraded Mig 27 for example, but for modern or advanced systems, they need foreign help. That's why we chose Israeli, Italian or Swedish partners/systems for upgrades and indigenous aircrafts.



Since I was the one who showed it to you, yes I know that it's a JV with Israel. Check our PM discussions.
But since that's not the system that is planned for MK1A, we also know where that development stands.




You seem to have forgotten about this:

https://defenceforumindia.com/forum...ghter-jet-contest.78028/page-120#post-1415248

No Indian GaN development funded so far, while the RFI is specifically asking about it.

Dassault was hired at the beginning for consultancy. But again consultancy is not equal to orders for implication. Even in annual report, kindly check what report says "Quarterly workshops involving Aircraft design experts in major disciplines is in effect as part of Design Consultancy with M/s Airbus DS, Germany. The experts visit ADA for interactions with respective design teams. Based on the Design suggestions, design teams involving Aerodynamics, Structures and various groups have evolved Concept design of LCA (Navy) Mk2. ARDC, HAL as principal partner is involved in these design activities."

Bad design and selection of material is reported by CAG, but acc to NAL, Radome was made after the alignment with the radar, MMR performed well with Elta computers and MMR array on the same Radome, however the new Radome is also not so good and BAE initially failed to provide a good Radome, the range didn't improved much, that delayed the integration and BAE were asked for improvement which they made with new Radomes which again didn't work much well and a radar with 150kM was reduced to 80.

Radome is not an aerodynamic design which you will continue to fix, it is made by growing the materials and has their own compositions, they are designed aligned with the radar, and for a specific radar. They choose Kevlar over Quartz, that's how it got reduced range with small poweroutput, but anyways quartz to didn't did as expected.

Visit samtel avionics website again, they are so casing WAD, off course they don't manufacture it, but no one manufacture things to keep in the shelve.

Utter bull crap. Integration of the systems are more important than indigenization of every thing Mig29k carries EW suite developed by DARE and jammer, jointly developed based on Virgilus of Italy. Jaguar Upg contains EW suite developed in India AND RWJ also by DARE

Hell don't you know, that EW suite is developed on the lines of new EW suite that are on Gripen E and Rafale, sensor coverage is greater than any previous fighter in India. The protection suite performs passive maneuvers to protect the aircraft while jammer performs deception as well as active pulse jamming. And as per last report it flies with PV2. And from the start... Uttam and EW suite integrated were meant for Tejas Mk II, not for any in bw aircraft. But in the last Mk1a will be getting Jammer from drdo only.

GaA foundry at GATEC and RnD of the GaA at SSPL, drdo labs are working on GaN from 2006. Their are already various TRM made and tested. GaN is main focus now. And yes drdo funded the research and development of GaN in India.

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[Steven Rogers]

If that would be the aim, they could simply finish the NLCA MK1 design and put it into serial production. The MK2 was specifically aimed at INs operational needs, to make NLCA anywhere close to be useful (which a light class single engine fighter never will be), so wasting money for the NLCA MK2 would not be needed, but then again, buying proper twin seat versions of the new fighter would be more beneficial for training as well.
Unless IN requires a CATOBAR trainer, there is no scope for NLCA anymore.



F18 or Rafale are the replacement for NLCA

How much you suggest this and that, fact is Np3 being constructed for the testings of aircraft landing and arrestor hook. It is based on mk2 design of navy so yeah performance may change the mind, but light is light.

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[Chinmoy]

Maintain peace with honour, should deterrence fail ensure sovereignty of Pakistan Airspace. Integrity, Duty, Excellence, To be among the most respected Air Force of the world.

Recently got something............. Couldn't stop myself from posting for anything like this.

 

[Kshithij]

Maintain peace with honour, should deterrence fail ensure sovereignty of Pakistan Airspace. Integrity, Duty, Excellence, To be among the most respected Air Force of the world.

I don't understand what you want to say. Can you explain it?

 

[aghamarshana]

I don't understand what you want to say. Can you explain it?

Perhaps hallucinations after watching Ex Gagan Shakti '18

 

[Prashant12]

Post upgradation Tejas’ Mark-2 to become a medium weight fighter


BENGALURU: India is redesignating the Mark-2 upgrade of the homegrown Tejas aircraft as a medium weight fighter due to its increased weight and weapon carrying capacity. It is also designing the plane to replace the Mirage-2000 fleet of the Indian Air Force.

Aeronautical Development Agency, the design agency of the indigenous fighter aircraft programme, has finalised the systems and is looking to freeze the design of the medium weight fighter in a couple of months, a top scientist told ET. It is expected to have a maximum take off weight of 17.5 tonnes with an improvement of over 85% in weapons and payload carrying capacity to that of Tejas, light combat aircraft (LCA).

Tejas, powered by a single GE-404 engine, is a fly-by-wire fighter that has delta wings and no tail. Fly-bywire technology enables a pilot to control the plane electronically through computers. It has a a maximum take off weight of 13.5 tonnes.

“The LCA was designed to replace the MiG-21aircraft, whereas the Mk-2 is being designed to replace the Mirage 2000,” Dr Girish Deodhar, programme director of ADA told ET. “It is being redesignated as a medium weight fighter.”

India bought Mirage 2000 planes from Dassault Aviation of France in the 1980s. In 2011, Hindustan Aeronautics signed a pact with Thales and Dassault to upgrade the Mirage-2000 with new avionics, radar and weapons. Dassault has shut its Mirage plant since then.

The Tejas aircraft, which first flew in January 2001, is short of completing its final operational clearance, even as it has met the initial requirements set by the air force. The IAF has inducted over six Tejas aircraft in its No 45 Squadron called the Flying Daggers that is based in Sulur, near Coimbatore. It has placed order of 40 Tejas with an additional request for information placed with Hindustan Aeronautics for 83 more planes with the GE-404 engines.

After the initial flights of the LCA, the IAF had expressed concern over the low power thrust of the engine and asked ADA, a unit of Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) for design changes and more powerful engine for the LCA-Mk2. India has finalised the GE-414 engine, a powerplant similar to the one that powers the F-18 aircraft of Boeing.

The Gas Turbine andResearch Establishment or GTRE, a DRDO unit in Bengaluru, has failed to deliver the indigenous Kaveri engine for the Tejas fighter after nearly two decades of development.

https://economictimes.indiatimes.co...edium-weight-fighter/articleshow/64214939.cms

 

[kstriya]

Post upgradation Tejas’ Mark-2 to become a medium weight fighter


BENGALURU: India is redesignating the Mark-2 upgrade of the homegrown Tejas aircraft as a medium weight fighter due to its increased weight and weapon carrying capacity. It is also designing the plane to replace the Mirage-2000 fleet of the Indian Air Force.

Aeronautical Development Agency, the design agency of the indigenous fighter aircraft programme, has finalised the systems and is looking to freeze the design of the medium weight fighter in a couple of months, a top scientist told ET. It is expected to have a maximum take off weight of 17.5 tonnes with an improvement of over 85% in weapons and payload carrying capacity to that of Tejas, light combat aircraft (LCA).

Tejas, powered by a single GE-404 engine, is a fly-by-wire fighter that has delta wings and no tail. Fly-bywire technology enables a pilot to control the plane electronically through computers. It has a a maximum take off weight of 13.5 tonnes.

“The LCA was designed to replace the MiG-21aircraft, whereas the Mk-2 is being designed to replace the Mirage 2000,” Dr Girish Deodhar, programme director of ADA told ET. “It is being redesignated as a medium weight fighter.”

India bought Mirage 2000 planes from Dassault Aviation of France in the 1980s. In 2011, Hindustan Aeronautics signed a pact with Thales and Dassault to upgrade the Mirage-2000 with new avionics, radar and weapons. Dassault has shut its Mirage plant since then.

The Tejas aircraft, which first flew in January 2001, is short of completing its final operational clearance, even as it has met the initial requirements set by the air force. The IAF has inducted over six Tejas aircraft in its No 45 Squadron called the Flying Daggers that is based in Sulur, near Coimbatore. It has placed order of 40 Tejas with an additional request for information placed with Hindustan Aeronautics for 83 more planes with the GE-404 engines.

After the initial flights of the LCA, the IAF had expressed concern over the low power thrust of the engine and asked ADA, a unit of Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) for design changes and more powerful engine for the LCA-Mk2. India has finalised the GE-414 engine, a powerplant similar to the one that powers the F-18 aircraft of Boeing.

The Gas Turbine andResearch Establishment or GTRE, a DRDO unit in Bengaluru, has failed to deliver the indigenous Kaveri engine for the Tejas fighter after nearly two decades of development.

https://economictimes.indiatimes.co...edium-weight-fighter/articleshow/64214939.cms

Will the MK2 be a twin engine or get a bigger engine to operate a 17.5 ton bird??????????

 

[tsunami]

Does that mean they are looking for a 70 KN dry thrust engine???

 

[Adioz]

Post upgradation Tejas’ Mark-2 to become a medium weight fighter


BENGALURU: India is redesignating the Mark-2 upgrade of the homegrown Tejas aircraft as a medium weight fighter due to its increased weight and weapon carrying capacity. It is also designing the plane to replace the Mirage-2000 fleet of the Indian Air Force.

Aeronautical Development Agency, the design agency of the indigenous fighter aircraft programme, has finalised the systems and is looking to freeze the design of the medium weight fighter in a couple of months, a top scientist told ET. It is expected to have a maximum take off weight of 17.5 tonnes with an improvement of over 85% in weapons and payload carrying capacity to that of Tejas, light combat aircraft (LCA).

Tejas, powered by a single GE-404 engine, is a fly-by-wire fighter that has delta wings and no tail. Fly-bywire technology enables a pilot to control the plane electronically through computers. It has a a maximum take off weight of 13.5 tonnes.

“The LCA was designed to replace the MiG-21aircraft, whereas the Mk-2 is being designed to replace the Mirage 2000,” Dr Girish Deodhar, programme director of ADA told ET. “It is being redesignated as a medium weight fighter.”

India bought Mirage 2000 planes from Dassault Aviation of France in the 1980s. In 2011, Hindustan Aeronautics signed a pact with Thales and Dassault to upgrade the Mirage-2000 with new avionics, radar and weapons. Dassault has shut its Mirage plant since then.

The Tejas aircraft, which first flew in January 2001, is short of completing its final operational clearance, even as it has met the initial requirements set by the air force. The IAF has inducted over six Tejas aircraft in its No 45 Squadron called the Flying Daggers that is based in Sulur, near Coimbatore. It has placed order of 40 Tejas with an additional request for information placed with Hindustan Aeronautics for 83 more planes with the GE-404 engines.

After the initial flights of the LCA, the IAF had expressed concern over the low power thrust of the engine and asked ADA, a unit of Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) for design changes and more powerful engine for the LCA-Mk2. India has finalised the GE-414 engine, a powerplant similar to the one that powers the F-18 aircraft of Boeing.

The Gas Turbine andResearch Establishment or GTRE, a DRDO unit in Bengaluru, has failed to deliver the indigenous Kaveri engine for the Tejas fighter after nearly two decades of development.

https://economictimes.indiatimes.co...edium-weight-fighter/articleshow/64214939.cms

Bro I was about to post this good news and you beat me to it. Good job!

@Sancho bhai, still day dreaming about the SE MMRCA tender? Tejas Mk-2 is for meeting original ASQR meant for Tejas? I am sure the original ASQR did not ask for a medium fighter.

This is awesome, but the engine is a problem. Also, how much did they change the airframe to be able to morph into a medium fighter?

Will the MK2 be a twin engine or get a bigger engine to operate a 17.5 ton bird??????????

Still going to be a single engine IMHO.

 

[Steven Rogers]

Will the MK2 be a twin engine or get a bigger engine to operate a 17.5 ton bird??????????

Now for that MTOW, it requires a 110kN class, engine. Uprated Kaveri or F414 uprated variant. Also how many F404 have been ordered, will F414 be use on Tejas mk1a. Also earlier brochures showed a slight increase of 14.4 tons MTOW(when it was developed to meet ASQR) . Now it is 17.5 tons.

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