119 warships built, naval design celebrates golden jubilee

[Punya Pratap]

I was trying to say the same.

I know... I was only trying to simplify the argument

 

[ladder]

Dear Ladder thanks for your input but I was alluding to a proper Designing House like DND of IN not a production agency like OFB. VEry recently GoI has put an IAF officer on HAL board but still it does nt match to the impact DND makes where the end users themselves design their weapons platform..... I hope you see the difference I m trying to point out!

I was trying to say the same.

I know... I was only trying to simplify the argument

Putting some questions please answer.

OFB projects, that I asked a fellow poster to find out were modification and enhancement project, which were then mandated to OFB, and many of them were headed by officers from services, find out what happened to those.

Your take on DND is flawed. The equivalent of DND if projected to IAF would be strictly restricted to Air-frame designers.

The sub-system, designers and integrators are WESEE Indian Navy and NPOL.

Also, why hasn't DND come out with a submarine design?

And why would IAF invest in such a dept. when GoI couldn't secure a proper power plant for a Mach-2 system which barely achieved mach-1. The bottle-neck was power-plant and not air-frame.

For sub-system Indian Navy, is also dependent on DRDO and foreign suppliers.

But, comparing Naval system with Air Force system in itself is comparing apples and oranges. How many countries are into naval design and how many air-craft design, the answer will not be surprising, isn't it?

The only Air-force that designs and produces it's own fighter jets is, PAF, surprised?

So, it's not as simple as your statement that Navy did it and Army and IAF didn't do it. It is not black and white, but shades of grey. ( Study about recent developments in BRD of IAF)

For starting let, IAF write a proper and pragmatic ASQR for IJT, for which no firm responded as they didn't have a matching design. By placing a single IAF officer on HAL board wouldn't help.

=================

This post too, would in all probability also look like inane to you, , not my fault.

Helping in indigenisation doesn't mean setting up of own design houses. There are other ways into doing it.

 

[Punya Pratap]

Putting some questions please answer.

OFB projects, that I asked a fellow poster to find out were modification and enhancement project, which were then mandated to OFB, and many of them were headed by officers from services, find out what happened to those.

Your take on DND is flawed. The equivalent of DND if projected to IAF would be strictly restricted to Air-frame designers.

The sub-system, designers and integrators are WESEE Indian Navy and NPOL.

Also, why hasn't DND come out with a submarine design?

And why would IAF invest in such a dept. when GoI couldn't secure a proper power plant for a Mach-2 system which barely achieved mach-1. The bottle-neck was power-plant and not air-frame.

For sub-system Indian Navy, is also dependent on DRDO and foreign suppliers.

But, comparing Naval system with Air Force system in itself is comparing apples and oranges. How many countries are into naval design and how many air-craft design, the answer will not be surprising, isn't it?

The only Air-force that designs and produces it's own fighter jets is, PAF, surprised?

So, it's not as simple as your statement that Navy did it and Army and IAF didn't do it. It is not black and white, but shades of grey. ( Study about recent developments in BRD of IAF)

For starting let, IAF write a proper and pragmatic ASQR for IJT, for which no firm responded as they didn't have a matching design. By placing a single IAF officer on HAL board wouldn't help.

=================

This post too, would in all probability also look like inane to you, , not my fault.

Helping in indigenisation doesn't mean setting up of own design houses. There are other ways into doing it.

Ladder a post does nt look inane to me unless it is covering the larger picture.

Firstly we all know that what works for IN will not work for IAF but the point I have raised in my first post was the INTENTION to develop and make indigenous weapons platform.

I know NAK Browne had threatened to make Fighters out of BRD's and I also know how unfeasible is OFB as an organisation !

I repeat.... The first step towards indigenisation is an INTENT and IN has shown that through DND where as IA and IAF has not ! IA & IAF has till date left everything to DRDO/HAL and acted as end users without any inputs or participation during the designing phase....That is what I wish to point out!

I understand 1 IAF officer on HAL board is not going to change things over night but atleast its the right step towards involving the end users from the starting of any project.

As for submarine designs we do have Arihant so I dont get your point! If you are talking of conventional sub design then I think P 75I will be our last foreign collaboration ! So again IN is one step ahead!

 

[ladder]

Ladder a post does nt look inane to me unless it is covering the larger picture.

Firstly we all know that what works for IN will not work for IAF but the point I have raised in my first post was the INTENTION to develop and make indigenous weapons platform.

I know NAK Browne had threatened to make Fighters out of BRD's and I also know how unfeasible is OFB as an organisation !

I repeat.... The first step towards indigenisation is an INTENT and IN has shown that through DND where as IA and IAF has not ! IA & IAF has till date left everything to DRDO/HAL and acted as end users without any inputs or participation during the designing phase....That is what I wish to point out!

I understand 1 IAF officer on HAL board is not going to change things over night but atleast its the right step towards involving the end users from the starting of any project.

As for submarine designs we do have Arihant so I dont get your point! If you are talking of conventional sub design then I think P 75I will be our last foreign collaboration ! So again IN is one step ahead!

Intent was always there, sometime there was no political will and situation, sometimes money and some time corruption.

Vijayanta Tank was in service with army, I don't think you will place the onus of the killing of that tank (further iterations) on IA.

Also, Indian development policy was to develop only those technology which wasn't available off-the self. ( due to budget constraint). So, many systems for Army were available off the self. Even if not available at the starting, were subsequently made available at a friendly price which was hard for our polity to refuse. ( thus DRDO, was reduced to a competitor rather than developer in critical domain).
Army being larger service had always political interference in procurement. ( T-72 vs AMX-40 can be studied as an example)

But, navy as smaller service had escaped that scrutiny, Navy which earlier operated British design, never liked the Russian design ( especially crew comfort part) but, liked the fire power and sea keeping ability. Thus DND was set-up for mix-and-match and tropicalize the design to operate in warm waters.

It will be dishonest on our part, to not to say that T_72 too was found inadequate by Army, but due to many issues, some modification came on-line, others could not.

So, host of factors played it's role, and to put that Army, Air Force are averse to indigenisation is pretty hard on them.

 

[Punya Pratap]

Intent was always there, sometime there was no political will and situation, sometimes money and some time corruption.

Vijayanta Tank was in service with army, I don't think you will place the onus of the killing of that tank (further iterations) on IA.

Also, Indian development policy was to develop only those technology which wasn't available off-the self. ( due to budget constraint). So, many systems for Army were available off the self. Even if not available at the starting, were subsequently made available at a friendly price which was hard for our polity to refuse. ( thus DRDO, was reduced to a competitor rather than developer in critical domain).
Army being larger service had always political interference in procurement. ( T-72 vs AMX-40 can be studied as an example)

But, navy as smaller service had escaped that scrutiny, Navy which earlier operated British design, never liked the Russian design ( especially crew comfort part) but, liked the fire power and sea keeping ability. Thus DND was set-up for mix-and-match and tropicalize the design to operate in warm waters.

It will be dishonest on our part, to not to say that T_72 too was found inadequate by Army, but due to many issues, some modification came on-line, others could not.

So, host of factors played it's role, and to put that Army, Air Force are averse to indigenisation is pretty hard on them.

Point taken but also provide me your insight about the IA's attitude towards Arjun and IAF's attitude towards Tejas. I have posted a lot of quotes from senior ex IAF personnel who have this grouse that IAF was never involved from the designing phase.

Keeping all the factors (political / economical) in perspective IN being the lesser of all the services read the script better and adapted themselves and now DND is going to celebrate its Golden Jubilee!
The same economical and political factors applied to IN as well and more so when it came to finances available to IN.... I have said it earlier too that lesser finance allocation has benefited IN and acted as a catalyst for higher INTENT for indigenisation!

Case in point is the attitude of IAF and IN towards Tejas.... had it not been for IN Tejas would have been dead and buried!

 

[ladder]

Point taken but also provide me your insight about the IA's attitude towards Arjun and IAF's attitude towards Tejas. I have posted a lot of quotes from senior ex IAF personnel who have this grouse that IAF was never involved from the designing phase.

Keeping all the factors (political / economical) in perspective IN being the lesser of all the services read the script better and adapted themselves and now DND is going to celebrate its Golden Jubilee!
The same economical and political factors applied to IN as well and more so when it came to finances available to IN.... I have said it earlier too that lesser finance allocation has benefited IN and acted as a catalyst for higher INTENT for indigenisation!

Case in point is the attitude of IAF and IN towards Tejas.... had it not been for IN Tejas would have been dead and buried!

My points about Arjun and Tejas have been contained in their respective threads.

The thread in question was challenged by me because, it called it a failure of IA ad IAF to set-up own (dedicated) design houses to be an indication of aversive to indigenisation. Which is clearly not the case.
Creating a dedicated design house in case of IA and IAF would be duplication as DRDO already does it.

Navy could do it for two reasons, 1. pragmatism 2. stake.

For navy knew that being smallest service their project will always be third in priority by DRDO ( at least that phase that DND looks into) and secondly the stakes were low. The PAK navy never seemed to recover after 1971 and till recently Chinese navy didn't have the capability to operate in India's backyard. Therefore any delay could have been easily absorbed.

But, any delay in IA and IAF domain would have eroded our superiority over PAK ( not saying that delay didn't occur in the import route). So, the risk of in house design didn't probably take off and they depended on DRDO.

Till our economy got better, it was always either/or concept rather than both concept. Now, we can effortlessly fund the development and production of Dhanush along with Bharat-52 till ATAGS comes online. But was that then?

IF you rightly remember, Patriot was offered when Akash was nearing completion. It showed the confusion we had always faced. The offered system was a notch better than the system indigenously developed. With tech. restriction and low funding the planners were always in doubt whether to go for indigenous tech, whose further iterations may fail or delayed or go for off-the self product. Thus DRDO was reduced to a mere competitor in the tender. What compounded the factor was Pakistan acquired off-the self products ( earlier from western nations and then from China).


With higher economic growth and technology, IAF and IN now are not asking the DRDO to design counter to Pakistan, but, world class product.

Tejas has long ceased to be merely Mig-21 replacement or JF_17 counter. It is where I differ with IAF who have been asking for a finished product rather than allowing iterations for it and later MLU to update the earlier inducted ones. That is probably due to turf war. But, it gets compounded by delays of DRDO and HAL.

How can you say IN saved Tejas? Though I admire the IN's commitment to it. But, again what I wrote above kicks in, isn't the navy has lower stakes?

IA is getting serious to ARJUN ( ??/) because, the Turkish Altlay being acquired by Pakistan is again looming, like the time when there were credible rumours of Abrams being procured by Pak.

 

[Punya Pratap]

My points about Arjun and Tejas have been contained in their respective threads.

The thread in question was challenged by me because, it called it a failure of IA ad IAF to set-up own (dedicated) design houses to be an indication of aversive to indigenisation. Which is clearly not the case.
Creating a dedicated design house in case of IA and IAF would be duplication as DRDO already does it.

Navy could do it for two reasons, 1. pragmatism 2. stake.

For navy knew that being smallest service their project will always be third in priority by DRDO ( at least that phase that DND looks into) and secondly the stakes were low. The PAK navy never seemed to recover after 1971 and till recently Chinese navy didn't have the capability to operate in India's backyard. Therefore any delay could have been easily absorbed.

But, any delay in IA and IAF domain would have eroded our superiority over PAK ( not saying that delay didn't occur in the import route). So, the risk of in house design didn't probably take off and they depended on DRDO.

Till our economy got better, it was always either/or concept rather than both concept. Now, we can effortlessly fund the development and production of Dhanush along with Bharat-52 till ATAGS comes online. But was that then?

IF you rightly remember, Patriot was offered when Akash was nearing completion. It showed the confusion we had always faced. The offered system was a notch better than the system indigenously developed. With tech. restriction and low funding the planners were always in doubt whether to go for indigenous tech, whose further iterations may fail or delayed or go for off-the self product. Thus DRDO was reduced to a mere competitor in the tender. What compounded the factor was Pakistan acquired off-the self products ( earlier from western nations and then from China).


With higher economic growth and technology, IAF and IN now are not asking the DRDO to design counter to Pakistan, but, world class product.

There will always be a lengthy debate on IA/ ARJUN - IAF/TEJAS episodes!
You are quoting Patriot / Akash saga.....Recently the Javelin is being offered now so the temptation to ditch NAG will always be there but the point is.... are we being offered these weapons just to ensure we are always dependent and dont try to develop our own military tech? In case of Javelin it will be co development and co production of the NG version but still the timing is suspect as always specially since the very same US had banned Israeli Spike!

Tejas has long ceased to be merely Mig-21 replacement or JF_17 counter. It is where I differ with IAF who have been asking for a finished product rather than allowing iterations for it and later MLU to update the earlier inducted ones. That is probably due to turf war. But, it gets compounded by delays of DRDO and HAL.

How can you say IN saved Tejas? Though I admire the IN's commitment to it. But, again what I wrote above kicks in, isn't the navy has lower stakes?

IA is getting serious to ARJUN ( ??/) because, the Turkish Altlay being acquired by Pakistan is again looming, like the time when there were credible rumours of Abrams being procured by Pak.

I have been crying myself hoarse.... there is no weapons system or any creature in God's creation that was born perfect or mature...... perfection comes over a period of production and deployment so the Block/Tranche/Mark upgrades are the way to go same as humanity evolved from primates!

As for my allusion of IN saving Tejas... it is because IN was the one who came up with the funds though IN has lower stakes in it still gave the funds!

I agree with you.... Tejas is not a Mig 21 replacement anymore !

 

[ladder]

Can you throw some light on this.I am intrested to know how things shaped up then,

Favouritism: Paradoxically, the Brigadier who was in charge of India's APC project (which after 10 years was abandoned as a failure) is the same man who has been put in charge of the MBT project. Another Brigadier who was director of the CVRDE has only now been posted to Delhi after failing to produce a half-ton Jonga and an increased capacity Shaktiman load carrier.

In a letter written to the prime minister last year, a senior DRDO scientist in a fit of frustration listed the failures of the 24-year-old organisation. One of the major reasons he stated was that senior army officers unqualified for R & d work were being put in charge of the various units; he also pointed out that in the last 10 years the DRDO budget and manpower had increased 20 times, while not a single major project had been completed in that period.

With the introduction of the T-72 in the defence production set-up, the Vijayanta production line and the MBT projects are both destined for the scrap heap. Viewed objectively, however, it is possibly a case of literally tossing out the baby with the bath water.

Defence Ministry decides to manufacture Soviet T-72 tank in India : DEFENCE - India Today

 

[Kunal Biswas]

INS Kamorta has fitted a range of indigenous sensors and weapons to emerge 90 per cent indigenous.

 

[SilentKiller]

India should now work on making new ships particularly smaller faster and stealthier Missiles craft same way as ASW Kamorta.
I believer Indian Killer Squadron is getting old and needs a replacement..
Do any one has any update on any newer indian ship designs or plans.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

I don`t think their are any, But again their is a version of Saryu class OPV armed with Anti-ship missiles, This model is mainly for export and bigger than what 25th Killer missile boat squadron have now ..

============>>

I believer Indian Killer Squadron is getting old and needs a replacement..Do any one has any update on any newer indian ship designs or plans.

 

[ladder]

I don`t think their are any, But again their is a version of Saryu class OPV armed with Anti-ship missiles, This model is mainly for export and bigger than what 25th Killer missile boat squadron have now ..

============>>

I think Sri-Lanka will receive the first 2 of this design, from 2017.

 

[Bheeshma]

That cannot replace the veer class. Its too slow at 25 knots. I am not sure IN is interested in any replacement for the veer class. The Kora & Veer class can be replaced by Kamorta (again only 27 knots) based platforms which house a chopper.

 

[ladder]

That cannot replace the veer class. Its too slow at 25 knots. I am not sure IN is interested in any replacement for the veer class. The Kora & Veer class can be replaced by Kamorta (again only 27 knots) based platforms which house a chopper.

Changing it from CoDoD to CoDoG or CoGoG will propel it beyond 30 knots.

Yes IN is interested in replacement of Veer class, the RFI for 16 shallow water ASW is out ad they will in probability replace them.

Ideally Visby class or equivalent ( 700 t) was looked at but who knows, this ( 1300 t) can too be considered.

 

[Bheeshma]

The ASW corvette has different functionality than the killers. At 650 tonne they are almost up there with Visby and heavier than the tarantuls. Yes 16 would be 1 on 1 replacement for Veers and Abhay class but I am not sure they will be equipped with AShM's considering the kamortas don't have any.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

A well modified ' Car Nicobar Class ' can replace Veers ..