Should India buy Swedish Submarines?

[Zebra]

Should India buy Swedish Submarines?

Good Day,

Recently we saw Scorpene Submarine drama of Indian Navy.
We have to lease subs from Russia.
Even our enemy also knows that submarines are always weak point of India ,as per Chinese news.

It will be proper time for India to go for more -( big numbers )Subs . Just not few , may be 24-27 subs + what we got now .

As per Australian Navy's new study report ---- Buying one new Sub -is always better than buying a new Frigate.
Australian navy also got troubles with their subs .

Should India make a deal for Sweden's subs - let them build few in Sweden and more in India but no government dockyards please . Only private dockyards.

Please share Your Views .....

 

[maomao]

Having more subs is any-day better.......however corrupt GOI will delay it so much that the whole idea will get redundant when the deal fructifies.

Moreover, why only Sweden....why not South Korea or Germany?

 

[Rahul92]

Let me make It easy

The Gotland class submarines of the Swedish Navy are modern diesel-electric submarines, which were designed and built by the Kockums shipyard in Sweden. They are the first submarines in the world to feature a Stirling engine air-independent propulsion (AIP) system, which extends their underwater endurance from a few days to weeks. This capability had previously only been available with nuclear powered submarines.

Features

As of 2008, the Gotland-class attack submarine is one of the most modern submarines of the Swedish Navy in service, mainly designed for submarine missions such as anti-ship/anti-submarine warfare, collecting of intelligence (communications intelligence (COMINT), electronic signals intelligence (ELINT)), forward surveillance, special operations and mine-laying tasks.

On the water surface, the submarine is powered by two sets of MTU engines. While submerged, the Kockums-built Stirling engine Air Independent Propulsion (AIP) system is used to drive a 75 kilowatts (101 shp) generator for either propulsion or charging the batteries. A Stirling engine is particularly well suited for a submarine because the engine is near silent and can use the surrounding sea water as a heat sink to increase efficiency. Submerged endurance is dependent on the amount of liquid oxygen stored on-board and is described as "weeks". The class is characterized by its low acoustic signatures, extreme shock resistance and a competent combat system.[1]

Kockums touts extreme maneuverability for this class due to the hull design and a well-placed X rudder. The X rudder provides four control surfaces, along with two mounted on the sail, which enables sharp turns and the ability to operate very close to the seabed. Ship automation and computerized steering allow a single operator to steer the submarine in depth and course, which also resulted in a smaller crew complement, leading to good accommodation standards and low operating costs.

The class has many features that enhances stealth to enable it to remain undetected. All shipboard machinery are isolated and mounted on rubber dampeners to reduce vibrations and noises; a hydrodynamic hull design to reduce noise, infrared signature, and active sonar response; counteracting its magnetic signature with 27 independent electromagnets; short circuiting extremely low frequency (ELF) electrical fields; various hull coatings to reduce active sonar response; and coating the mast with radar absorbing material. Combined with the near silent operation of the Stirling generator and slow turning propeller to prevent cavitation, the boats are very difficult to detect underwater.

 

[Rahul92]

The German Type 212 class, also Italian Todaro class,[5] is a highly advanced design of non-nuclear submarine (U-Boat) developed by Howaldtswerke-Deutsche Werft AG (HDW) and Fincantieri S.p.a. for the German and Italian Navy. It features diesel propulsion and an additional air-independent propulsion (AIP) system using Siemens proton exchange membrane (PEM) hydrogen fuel cells. The submarine can operate at high speed on diesel power or switch to the AIP system for silent slow cruising, staying submerged for up to three weeks without surfacing and with no exhaust heat. The system is also said to be vibration-free, extremely quiet and virtually undetectable.

Type 212 is the first of the only two fuel cell propulsion system equipped submarines ready for series production by 2007, the other being the Project 677 Lada class submarine designed by Russian Rubin Design Bureau.

 

[Rahul92]

Scorpène class submarines are a class of diesel-electric attack submarine jointly developed by the French DCN and the Spanish company Navantia and now by DCNS. It features diesel propulsion and an additional air-independent propulsion (AIP).
The Chilean Navy ordered two Scorpène, which replaced two Oberon class submarines retired by the Chilean Navy. The Royal Malaysian Navy ordered two, and the Indian Navy ordered six. All Indian boats will be built in India at Mazagon Dock Limited, and the last two are to be fitted with the indigenous AIP module.[2] For the follow on requirement of six submarines, DCNS plans to offer a larger version of the submarine to the Indian navy.[3] In 2008, the Brazilian Navy ordered four Scorpènes.

The Chilean Scorpène class O'Higgins and Carrera were completed in 2005 and 2006, respectively, and are currently the only two in operation.

The Royal Malaysian Navy Scorpène class "KD Tunku Abdul Rahman" arrived at Port Klang on September 3, 2009 after departing from Toulon, France on July 11 on its maiden voyage to its home country

 

[LETHALFORCE]

The A26 would be the best choice IMO

http://defenceforumindia.com/showthread.php?t=8696&page=1

 

[Yusuf]

The same thing that holds Grippen back will hold anything Swedish back. What else it brings to the table? Nothing. We leverage our arms purchases to achieve other geo-political goals.
That apart, yes we need a whole lot of subs. The chinese have over 60 including several boomers. We have been left far behind. May be it's the hangover of HDW case along with Bofors that held our purchases earlier. With 6 scorps and 6 more potentially coming up, it would go a long way in enhancing indias under water fighting capability. Apart from that our own boomers will add more muscle. Problem is that these purchases would make up for attrition not actually grow the numbers though the value added in terms of quality will be good.

 

[amitkriit]

I read somewhere that Defense ministry is returning billions USD of allocated fund back to the government annually. Our submarine fleet is almost totally depleted, Air Force is crying for new platforms. It shows the current state of our defense procurement. Can't we upgrade our Shipbuilding capabilities so that we can build our ships and submarines at home? I know socialism is dead, but government needs to invest into such infrastructure.

 

[LETHALFORCE]

I read somewhere that Defense ministry is returning billions USD of allocated fund back to the government annually. Our submarine fleet is almost totally depleted, Air Force is crying for new platforms. It shows the current state of our defense procurement. Can't we upgrade our Shipbuilding capabilities so that we can build our ships and submarines at home? I know socialism is dead, but government needs to invest into such infrastructure.

Investing now would yield things 10 years down the road it will not fill the immediate gap, instead using the budget to buy 50% and invest the other 50% in infrastructure maybe more practical??

 

[SHASH2K2]

Investing now would yield things 10 years down the road it will not fill the immediate gap, instead using the budget to buy 50% and invest the other 50% in infrastructure maybe more practical??

LF we have already absorbed technology to make scorpenes in our country . Wouldn't it be wise to add one extra production line for scorpene and make more than 6 subs. This will be a stop gap arrangement while we look for some other machines.

 

[shuvo@y2k10]

i think after the 6 scorpenes and 6 p-75i submarines ,the indian navy should solely concentrate on nuclear powered subs ssn and ssbn.

 

[LETHALFORCE]

LF we have already absorbed technology to make scorpenes in our country . Wouldn't it be wise to add one extra production line for scorpene and make more than 6 subs. This will be a stop gap arrangement while we look for some other machines.

This would be a good stop gap measure along with another sukhoi production line.

 

[SHASH2K2]

i think after the 6 scorpenes and 6 p-75i submarines ,the indian navy should solely concentrate on nuclear powered subs ssn and ssbn.

If we want to deter Chinese from entering Indian ocean we will need more than those 12 subs. Indian Ocean is vast and we need more conventional subs to patrol it . Also with more and more AC in pipeline few of those subs will be tied with ABG and number of subs operating independently will be less and hence more number required.ALso it will be sheer waste of knowledge gained in building scorpenes by building just 6 scorpenes.

 

[Yusuf]

What you guys are forgetting is what capabilities do we need in the subs as well we don't just need attack subs, we need need subs in land attack role, boomers with SLBMs. We are not going to get such subs from the west, we will have to make them ourselves. It's all good to add subs to escort ACs and also in hunter killer role, but deterrence comes with SLBMs and we need those in some numbers along with long range SLBMs offcourse.

 

[Atul]

HDW & Bofors is history, (mind it i am not pro-congress) we need to move ahead, the German (HDW) Type 209 submarine & the Bofors are serving the forces well.

What makes me think is that is this government really serious about the Defence procurements. No force may it be the navy, Army or the Air force seems to be operating at its optimum allocated strength.

The GOI needs to think seriously about the GAP that is created by De-Commissioned equipments, how to pre-plan so that the deficit, is taken care in time, may be it the Gotland class or the Type 212, what we require is a force that will make the enemy think twice before planning any mis-adventure.

 

[Yusuf]

Yes it's time to move on but the rot set in, in the late nineties when crucial decisions were not taken with regards to defense purchase all due to the specter of Bofors and HDW, regardless of it's performance.

 

[sesha_maruthi27]

Buying new submarines or anyother defence related equipment for the INDIAN DEFENCE FORCES is a very long process which can be seen in the MMRCA deal. It is shame on the GoI and MoD to take this much time to sign a deal. Our babus are more keen on filling their pockets. We will not be able to modernise our defence forces until we are ruled by puppets and anti-indian leaders who make votes by throwing money and also play vote bank politics to stay in power.

 

[pmaitra]

Any particular submarine may be great, but the idea is to build up India's capability to build submarines with little foreign components. This is something that India needs to do, be it submarines or any military hardware. One may or may not like it, but PRC has done a good job of copying and reverse engineering. Not quite ethical, yes, but serves the purpose of not having to re-invent the wheel and for them, for all practical reasons, the end justifies the means.

India has done a good job of not doing this, with of course a few exceptions, but India seriously needs to build the capabilities of building airfract carriers and submarines, preferanbly with nuclear propulsion in a short time.

It would be nice of India to setup the infrastructure needed for building a nuclear submarine in a span of approximately 4 years, the same pace at which the USSR built many of its submarines. Here is a reference link regarding development speed: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Typhoon_class_submarine#Units

 

[Zebra]

GOI do not want to take any action againsy any arms suppliers .

HDW case ---- CBI closed case because German government stop further co-operation for that .May be looks like CBI was not in hurry at all and want to take its own time --as long as possible .German Government do not want to wait that much long .
The same with Bofors and ST Kinetics case.
After few more years the case will get closed ..............CBI already tried for Bofors the same .

Now the point is we got two options ,
1) Government companies can not do any better what they already did in past . They did not develop any indigenous subs yet for India ( Arihant the N-sub ---- After Government companies get failed , I think it was L&T's effort ). Government companies , let them keep out of Subs project at all. Let the private sector look after the issue.
GOI can work out which Indian companies intrested in Submarine business . Inform them what GOI is looking for and let them do what they want to do , like any JV with any one or they want to go by them selves let them do - what they do . GOI must give them any time dead line .

2) Buy as fast as India can may be in 4-5 years --- another new submarine deal for Indian Navy.

 

[Yusuf]

DRDO has not failed with the Arihant. LnT is only doing part work and is one of the many private contractors.
Further till a short time back indian policy towards private participation in ATMs production was not good and so we don't have good private capabilities on doing cutting edge work nor the production lines to churn things out. It's changing noe offcourse it it's going to be a long time before we have indian companies doing what Boeing or LM does.