Ukraine invites India to modernize T-90S Tanks

[Kunal Biswas]

Ukraine intends to invite India to modernize Russian T-90?

In the network appeared ( http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/land-forces/208-main-battle-tanks-armour-technology-144.html ) the image of the T-90S, which were implemented Ukrainian proposals for modernization of the machine. It is seen that the most of the Kharkov designers previously accumulated reserve for his tank "MBT". In particular, the commander's panoramic sight mounted NCP-6, a remote-controlled machine gun 12.7 mm. Armor "Kontakt-5" is replaced by a new protivotandemnuyu "Doublet." She also posted as side skirts. Plan to install the active protection and jamming IEDs. Apparently, the ammunition has been moved to zabashenny box. Engine B-92S2 will be replaced with 6TD-3 of 1400 hp, which should increase the mobility ,characteristics upgraded machine. The emergence of this pattern creates a certain intrigue. The fact is that at a recent exhibition in Delhi Russian side presented its version of the upgraded T-90S. The car attracted a lot of attention to the Indians. On the other hand, about a year circulating rumors that the Kharkov, allegedly, was taken from an unnamed country a copy of the T-90 in the desert coloring. Quite possibly, the Indians will want to compare the Russian modernized T-90 modernization of the Ukrainian and choose the best option. Although it is known that the license for the production of T-90 in India entails severe limitations on intervention in the design of the tank. Therefore, there is considerable doubt that the Indians want to quarrel with the Russian side, ordering upgrades Kharkov.

Andrew Tarasyuk (Kiev). Especially for the " Bulletin of Mordovia . "

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Gur Khan: What can I say? Market introduction of the T-90ms clearly showed who the leader in the world tank manufacturing and where is the place of our closest competitors: Ukraine is selling right and left T- 72, it inherited from the Soviet Union at absolutely rock-bottom, dumped. And now reached and the "modernization of the T-90C." However, the latter is an international scandal reeks!

And, at this time will be just India, allegedly transferred to Ukraine to study the pattern and modernization of the T-90C "Bishma" - under contract with the Russian Federation, On the other hand, Ukraine's proposal to upgrade T-90 look pretty on paper. In practice, the motor stated characteristics in power and with acceptable reliability they still have not and will not be long. Its stated as the standard power plant back in 2009 for the tank "MBT-M 'but the car was released and is still riding with the engine in 1200l.s. with its own weight of over 51 tons. Features DZ "knife" and "Doublet" I described earlier here and here - in fact, they are not so brilliant as it is stated in the Ukrainian advertising. Panoramic sight PNA-6 certainly better Russian commander unit of observation PN-5 "Agat-M", but before the panoramic sight of Russian modernized T-90ms it is still very far - especially for weight, dimensions. Thus, the installation of DZ "Doublet" and PNA-6 on the upgraded T-90 Ukraine increases its mass by about 4 tons. Given zabashennoy niche with ammunition and a longer logistics, mass upgraded tank was estimated 51-53 tonnes, with 48-49 tons of a Russian T-90ms. What gives? This automatically cuts the strategic mobility of the machine - travel through many bridges for it is automatically closed, the main military transport aircraft IL-76 as well not be able to carry. Yes, India is now in the United States has ordered a lifting C-17 transports.

Gur Khan attacks!: Украина ворует русские танки!

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Panoramic sight for the "Arjuna"


The report "Ukraine steals Russian tanks" we have already mentioned that in order to explore the possibilities to upgrade T-90S tanks, the Indian side has sent to Ukraine to Plant im.Malysheva KMDB and one of the tanks of this type, for a comprehensive modernization. But Russian officials probably will not see this as a problem, but according to this do not take any response.

Gur Khan attacks!: Панорамный прицел для "Арджуна"
http://topwar.ru/18723-panoramnyy-pricel-dlya-ardzhuna.html

 

[Damian]

Good, Ukrainians have some plenty of good ideas. Besides do not forget, Kharkiv Morozov Machine Building and Design Bureau and Malyshev Plant was the most progressive tank designing and manufacturing center in whole Soviet Union, they were the best there.

As for Aleksei "Gur Khan" Khlopotov outrage, well what do You expect, it is a long silent and holy war between supporters of KMDB and UVZ, and there is strong competition between both manufacturers to gain superiority on the preatty large part of tank market that is not dominated by more expensive and bigger/heavier western designs that are not suited for all countries.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Nerveless there is no weight issue if the tank is under 55ton..

A full prototype of this kind would be very interesting..

 

[Akim]

The point is that Kharkiv diesel two-stroke and their power in 1200 h.p. is enough for the dynamics of tank mass 52 tons For renewed Т-90S, sufficiently. It is not necessary to put more powerful engine. Because such motor has a defect. What anymore power - the less than resource.

 

[p2prada]

No point if Ukraine invites. Only India can invite. The problem is we don't give upgrades contract to anybody except the OEM or an Indian company(only on certain terms, mostly with OEM involvement). Laws and stuff.

Contracts can be given to others only if the OEM can no longer support the equipment anymore or has no upgrade plan for it.

 

[Akim]

No point if Ukraine invites. Only India can invite. The problem is we don't give upgrades contract to anybody except the OEM or an Indian company(only on certain terms, mostly with OEM involvement). Laws and stuff.

Contracts can be given to others only if the OEM can no longer support the equipment anymore or has no upgrade plan for it.

But airplanes India modernize in Ukraine. ( yesterday yet 5 units arrived to Kyiv).

 

[Austin]

AN-32 OEM is Antonov so they can modernise it , T-90S modernisation will be done by UVZ are their are OEM for the tank.

Any OEM can easily back out supporting their product if an upgrade is done with 3rd party without their consent or co-operation.

Also its a policy decision of MOD to get product modernised by OEM keeping long term support in mind reason we went for expensive M2K upgrade with French although cheaper Israel option was on table.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

If you read, It says Russian did-not show any opposition though they are not involve in this..

And according to him, India already send a T-90S to Ukraine for proposed upgrade..


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In my view, Ukraine offer is better..

 

[p2prada]

But airplanes India modernize in Ukraine. ( yesterday yet 5 units arrived to Kyiv).

Yes. The upgrade went to the original manufacturer, Antonov.

The Mig-21 Bison upgrade went to MiG.

Mirage-2000 upgrade to Dassault.

Su-30MKI upgrade to Sukhoi.

Mig-29 upgrade to MiG.

In some cases where OEM cannot provide upgrades, then HAL(and Raytheon) will deliver like the Jaguar upgrade program. Or it is handed over to a different country, like Israel upgrading Indian Navy Sea Harriers.

If Ukraine is to upgrade T-90S, then IA will need UVZ's permission. The contract will be very big too. So, I doubt that will happen.

 

[Pandora]

If you read, It says Russian did-not show any opposition though they are not involve in this..

And according to him, India already send a T-90S to Ukraine for proposed upgrade..


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In my view, Ukraine offer is better..

Even I like their offer Kunal, I think We should consider their offer seriously. As It not only full fill Arjun MBT Powerplant much power full requirement but also they will quiet cheaply provide the option to upgrade our T90S with 1400HP even if it increases Weight to 50-52T. All we can do is to refine their engine as per condition.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

There is a very fundamental issue why i think so..

And i am very much sure top brass think the same, Its not the specs but the entire systems is...

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Russian offer T-90MS a upgrade of T-90S, But if one goes for T-90MS it will be purchase of an entirely new tank not an Upgrade..

Where as Ukrainians are giving upgrade on existing tanks..

Even I like their offer Kunal, I think We should consider their offer seriously. As It not only full fill Arjun MBT Powerplant much power full requirement but also they will quiet cheaply provide the option to upgrade our T90S with 1400HP even if it increases Weight to 50-52T. All we can do is to refine their engine as per condition.

Ukrainian can surely boost our Indigenous 1500hp engine project..

FMBT specs are some what 50-55tons, There is no issue..

 

[Pandora]

There is a very fundamental issue why i think so..

And i am very much sure top brass think the same, Its not the specs but the entire systems is...

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Russian offer T-90MS a upgrade of T-90S, But if one goes for T-90MS it will be purchase of an entirely new tank not an Upgrade..

Where as Ukrainians are giving upgrade on existing tanks..




Ukrainian can surely boost our Indigenous 1500hp engine project..

FMBT specs are some what 50-55tons, There is no issue..

Is the 1800 Hp engine for Arjun is for real ? If this is true then it'll FMBT ,1800HP Engine requirement too.

 

[Damian]

IMHO the best for India will be diversification of support from foreing companies.

UVZ many times proved to not be a solid partner, besides this I will repeat the facts, UVZ in soviet times, was nothing else as a last league manufacturer for obsolete or simplified designs. The leader of soviet tank industry was KB-60M/KMDB from Kharkiv (currently Ukraine).

Not to mention that history of soviet tanks designing, shows directly that people standing behind UVZ actions, should be accused of treason of then existing Soviet Union, they wasted resources and money and used manipulation, lies and political connections to put literally in ruble hard work of Alexander Morozov and other people, trying to design best tanks as possible within demands of Soviet Armed Forces, and to make logistics a bit easier for them by unification of equipment.

While UVZ in pursuit of money and political privilage completely ignorned original order to manufacture KMDB product, the T-64, only with different engine as a stop gap before all teething problems could had been solved with 5TD engines used in T-64's. They just stole Morozov design, and redesigned it, to put in to service as their own tank, and the only reason for this, were money and political privilages, nothing else.

This is because UVZ was not capable to design any successfull design, after WWII when Morozov took his designing team and design bureau from Nizhny Tagil, and back to Kharkiv.

These are historical facts, I do not see a reason why India should work with them, neither Russians should... it is a pitty that Leningrad/St. Petersburg and Omsk bancrupted instead of UVZ, and that Russians do not have any cooperation with KMDB, where designers from the beggining knew how to design tanks properly.

 

[Akim]

AN-32 OEM is Antonov so they can modernise it , T-90S modernisation will be done by UVZ are their are OEM for the tank.

Any OEM can easily back out supporting their product if an upgrade is done with 3rd party without their consent or co-operation.

Also its a policy decision of MOD to get product modernised by OEM keeping long term support in mind reason we went for expensive M2K upgrade with French although cheaper Israel option was on table.

I will not argue possibly legally so to do or no. But if India passed the tank to Kharkiv - means am in the agreement of loop-hole.

 

[Damian]

I really can't wait to see how KMDB will redesign T-90S... but You all can be sure of one, Russians from UVZ will get mad when they see how well Ukrainians redesigned and upgraded their product.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

If we see such improvements by KMDB then certainly we can use same CITV from Arjun MK-2..

This may turn into Indian Army own`s SU-30MKI..

 

[The Fox]

I would like to ask the defence pro's in this forum WHAT DOES INDIA HAS TO OFFER FOR THE UKRAINIAN T90 TANKS " if they know how to upgrade they would do it on the indian tanks and more over they would do the upgrades on Arjun and reduce the weight....... i Honestly do not understand the move by the Ukrainians until it is a diplomatic move to woo the indians to do business with them or go to them for the spares for the Russian equipment

 

[farhan_9909]

the upgrade is very serious and would increase the t90S capabilities several folds
but the point is the t90s is procured very recently and is still a very good tank and dont need any upgrade before 2020

or better cancel the deal for further t90s and procure t90ms instead

 

[Kunal Biswas]

I would like to ask the defence pro's in this forum WHAT DOES INDIA HAS TO OFFER FOR THE UKRAINIAN T90 TANKS " if they know how to upgrade they would do it on the indian tanks and more over they would do the upgrades on Arjun and reduce the weight....... i Honestly do not understand the move by the Ukrainians until it is a diplomatic move to woo the indians to do business with them or go to them for the spares for the Russian equipment

Why we need to offer Ukrainians except the opportunity, Its us upgrading our tank and this is no JV..

Why i called SU-30MKI coz KMDB Updated T-90S can be updated with Israeli equipment that makes it like IAF`s MKI..

Arjun weight is no issue though Ukrainian may provide more powerful engines and ERA 'Knife' ..

but the point is the t90s is procured very recently and is still a very good tank and dont need any upgrade before 2020[

Because we can..

By the time Most T-90S get updated it will be 2020..

 

[sayareakd]

the upgrade is very serious and would increase the t90S capabilities several folds
but the point is the t90s is procured very recently and is still a very good tank and dont need any upgrade before 2020

or better cancel the deal for further t90s and procure t90ms instead

By 2012-13 we can have first upgrade and by 2020 we can have second upgrade, our enemy is China, so we have to keep this in mind.