Tejas grounds Medium Combat Aircraft project

[gokussj9]

Tejas grounds Medium Combat Aircraft project - The New Indian Express

Troubles in India's ambitious Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) project has inflicted gaping wounds where it would hurt the Indian Air Force (IAF) the most—the future plans for an Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA).

The Ministry of Defence (MoD) has "put on hold" the AMCA project that is being spearheaded by Defence Research and Development Organisation's (DRDO) Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA).

The reason for the sudden decision to send the AMCA project—which began in right earnest in 2006 as the Medium Combat Aircraft (MCA) development in 2006—to cold storage is to help ADA to focus all its energies to first work on completing the much-delayed LCA project. "The AMCA has been put on hold for the moment. This decision was taken recently to let the ADA focus on the LCA project," top Defence Ministry sources told The Sunday Standard. The AMCA project, for which the IAF provided the final Air Staff Qualitative Requirements (ASQR) in April 2010, may be taken up at a later date, sources said. But that will still be far away in the future.

India will buy Rafale planes from the French Dassault Aviation as part of its 126 Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA); in the tender there is a provision to buy another 63 as a follow-on order. That apart, India is working on the Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) in collaboration with Russia. With the final agreement on the design and development of the FGFA three months away, India will get at least 140 FGFAs for induction by 2027. Considering that most of the capabilities of AMCA will be covered by the MMRCA and FGFA planes, the revival of the AMCA will be a well thought-out one, sources said.

The AMCA's envisaged features include stealth, multi-role operations, adequate precision strike capabilities, including critical first-day missions such as Suppression of Enemy Air Defence (SEAD) and Destruction of Enemy Air Defence (DEAD).

The much-touted Tejas has taken 30 years already, at an escalated project cost of Rs 5,489 crore. Since the LCA project was sanctioned in 1983 at a cost of Rs 560 crore, the time overrun has resulted in a 10-fold increase in the project cost. The plane is yet to get even its Initial Operational Clearance (IOC) so that the IAF could take the plane for a spin. But sources pointed out that the LCA still lacks certain critical capabilities, including a reliable radar, and is deficient in at least 100 technical parameters. "The plane cannot fly on its own. It needs a lifeline in the form of support and monitoring of its systems from the ground by technicians," they said.

The LCA, in fact, gave creditable flying displays during the AeroIndia show in Yelahanka in Bangalore in February this year, and followed it up with weapons firing to hit both ground and aerial targets during the Iron Fist fire power display by the IAF in the Rajasthan's Pokhran ranges, again in February this year. "The common man thinks the plane is doing fine, its engine sounds great and the manoeuvres are perfect. But those flying and weapons firing displays are done with ground monitoring and support. The plane is still not ready to flying on its own," sources stressed. Their guess is the LCA may not meet its schedule of obtaining the IOC before July this year and it could take till December this year or early next year before it is ready. To give an example of LCA's troubles, the sources noted that LCA was grounded for three months between September and December 2012 following problems with its landing gear. "Normally, a combat plane is ready for its next sortie following a 30-minute attention from ground service personnel soon after it has returned from a mission. In the case of LCA, after a single sortie of about an hour or so, it needs three days of servicing before it can go for its next sortie," they said.

At present, the IAF has placed an order for 40 LCAs Mk1 to raise two squadrons by 2016-17 with HAL which is the nodal agency for production of Tejas. But these will be delivered with the American General Electric F404 engines which provide only 80 Kilo Newton power.

Later, 80 more LCAs of its Mk2 version will be ordered for raising four more squadrons. The LCA Mk2 will be powered by the GE F414 engines that provide a 90 Kilo Newton thrust.

@p2prada @Kunal Biswas , @ersakthivel @Austin

Are the statements in bold credible or is it just paid media at work?

 

[p2prada]

It is the case for all aircraft.

LCA is far, far, far away from any kind of operational flights. So this is the procedure followed during tests, where the aircraft is monitored from the ground.

In a ways this is good news. AMCA is merely a 5th gen aircraft set to be commissioned in 2030. Instead, they can have it commissioned as a 6th gen fighter or even a 5th/6th gen hybrid by 2035 instead. This will help us keep up with the Americans when their 6th gen hybrid shows up in 2030.

As for IOC being delayed by another year, let's see.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

This whole article is spicy a repetition of things of past nothing new..

1. Tejas project actually started a decade ago, Before that everything was conceptual..

2. 5,489 crores are nuts, China invested 30 billion just for engine research, this shows how we care about our own National defense..

3. IOC -1 is archived and Tejas are inducted already, the Project heading for IOC-2 in next 3-6 months and then FOC..

4. BS, LCA have a very sophisticated radar, Which is lot modern and power efficient, rest i dont have to mention as the author and so call expert only provided there imaginary numbers, Paid Media..

5. Oh, So to make the article look Intelligent he as to add this : "The plane cannot fly on its own. It needs a lifeline in the form of support and monitoring of its systems from the ground by technicians,", << Even Civilian Airlines follow so..

6. Because these are Prototypes and are meant to test certain aerodynamic or hardware functions, Prototypes are not combat fighters..

===========================
===========================

You read the LCA threads, You find these sort of Articles intentions, Either they are simply earning by trolling or Paid to do so for Foreign companies..

The much-touted Tejas has taken 30 years already, at an escalated project cost of Rs 5,489 crore. Since the LCA project was sanctioned in 1983 at a cost of Rs 560 crore, the time overrun has resulted in a 10-fold increase in the project cost.

The plane is yet to get even its Initial Operational Clearance (IOC) so that the IAF could take the plane for a spin.

But sources pointed out that the LCA still lacks certain critical capabilities, including a reliable radar, and is deficient in at least 100 technical parameters.

"The plane cannot fly on its own. It needs a lifeline in the form of support and monitoring of its systems from the ground by technicians," they said.

The plane is still not ready to flying on its own,

"Normally, a combat plane is ready for its next sortie following a 30-minute attention from ground service personnel soon after it has returned from a mission. In the case of LCA, after a single sortie of about an hour or so, it needs three days of servicing before it can go for its next sortie,"

 

[A chauhan]

Paid article and nothing else. All the aircrafts need such ground support and monitoring, their intention is clear from the sentence 'the plane can not fly on its own...'

 

[Yusuf]

India should look at UCAVs/ stealth UCAV. 5th gen in all likelihood is going to be the last manned gen of fighters. India shoukd get going on it. Aura has been talked about for a long time. Time we get it in service and in numbers.

FGFA will be indias 5th gen fighter and may be the only one if nothing happens on the F35 front.

 

[vram]

My reply to this astounding article is here.

http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/indian-air-force/43717-ada-lca-tejas-iv-61.html#post718915

Every SINGLE SENTENCE in that article is factually incorrect. When I get the time I am planning to write a line by line rebuttal for that article to the newspaper. Com'on guys are we recruiting journalists from LKG now. Have they never heard of researching a topic or even trying a wikipedia search in the internet....nonsense utter nonsense...
Even the Article Heading has no relation to the Tejas but he manages to vomit on the LCA while supposedly writing about the AMCA...WTF
@Kunal Biswas has explained it well. I appreciate the fact that he even took the time to point out the very very obvious crap in that article .
OH yeah and that MAGICAL NUMBER of 100 deficiencies that for the first time cropped up in another school assignment Pulitzer prize article from CNN-IBN has now been accepted as the gospel of truth.Way to go.....This article is now officially another entry for the Pultizer prize..LOL I jimbllyy cant take this anymore overdose of bullshit for one day
I MADE THE STATEMENT in LCA thread that people are going try derailing this project in the media now....many dint accept....watch the fun now.....its going to be shitfest from here on as the Tejas starts proving its mettle...

 

[p2prada]

All the aircrafts need such ground support and monitoring, their intention is clear from the sentence 'the plane can not fly on its own...'

Negative. All aircraft are supposed to be stand alone systems.

No functional aircraft needs ground support and monitoring. After IOC most of the ground monitoring systems for LCA will disappear.

Heck PAKFA/Su-35 and Super MKI will be equipped with satellite comm/nav system which will enable it to operate beyond LOS of the ground based comm systems let alone ground based monitoring systems.

 

[p2prada]

Even the Article Heading has no relation to the Tejas but he manages to vomit on the LCA while supposedly writing about the AMCA...WTF

The whole article is related to Tejas.

@Kunal Biswas has explained it well. I appreciate the fact that he even took the time to point out the very very obvious crap in that article .

Except for Point #6, all his other points are wrong. I have merely stopped replying to his posts. But when it's wrong, it is simply wrong.

 

[ice berg]

This whole article is spicy a repetition of things of past nothing new..


2. 5,489 crores are nuts, China invested 30 billion just for engine research, this shows how we care about our own National defense..

China invested around 100 million dollars on J-10. First flight in 98 and FOC around 2004/2005. Engine is another ballpark entirely.

 

[vram]

The whole article is related to Tejas.



Except for Point #6, all his other points are wrong. I have merely stopped replying to his posts. But when it's wrong, it is simply wrong.

IOC-1 was achieved - Fact.
IOC-2 - Will be given after testing of LSP-8 which has already flown and PV-1 ready - FACT again. THE SU-30 the MIG 29 and the Mirage where all given clearance for importing without demonstrating BVR capability in the IAF. BUT strangely enough this is one of the Parameters for IOC itself in LCA tejas. But that is a arguement for another day.

The cost- Again fact but nobody considers the inflation when talking about escalations. 1 billion in todays cost is damn cheap for a fighter program. No country came come near this cost for a new fighter jet design from the basic drawing board phase.Not to mention the contribution for growth to India aero Industry.We already had the discussion on 1983 figure I and stick to my points.

The radar is the Elta-2032M hybrid MMR with the processor being the main isreali contribution. THis information is out there from 2010. Dont know what the journo means by no reliable radar. The Tejas is expected to Fire BVR's this year. Impossible without a radar.The fighter radar is expected to be locked on the target and provide a beacon for the BVR launch.

To give an example of LCA's troubles, the sources noted that LCA was grounded for three months between September and December 2012 following problems with its landing gear.

This is a complete LIE. Every one who was flowing the program knows that the grounding was due to the canopy Hieght issue. The writer has confused the NAVAL LCA 's landing gear issue with this program to try and include more ammo for his smear campaign. The extent of stupidity is breathtaking

But those flying and weapons firing displays are done with ground monitoring and support. The plane is still not ready to flying on its own,"

Oh for heavens sake.. what does he mean fly on its own. I dint know we where building some knid of Robocop combined with Terminator. Every prototype aircraft will have ground technical support until its inducted in a operational squadron role. Until then there will be no operation procedures,manuvers,engagement call etc..set up by the IAF with ATC ground controllers of the IAF, other squadron etc.. For all intents and purposes I BELIEVE WHAT I SAW and the Tejas performed a multirole to the T while the SU-30 MKI failed in its mission profile during IRONFIST.

Well Everything else is in the open domain of the internet. We have pages of write up regarding this.
I also do not see any 'EVIDENCE' that the plane is flown by ground control and the pilot is just pulling some stick like some god damn truck. We are talking about a airplane here of which 12 different variation have already been manufactured.

If the plane cannot fly on its own

then what has it been doing up in the air for more than 2000 hours - plain foolish statement that.
If the system is being monitored from the ground more kudos to them .They are doing thier job. But doesn't really say anything here .
No country has enough technology to fly a advanced fighter like the Tejas from the ground. The arguement is just so much manure...

I can also write a article that says that the SU-30 MKI is till date being flown by ground tech input. It will matter nothing as long the evidence is provided.
Note: I will welcome any well nuanced critic backed by fact providing input on programs improvement. Mud slinging I abhor..

What really frustrates me is that the aircraft is not yet in service and already people seem to have so called full know how of its operational profile and so called faults.As mentioned earlier I STILL DO NOT see even a single authentic source put weight behind magical figure of 100 technical faults. THe figure first cropped up from what I am aware in the CNN-IBN article quoting an unnamed Expert who in turn was talking about a unnamed Official. Now this will be benchmark for all future tejas articles. We will suddenly start seeing like this article that 100 technical fault data bandied about. Anyone knows where it orginated by then??? no right.... Nice game of shadow and mirrors.
An engine defeciency in LEH every one knows about. Nobody is trying to hide faults of the Tejas as well. Least of all the airforce. The media is just gleefully ready to accept even a hint of a scandal.
CERTAIN PEOPLE seem to be ready to cast slur on the program easily enough without any evidence but want those defending it reasonably to provide facts to support thier arguements. Nice Logic.
But manufactured articles with no facts in them but reguirating old data to malign the project again seems to be just plain pathetic.

 

[pmaitra]

The whole article is related to Tejas.



Except for Point #6, all his other points are wrong. I have merely stopped replying to his posts. But when it's wrong, it is simply wrong.

The reason I will not stop replying to your posts, however, is because, I see you posting wrong and misleading information, and confusing people most of the times.

 

[vram]

China invested around 100 million dollars on J-10. First flight in 98 and FOC around 2004/2005. Engine is another ballpark entirely.

Extremely enlightening snipet on the J-10 fighter from the below book my friend.

Deception - Charles Robinson Smith - Google Books

I doesn't cost much to copy does it???

Designs of the shelved LAVI fighter program ,,, internal electronics copied from the f-16's 'loaned' by the Pakis...air to air missile a copy of the Israeli Python...LOL dude is there anything orginal in that thing...

 

[p2prada]

IOC-1 was achieved - Fact.

Fake IOC. It was simply a silly function. The REAL IOC is yet to be achieved.

IOC-2 - Will be given after testing of LSP-8 which has already flown and PV-1 ready - FACT again.

This is the REAL IOC. Yet to be given. So wait for it.

THE SU-30 the MIG 29 and the Mirage where all given clearance for importing without demonstrating BVR capability in the IAF.

Nonsense.

BUT strangely enough this is one of the Parameters for IOC itself in LCA tejas. But that is a arguement for another day.

:faceplam:

BVR isn't part of IOC. BVR is part of FOC.

Why is it that I always have to discuss with people who don't know shit?

The cost- Again fact but nobody considers the inflation when talking about escalations. 1 billion in todays cost is damn cheap for a fighter program. No country came come near this cost for a new fighter jet design from the basic drawing board phase.Not to mention the contribution for growth to India aero Industry.We already had the discussion on 1983 figure I and stick to my points.

More nonsense. Gripen was developed with just $2.5 Billion including engines. Tejas will top $3Billion without engine costs included.

The radar is the Elta-2032M hybrid MMR with the processor being the main isreali contribution. THis information is out there from 2010. Dont know what the journo means by no reliable radar. The Tejas is expected to Fire BVR's this year. Impossible without a radar.The fighter radar is expected to be locked on the target and provide a beacon for the BVR launch.

Reliability is different from capability. He is right when he says we don't yet have a reliable radar. But we have to start somewhere. So, in a way the author is both right and wrong.

This is a complete LIE. Every one who was flowing the program knows that the grounding was due to the canopy Hieght issue. The writer has confused the NAVAL LCA 's landing gear issue with this program to try and include more ammo for his smear campaign. The extent of stupidity is breathtaking

Sometimes even more experienced authors get some facts wrong. Even experts go wrong somewhere.

Also, no. Both Naval and AF versions have overweight landing carriages. This is a fact. EADS is fixing both for us. AF version's carriage is overweight by 500Kg, Naval version is overweight by 1500Kg, IIRC.

Oh for heavens sake.. what does he mean fly on its own. I dint know we where building some knid of Robocop combined with Terminator. Every prototype aircraft will have ground technical support until its inducted in a operational squadron role. Until then there will be no operation procedures,manuvers,engagement call etc..set up by the IAF with ATC ground controllers of the IAF, other squadron etc.. For all intents and purposes I BELIEVE WHAT I SAW and the Tejas performed a multirole to the T while the SU-30 MKI failed in its mission profile during IRONFIST.

So you say this and you also claim IOC-1 was achieved. Oxymoron, anyone.

IOC removes the ground support. LCA is still flying with ground support. Hence LCA is yet to achieve IOC. Hence IOC-1 was a farce. Simple, isn't it?

I also do not see any 'EVIDENCE' that the plane is flown by ground control and the pilot is just pulling some stick like some god damn truck.

Oh, God, you have no idea what the author is talking about, don't you?

Flown from the ground.
Learn some facts and then we will discuss.

I can also write a article that says that the SU-30 MKI is till date being flown by ground tech input. It will matter nothing as long the evidence is provided.

Since you have no idea what the author is talking about, just shut up.

CERTAIN PEOPLE seem to be ready to cast slur on the program easily enough without any evidence but want those defending it reasonably to provide facts to support thier arguements. Nice Logic.
But manufactured articles with no facts in them but reguirating old data to malign the project again seems to be just plain pathetic.

You are the kind of people who bring the country down.

The overconfident, arrogant, ignorant types.

 

[p2prada]

The reason I will not stop replying to your posts, however, is because, I see you posting wrong and misleading information, and confusing people most of the times.

Just STFU and learn some facts before farting. I have had enough of reading your annoying posts, especially when you don't know even the basics of an aircraft.

Wrong, misleading and confusing people most of the times, eh? Wow, you need to know real truth and real facts before you actually "ASSUME" I am misleading here.

Satan, where do these people come from?

 

[gokussj9]

@p2prada


1. What does the author mean when he states that ground support is needed for Tejas flight?

2. How good is the Tejas radar as compared to the ones in Mig 29 UPG, Kopyo in Bison and Zhuk in MKI?

3. Could you elaborate more on landing carriage being overweight issue. I have not yet seen this issue discussed
anywhere in detail.

 

[pmaitra]

Just STFU and learn some facts before farting. I have had enough of reading your annoying posts, especially when you don't know even the basics of an aircraft.

Wrong, misleading and confusing people most of the times, eh? Wow, you need to know real truth and real facts before you actually "ASSUME" I am misleading here.

Satan, where do these people come from?

Ok, perhaps that was an overstatement. Sure, most of the things you write is not wrong, except that they are irrelevant. For example, the question HAL investing money in R&D, and where it goes. Just go back and read what you wrote there? All fart and no shit.

Confuse, obfuscate, and complicate - that is your way of arguing.

You would still be innocent if you did things out of ignorance, but apparently, you are more into deliberate twisting of facts, and deliberate comprehension disability.

 

[gokussj9]

Extremely enlightening snipet on the J-10 fighter from the below book my friend.

Deception - Charles Robinson Smith - Google Books

I doesn't cost much to copy does it???

Designs of the shelved LAVI fighter program ,,, internal electronics copied from the f-16's 'loaned' by the Pakis...air to air missile a copy of the Israeli Python...LOL dude is there anything orginal in that thing...

Even if they have copied, the aircraft is up and flying with 220+ already inducted in the PLAAF. Go to pee-dee-eff and listen to Paki's saying that Tejas has been copied from Mirage-2K. Some inputs might have been taken, but a copy to copy in a Makkhee to Makkhee style, I am not so sure. If we can design a 4th gen aircraft, why can't the Chinese with a much bigger economy and research budget. A lot of students come to US from China funded by their govt and when they go back, they contribute to their R&D unlike the case of India where govt does not give a damn. Why so much disdain for the Chinese capabilities?

internal electronics copied from the f-16's 'loaned' by the Pakis

AFAIK, US has its staff at the F-16 airbase in Pakistan so that Chinese cannot tamper with the technology.

http://tribune.com.pk/story/249874/...-flew-in-with-guaranteed-us-presence-at-base/

air to air missile a copy of the Israeli Python

Some proof for the same would help.

 

[pmaitra]

@p2prada


1. What does the author mean when he states that ground support is needed for Tejas flight?

2. How good is the Tejas radar as compared to the ones in Mig 29 UPG, Kopyo in Bison and Zhuk in MKI?

3. Could you elaborate more on landing carriage being overweight issue. I have not yet seen this issue discussed
anywhere in detail.

Not arguing on that. It is more about @p2prada calling others wrong when he himself spends most of his time writing unrelated and irrelevant BS in most of the discussions that he participates in.

 

[vram]

Fake IOC. It was simply a silly function. The REAL IOC is yet to be achieved.

OH great master I did not know that you are more qualified than the IAF and MOD put together in these matters. FACT IS IOC - 1 IS GIVEN COME OUT OF YOUR DELUSION AND FACE IT.
Why is that I alway end counter argueing with arrogant know it all pricks.

More nonsense. Gripen was developed with just $2.5 Billion including engines. Tejas will top $3Billion without engine costs included.

The powerplant would be the Volvo-Flygmotor RM12, a licensed-built derivative of the General Electric F404-400; engine development priorities were weight reduction and lowering component-count.

(Source of snippet WIKI)
So the engine had significant US input and licence build of already developed one...SO what cost??. Who looks the fool now??
And provide source for that 2.5 billion mark . Last I read its 3.5 billions plus additional unit cost..

Sometimes even more experienced authors get some facts wrong. Even experts go wrong somewhere.

Also, no. Both Naval and AF versions have overweight landing carriages. This is a fact. EADS is fixing both for us. AF version's carriage is overweight by 500Kg, Naval version is overweight by 1500Kg, IIRC.

I WILL NOT ACCEPT THIS GUY AS A EXPERT. If you go wrong in so many counts you are not a expert. thats just bullshit. he specifically gave a timeline and said the grounding at that time was due to landing issues. But that was PURE LIE as I have proved. Stop trying to hide a misleading information by overloading unwanted statistics. Back to your old tricks I see..And first of all you missed here as well is the USN and EADS both are working as a consultant for fixing defects regarding the landing gear in Naval LCA. Nobody is doing the work for you. Never heard of IAF version having a fault in landing . Provide source.

Oh, God, you have no idea what the author is talking about, don't you?

Flown from the ground.
Learn some facts and then we will discuss.

FOR god sake I just quoted what he has written not my words... telemetry data for components is used for every development program. the Flights are always adjusted depending on the telemetry feed back. Nothing new here.
are you blind??

Since you have no idea what the author is talking about, just shut up.

YES I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT THE AUTHOR IS GOING ON ABOUT. its all bullshit to me. Most other people here seem to be of the same view. Since you seem to have a direct line to the authors thought enlighten us oh mighty one....
OR are you too good to state facts. Whenever your arguement is nullified you completey disregard the whole point dont you....

You are the kind of people who bring the country down.

The overconfident, arrogant, ignorant types.

MY entire views where in no way overconfident. I have challenged each and every ascertion of his with a counter arguement. Why are you having indigestion??
I AM the KIND of person who tries to preserve what is left of this country from the like of you who have not ever encouraged nor will ever any indigenous endeavour.the White man's burden still rules your thoughts.
You call me Ignorant but I have never ever seen you presenting fact. Are we expected to take each and every arguements you make as pearly diamonds from god mouth never to be questioned...Provide one single source dude .....else stuff your crap elsewhere....

 

[vram]

Even if they have copied, the aircraft is up and flying with 220+ already inducted in the PLAAF. Go to pee-dee-eff and listen to Paki's saying that Tejas has been copied from Mirage-2K. Some inputs might have been taken, but a copy to copy in a Makkhee to Makkhee style, I am not so sure. If we can design a 4th gen aircraft, why can't the Chinese with a much bigger economy and research budget. A lot of students come to US from China funded by their govt and when they go back, they contribute to their R&D unlike the case of India where govt does not give a damn. Why so much disdain for the Chinese capabilities?
.

The same Question can be reversed as well. Why the disdain for INDIAN R& D. I admire the chinese quality of singlemindedly working towards thier goal of improving thier country and becoming number one in the world. Bloody hardworking and disciplined people.
But do not asign them god like capabilities. saying the J-10 just cost 100 million $ is bullshit when most of the supportive work and building blocks for the aircraft components where already bought by them.Nothing wrong in that really.
THe American copied from the German from WW 2 nothing wrong there....they accept it ....But dont have false pride unlike in this case.
I appreciate Chinese capability but India is also attempting to achieve the same with many dedicated people involved here. Ridiculing that with such kind of bullshit articles is demeaning