Ajai Shukla : Where Is India's Light Fighter?

[Armand2REP]

You are not saying that all their new toys still running on russian engines, right?:shocked:

There are plenty of pics of WS 10 on their new fighters...

Or videos for that sake.

Who are you trying to fool? It is clearly the PT-05 prototype. Isn't hardly an operational fighter.

 

[ice berg]

So, Iceberg, what is the story on the J-10s? Is it replacing the J-7s and J-8s in PLAAF? Is it a strike fighter or an interceptor?

Not on 1 to 1 basis. But most of the J-7s or J-8s are either retired or moved to second line defence. It was meant as multirole, i think.

 

[p2prada]

Actually I speak as a R&D scientist. Just as you mention there are "aceeptable risks" and unacceptable siks", there is also the concept of "strategic decisions" vs "Tactical decisions". Although in case of IAF, none of them make sense.
You have LCA, which may not be the greatest bird flying, but which has a better safety record than the Mig-21s.
Mig-21s in IAF have recorded 116 crashes in the last 20 years, which means a crash ever two months on average or every 20 flight hours.
The last time the Mi-21 saw action was in the Atlantique incident when it shot down a fleeing recon aircraft from PN. In return PA stingers brought down two Mig-21s between 1997 and 1999.
Consider that against 81 dead pilots in 20 years, 116 fighters lost and hundreds of mmillions of dollars spent in upgrading, maintaining the Mig-21 fleet and tell me how the induction of the LCA will be ANY worse than that? I can bet my pants that the LCA will perform better than the Mig-21 even today.

You are going to lose your pants. Mig-21s conforms to requirements LCA does not. If you have an option between an Armani shirt and some China made maal. It turns out the Armani is 2 inches shorter, which would you choose next? Of course the China made shirt. Or would you wear the Armani and look like a Bafoon.

The strategic decision of inducting the LCA mk1 and keeping it in service will be invaluable knowledge and intelligence that you can ONLY get when you have something operational. In R&D we see that every time. The best design, the dest manufacturing practices still throw up nasty surprises and our learning processes have to accomodate for them. the longer IAF keeps the LCA away from service by stringent requirements, the longer they are delaying it's development, the longer they are delaying IAFs self reliance.

This is happening. 20 will be operational eventually.

Instead of basing their faith on the crappy 40+ years old Mig-21s, they should put some faith in the LCA.

Give an American commander a newly inducted F-22 and an old F-15s. The F-15 would get the most important mission. Why? Because it is proven.

Pilots lives are being lost anyway, but we are gaining NOTHING in return. Maybe a few LCAs will crash, maybe a few pilots will die, but again, the losses will be MUCH less than the Mig-21 losses and as Ray had mentioned a 3% loss rate is acceptable. In return we learn a LOT and help develop our own aviation industry/ IAF self reliance.

You are the one comparing crash rates. I am not. Heck I am saying in my fictional scenario, LCA will never crash at all. Forget 3%, it will be 0%. But it is two inches smaller than what the IAF needs to wear. They want the Armani, but they are not getting it.

FYI, Russian aircraft technology was mostly developed during the harsh era of Stalin. Losses of any amount were acceptable, as long as the goals were achieved. It's on the back of those sacrifices, that the Russian companies do business in India. And here we are talking about WHAT IF the LCA crashes - heck the Mig-21s are crashing every few months. Even the MKI has crashed.

As I said before, IAF is stuck in the mindset that "losses from imported stuff is OK, losses from homemade stuff is not."

Sad ....

The problem is you are not able to understand the fact that the LCA as is today, cannot see service in any respectable air force, let alone India.

 

[p2prada]

You are not saying that all their new toys still running on russian engines, right?:shocked:

There are plenty of pics of WS 10 on their new fighters...

Or videos for that sake.

I actually have some respect for the stuff China has made in these past 3 years. It is just that the WS-10 has not yet been seen operational. Perhaps it is, but most probably it is not.

The LCA may see the kaveri on prototypes in a year or two. Will that mean the Kaveri is a successful program, I think not.

 

[Godless-Kafir]

I think the biggest issue with LCA is the AoA? What other problems does it have, the bombing runs in goa where successful if i am not mistaken.

I think the Compound canard should be made like on the PAK-FA some what moveable.

Other wise the LCA is a great aircraft like the article says "Quantity has its own quality".

 

[pankaj nema]

For all the LCA critics I would say that FROM 2001 to 2010 there was Absolutely NO interest amongst the
people in LCA

In 2001 the LCA protype flew for the first time

In April 2010 LSP 3 first flew with a Radar and it was like the end of a long journey

Since April 2010 people have been HOUNDING DRDO for the LCA

So my dear countrymen let us show some more patience

LCA will definitely succeed there is no doubt about it

 

[SPIEZ]

For all the LCA critics I would say that FROM 2001 to 2010 there was Absolutely NO interest amongst the
people in LCA

In 2001 the LCA protype flew for the first time

In April 2010 LSP 3 first flew with a Radar and it was like the end of a long journey

Since April 2010 people have been HOUNDING DRDO for the LCA

So my dear countrymen let us show some more patience

LCA will definitely succeed there is no doubt about it

'

I think the question every one is asking that what wil, we do with the LCA ?

By the time it does come out it will be out-dated.

My question why not go into a joint venture with a any other aircraft manufacturer for the LCA ?

 

[Godless-Kafir]

'

I think the question every one is asking that what wil, we do with the LCA ?

By the time it does come out it will be out-dated.

My question why not go into a joint venture with a any other aircraft manufacturer for the LCA ?

No it wont be outdated more than the EF-2000 let alone the J-10 and JF-17. With rafael comeing in we will have newer technologies being inducted into the LCA.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

'

I think the question every one is asking that what wil, we do with the LCA ?

By the time it does come out it will be out-dated.

My question why not go into a joint venture with a any other aircraft manufacturer for the LCA ?

Nothing goes outdated, Once induced it goes on upgrading, Its not like we inducted a machine and it will be remain in that genration..

For example, Look at MIG-21 in 60s and compare it with today`s Bison in IAF..


Also, IAF is increasing it squadron limits, LCA is a multi-role fighter, It have its own place in IAF being smaller and most economical low maintenance and flying cost fighter..

 

[ice berg]

I actually have some respect for the stuff China has made in these past 3 years. It is just that the WS-10 has not yet been seen operational. Perhaps it is, but most probably it is not.

The LCA may see the kaveri on prototypes in a year or two. Will that mean the Kaveri is a successful program, I think not.

We will just have to disagree on this one. I for one have seen lots pictures in various forums to confirm that WS-10 are in mass production. I dont know how successful the LCA program is until India starts the mass production.

 

[gogbot]

Can you please take out all the European aircraft from the IAF's inventory and tell me what we have left?

Hmm... Dhruv and LCH
Considering we would have jack shit left , Still think LCA is waste of time then.
We need a working LCA one that meets the requirements or one that has a technology map to meet them. I honeslty can't see why the IAF would say we don't want the LCA if it met requirements they set out.

I have no issues even if you did. You see, if I start praising American weapons, then I will have a neat little NRI fan club behind me. If I start praising French weapons then Armand will have no need to be in this forum. If I start praising Indian weapons with a complete disregard for logical thinking then I will have a massive fan base here with probably 10000 likes for every post.

I have been called a kid, teenager, fanboy and a lot of other things which I have already forgotten. Why? Because I am not a big fan of Indian weapons, which apparently never see service. I protect Indian purchases of Russians weapons which are actually good, unlike some members who don't see difference between good buys and bad buys as long as it's Russian. So, a little sarcasm does nothing to me.

Well i did make light of a discussion that i was not actively involved in.
I just wanted to make sure that i did not Unintentionally rub someone the wrong way.

Ray sir has repeatedly said IA buys weapons which fit roles and not simply because it is the best. If Russian weapons are really bad, then why are we buying them in the first place? As a matter of fact, Indian weapons are so good that the armed forces prefer Russian equivalents over the Indian products. So, where does that put us?

i have no notion that russian weapons are inferior.
I think our own ordinance factories are worthless gas bags, resulting in some of out kit having a bad rep in IA

but i will say you overvalue the russian kit and undervalue our own stuff.
you insist everything is "junk" , why ?

Honestly i don't know what you expect the defense labs to churn out.
But iyour lumping every piece of working kit that has superior models made by Europeans,
In with the stuff that we make that actually doesn't work as all being junk
I just can't take that seriously.

Europeans are glorified wannabe superpowers. Are we supposed to buy every claim they make? Rafale is good. EF too. But they market it as a F-35 beater. Do you wanna believe that? There are actually a lot of people who do believe that, luckily not on this forum. Heck EF is magically equivalent to the F-22 according to the British and will beat the PAKFA and J-20. Funny thing is I am yet to see them make a claim that their fighter can handle a 140:0 kill ratio, even if the exercise is scripted. But I guess they did manage a 4.5:1 in some DERA simulation. EF fanboys cite that stupid article to base this claim while Rafale fanboys stupidly bring in the 2% difference that was noted in the Dutch evaluation against F-35.

Your not fanboy, i didn't question your objectivity in that regard ,
But the way your compare the Tejas to the other aircraft , does not seem fair.

There are facts and there is propaganda , when it comes to critiquing the tejas
You mix in both for the argument. I don't you would be critical on bs written to make the tejas look worse than it is.

I get the message
Its not the worlds best plane. hey it might even be a one of the worst planes of the generation.
But there are deliverables here.
And as i understand it IAF wants to take advantage of a finished product that meets the ASR.

When I said repeatedly the Arjun isn't fit for induction, nobody wanted to believe. A bunch of foreigners came up with the same and now nobody has anything to say. You guys haven't even seen the stuff Ajai Shukla has written about the Arjun. All that disappeared in one night and replaced with the stories he writes now. But he is an honourable man.

Shukla's own words

All these posts were in reply to some BR members I don't want to name.

Anyway, a nice little post to remind you how the world works.

Hey man , I don't want to go off topic with Arjun.
but that entire episode , its messy business it really is.

Personally , i think in that one project the defense labs and IA were both being morons.
I get that the tank was not ready for a very long time I do. Defense labs dropped the ball on the deliverable.

But as i understand it, its been fit for induction for the last 3-4 years. the Competitive trials(its a joke that we needed to have competitive trials) pretty much prove they are of comparable capability to T-90.

The whole thing is a massive spat. Defense labs should have delivered on time. The Army should have put more thought into the design of the tank they wanted. every criticism raised has been design wise , not performance wise.
I get it, requirements no longer call for tank like the Arjun, we need a new smaller turret.
But who wanted a tank like the Arjun in the first place IA did.

In the end the IA eneded getting some 400 odd Arjuns. These are fit for service machines , that would have passed a similar GSQR as the T-90. Capability wise it should do anything it can. It has a different and perhaps even sub-optimal turret design. But that does not take away it capability to perform the same tasks as the T-90. At worst you can say its ability to do them as well as the T-90 is diminished.

Thats the difference between the Tejas and Arjun really. Arjun actually works and does so well.
As i understand it, Arjun meets all the requirements set forth by the Army for its current MBT. It can perform the same missions, some better and some worse.
Tejas does not meet requirements , can't even perform the same missions as the Mig-21. So when IAF behaves the way it does , i understand. They can't have a plane that can't do the job in their fleet. They want a finished tejas , they want a finished mature tejas.

But the army has been given a working tank , that met requirements and it does not want to make use of it. If anything what that highlights to me is the complete communication breakdown between the Defense labs and the IA.

 

[p2prada]

My problem with LCA isn't that it is junk. It's just that the defence industry is not able to deliver. IOC versions in reality are junk as compared to the finished version. Once the finished version shows up, it will be better than the Mig-21 and an equivalent of the Mirage-2000 and F-16. But that finished version is going to show up only after IAF has inducted the more capable PAKFA and Rafale. That's what is disappointing.

LCA will be inducted only because there is no other aircraft competing for it's place in the IAF.

 

[SPIEZ]

Seriously I have had enough of this.

P2P supports Russian, trashes LCA. Patriots praise the LCA. Armand praises the French, trashes everything else.

Practically another thread going no where Let's just wait and watch the developments in LCA and the JF17. If only the Chinese were sensible enough to bring something good about the JF17 instead of photoshops.

 

[Mad Indian]

Seriously I have had enough of this.

P2P supports Russian, trashes LCA. Patriots praise the LCA. Armand praises the French, trashes everything else.

Practically another thread going no where Let's just wait and watch the developments in LCA and the JF17. If only the Chinese were sensible enough to bring something good about the JF17 instead of photoshops.

Dont you get it they are sensible enough not to something about Blunder...