Small arms of India

shom

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FN-MAG is heavy compare to PKM and not suited for mobile Infantry squads..

PKM need special ammo not made in India, Only captured PKM and ammo is used in CT ..
Yeahh,, after the reply I was thinking of the same thing dada,, that FNMAG is pretty heavy,, more a MMG than a GPMG, and also didn't had the idea that PKM are not regularly used. Then there is a bit problem,,, don't you feel problem in such cases, what do you do when you feel there is a need of suppressive fire or cover fire in a mobile infantry??????
 

Kunal Biswas

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Use LMG ....

That is why one should also include drum Mag for INSAS LMG, When charging one can use the MAG and for suppressive fire there is a drum.. :)

Yeahh,, after the reply I was thinking of the same thing dada,, that FNMAG is pretty heavy,, more a MMG than a GPMG, and also didn't had the idea that PKM are not regularly used. Then there is a bit problem,,, don't you feel problem in such cases, what do you do when you feel there is a need of suppressive fire or cover fire in a mobile infantry??????
 
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Re: INSAS Rifle, LMG & Carbine

Good day sirs
I had read somewhere that after 26/11 NSG had ordered for MP5 due to political and beauruecratic pressure but,they were very much interested in MP7 which was for some unobvious reasons denied!!
Kindly enlighten me more on this topic
Cheers!
 

shom

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Re: INSAS Rifle, LMG & Carbine

Good day sirs
I had read somewhere that after 26/11 NSG had ordered for MP5 due to political and beauruecratic pressure but,they were very much interested in MP7 which was for some unobvious reasons denied!!
Kindly enlighten me more on this topic
Cheers!
MP5 is already in service with the NSG, and other Special Forces, and also with some Police forces like the Force one (Mumbai Police), SWAT ( Punjab Police).
Regarding MP7, it was discarded as the ammunition were also to be imported along with the gun, but in case of MP5 the ammunition is produced by our OFB. Brugger Thomson MP9 is imported for Mumbai Police and the Ghatak Platoon of Indian Army. I will post the details of all of them one by one. Keep on Visiting.
Sources:- Red tape delays weapon acquisition, forces obsolete guns on NSG gaurds : North, News - India Today
 

shom

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Brügger & Thomet MP9:-

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The Brügger & Thomet MP9 (Machine Pistol 9mm) is a machine pistol designed and manufactured by Brügger & Thomet of Switzerland. The MP9 is a selective-fire 9x19mm Parabellum caliber machine pistol. It uses 15, 20, 25, 30 round transparent polymer detachable box magazines. It has three safeties; ambidextrous safety / fire mode selector switch button (manual safety), trigger safety and drop safety.[9] The MP9 is a development of the Steyr TMP. Differences from the TMP include a stock that folds to the right side of the weapon, an integrated Picatinny rail, and a new trigger safety.
Mumbai Police, Delhi police, Punjab Police already has it whereas for Indian Army Ghatak Platoons 1568 to be delivered.

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Courtesy:- Wikipidia
 

Kunal Biswas

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@sayareakd Sir, Can you make out the sight on that MP-7 in Shom post... thnx !
 
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sayareakd

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shom

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MSMC (Modern Sub- Machine Gun Carbine):-

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The Modern Sub Machine Carbine / MSMC submachine gun with optional Israeli-made ITL MARS red dot sight installed on the Picatinny rail.

Characteristics

Caliber 5.56x30 MINSAS
Weight 2.98 kg empty
Length (stock closed/open) 500 / 700 mm
Barrel length 300 mm
Rate of fire ? rounds per minute
Magazine capacity 30 rounds

The Modern Sub Machine Carbine / MSMC submachine gun was born from the INSAS (Indian Small Arms System) program, which originally included three weapons - the 5.56mm INSAS assault rifle, the 5.56mm INSAS squad automatic / LMG, based on the rifle, and a compact carbine. The INSAS rifle and LMG are already in service with Indian armed forces, but the original INSAS carbine program faced several difficulties. As a result, it was decided to design a carbine around smaller round, based on the shortened 5.56mm cartridge. The new round appears to be of same concept that experimental American Colt MARS, as it has bottlenecked case 30mm long, loaded with light, pointed bullet with steel penetrator core. The bullet weight is 2.6 gram and muzzle velocity from 300mm carbine barrel is listed as 650 m/s, resulting in muzzle energy value of 550 Joules - similar to modern pistol cartridges. The cartridge, known as 5.56x30 MINSAS, offers effective range of about 200 to 300 meters, with good penetration against body armor. The early carbines for this round, known as MINSAS, were based on the INSAS rifle, lightened and scaled down for shortened round. The MSMC, however, derives from this by having more compact, pistol-type layout, which also offers better balance and better maneuverability, especially in confined spaces.
The Modern Sub Machine Carbine / MSMC submachine gun is intended for Indian Special Operation troops, but it also can make a good Personal Defense Weapon for vehicle and gun crews and other non-infantry personnel operating in combat zones. As of now (spring 2010), the Modern Sub Machine Carbine / MSMC submachine gun is in its final stages of T&E by Indian military.
The Modern Sub Machine Carbine / MSMC submachine gun is a gas operated weapon, utilizing rotary bolt locking and a gas piston, located above the barrel. The receiver appears to be made from sheet steel, with outer polymer housing with integral pistol grip. The magazines are inserted into the pistol grip. Buttstock is of telescoped type. Safety / fire mode selector is ambidextrous and conveniently located above the trigger. Standard iron sights are complemented by the Picatinny rail, which can host a wide array of additional day and night sighting equipment. Another unusual accessory for the Modern Sub Machine Carbine / MSMC submachine gun is the bayonet lug, which is located above the barrel, just in front of the receiver.
The Modern Sub Machine Carbine (MSMC) is an Indian submachine gun designed by the Armament Research and Development Establishment and manufactured by the Ordnance Factories Board.[2] It was developed for the Indian Army, based on previous experience from the INSAS family of firearms.[3] The gun is very lightweight and compact compared to other Indian-designed weapons. It is chambered for the 5.56×30mm MINSAS cartridge.[4]
The MSMC was designed after the Indian Army's disappointment with the progress of a carbine version of the INSAS rifle. A variant called Excalibur was developed, but did not meet the requirements. The MSMC was designed to rectify the shortcomings of the previous developments. Through various trials and improvements, the ARDE came out with a grip-feeding, Uzi-like design that shortened the length of the weapon, making it more suitable for CQC purposes. Later its ergonomics were improved, boosting its export potential. The weapon is said to be capable of penetrating bullet-proof jackets.[1] It was created as an off-shoot of the INSAS small arms program.
History :-
The MSMC originates from a project to develop a carbine weapon based on the INSAS rifle. An INSAS carbine did not materialize, however, as the powerful rounds used in the INSAS rifle created excessive recoil for the smaller carbine.[5] It was decided to develop a new lightweight carbine that can fit the requirement of various Indian security forces.[6] The first trial was held in June 2006,[7] another in late 2007 and finally one in January 2009.[3] The MSMC was showcased during the defense exhibition Defexpo 2010. The weapon underwent further trials between April and June 2010.[1] Among its major competitors is the IMI Tavor TAR-21,[6] which is in service with some Indian special forces units including the MARCOS and the Garud Commando Force.[8]
There had been numerous delays in testing the MSMC for Indian Army trials, mostly due to the unclear requirements needed.[9] The final version was provided to the Indian army for trials in August 2011 and the tests are supposed to last 7–8 months before induction into service.[10]
Design Details
Following design from machine pistols like the Uzi, the MSMC has a pistol grip which allows the user to fire it even with one hand. This allows the insertion of 30-round MSMC magazines on the pistol grip. It has a retractable buttstock and ambidextrous cocking levers on both sides of the MSMC,[5] alongside the fire selectors to suit individuals who prefer to fire the weapon from either the left or right shoulder located above the trigger.[5] It has a picatinny railing on the receiver to allow the installations of weapon sights like reflex and red dot sights with iron sights built into the railing.[5] The weapon fires in a gas operated mode, utilizing rotary bolt locking and a gas piston.[5]
Like the Uzi, the MSMC is made up of stamped sheet metal while having polymer housing.[5] An unusual element in the design is the placement of the bayonet lug, located above the barrel just at the front of the receiver.

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shom

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Re: INSAS Rifle, LMG & Carbine

ARDE Develops New Version of Modern Sub-Machine Carbine for Indian Army
The Armament Research and Development Establishment (ARDE) has developed the final version of the modern sub-machine carbine (MSMC) which will be used by the Indian Army. The carbine has been developed with the aid of ordnance factories and can be used in battlefield as well as for urban warfare.

According to ARDE, the MSMC will be given to the Armed Forces for trials in various terrains. Several tests will be carried out on this new carbine and its induction is likely in less than a year once the trials are deemed satisfactory. The gun can be used by Indian Army, Paramilitary Forces as well as Commandos.

As for the features of the MSMC, it will be a lightweight automatic gun with a small barrel. The MSMC can be fired from the hip or be shoulder-mounted and will assist close encounters. Unlike a rifle, it fires rapidly and is suitable for close quarter combats. The other technologies that have been incorporated in the MSMC include a unique semi bull-pump weapon feed system behind the trigger mechanism, noise-reduction technology and the integration of laser spot designator on MSMC for close quarter battle.

The MSMC programme has its origins in the Indian Small Arms System (INSAS) family, which was started in 1982 in a bid to build an indigenous small arms weapons system for India. By 1987, the ARDE had designed the Rifle, the Light Machine Gun (LMG) and the carbine which were all part of the INSAS family. However, the INSAS carbine was not up the mark since the ammunition was very powerful and it had higher sound, flash, and recoil effect. In 2002, INSAS carbine plan was shelved and the Indian Army devised a new set of General Staff Qualitative Requirements (GSQRs). The new prototype of the MSMC was created in 2006 and was put through various tests by the Indian Army. The first trial of the prototype was held in 2006 and the last one was in January 2009. The MSMC was to replace the Russian 9mm-caliber carbine by the Indian Army and paramilitary forces.

In the INSAS programme, the concept of a single ammunition system for all the three systems (rifle, light machine gun and carbine) was the problem and the 5.56 ammunition proved to be too heavy for the short range MSMC, giving a higher recoil and flash effect than was needed. ARDE later corrected that problem with a shorter length of the round, though of the same calibre. Since the soft-body armour made the erstwhile 9 mm carbine ineffective, the development of the 5.56 mm Modern Submachine Carbine (MSMC) and its ammunition was initiated. The aim was to defeat enemy soldiers protected with soft-body armour at a range of 200 metres. The ammunition for MSMC was of a conventional type with the bullet cylindro-ogival for better ballistics as compared to a 9 mm round. A steel insert has been introduced in the tip of the bullet to achieve better penetration power and it enhanced the ammunition performance to a level superior than that of its contemporaries. Other features incorporated earlier in the 5.56 mm MSMC include a pistol grip, which allows single-hand firing capability, magazine feeding through pistol grip, a retractable butt for better stability while firing, ambidextrous cocking, fire selector to suit left and right hand firers and a three-point sling for better carrying and maneuverability.
The ARDE comes under the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) and helps in designing and developing conventional armaments, basic and applied research, modelling, simulation and software development in the field of conventional armament and transfer of technology related works. ARDE has contributed significantly to defence programmes such as Indian Small Arms System (INSAS), Arjun MBT battle tank gun, Pinaka multi-barrel rocket launcher and Tejas LCA.

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Twinblade

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Re: INSAS Rifle, LMG & Carbine

I have mentioned this when i posted these photos..

Its in the thread few pages back..

=============================

The topic was discussed before >>

http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/indian-army/43826-insas-rifle-lmg-carbine-3.html
Considering that these 'improvements' came over a period of 20 years says a lot about the manufacturer. Compare the evolution of guns by FN, Insas can be called whose distant cousin.

FN-CAL

FN-FNC

and modern derivatives like Swedish AK-5C
[/IMG]

Not only does a stamped sheet metal gun made by FNC 15 years before first Insas was made have a better finish, the evolution of the receiver from stamped sheet to unibody polymer should be noted. I was reading in other thread why Insas carbine failed because the standard OFB Insas ammunition was 'too powerful' for the carbine. Insas ammunition weighing 64grain at 890m/s exit velocity is supposed to have a lower recoil than SS109 equivalent ammunition that OFB also produces. If the carbine had a high recoil with standard Insas ammunition, it will still have a high recoil with standard NATO ammunition. Clearly the fault doesn't lie with the ammo but with the design they have been trying to implement.
 

W.G.Ewald

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We should avoid discussion of console games and "virtual" weapons, don't you think?
 

shom

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Re: INSAS Rifle, LMG & Carbine

Considering that these 'improvements' came over a period of 20 years says a lot about the manufacturer. Compare the evolution of guns by FN, Insas can be called whose distant cousin.

FN-CAL

FN-FNC

and modern derivatives like Swedish AK-5C
[/IMG]

Not only does a stamped sheet metal gun made by FNC 15 years before first Insas was made have a better finish, the evolution of the receiver from stamped sheet to unibody polymer should be noted. I was reading in other thread why Insas carbine failed because the standard OFB Insas ammunition was 'too powerful' for the carbine. Insas ammunition weighing 64grain at 890m/s exit velocity is supposed to have a lower recoil than SS109 equivalent ammunition that OFB also produces. If the carbine had a high recoil with standard Insas ammunition, it will still have a high recoil with standard NATO ammunition. Clearly the fault doesn't lie with the ammo but with the design they have been trying to implement.
This is a thread for small arms, please avoid discussions on assault rifles. for Insas there is a thread start it there.
 

The Last Stand

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Re: INSAS Rifle, LMG & Carbine

This is a thread for small arms, please avoid discussions on assault rifles. for Insas there is a thread start it there.
Small arms definition:

Wikipedia said:
Small arms is a term used by armed forces to denote infantry weapons an individual soldier may carry. The description is usually limited to revolvers, pistols, submachine guns, carbines, assault rifles, battle rifles, sniper rifles, squad automatic weapons, light machine guns), and sometimes hand grenades. Shotguns, general-purpose machine guns, medium machine guns, and grenade launchers may be considered small arms or as support weapons, depending on the particular armed forces.

Small arms typically do not include infantry support weapons. In the U.S. military, small arms refer to handguns or other firearms less than 20 mm, and including heavy machine guns (typically .50 caliber or 12.7 mm in U.S. service). The NATO definition extends to "all crew-portable direct fire weapons of a caliber less than 50 mm and will include a secondary capability to defeat light armor and helicopters."
 

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