Russia Ukraine War 2022

Who will win this war?.


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couchPotato

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Russian T-72 cook off, and a crew on fire.. India should never use these T-72s in an offensive.. Strictly use these in defensive battles, where they are well protected by infantry.

I've seen comments similar to this before. So wanted to add my perspective. AFAIK all the eastern tanks sacrifice crew safety/comfort for cost and a low profile. With a tank like Abrams, the ammunition is stored in sealed compartments with blast doors. On a hit, the explosion is channeled away from the crew compartment. You need more space in the tank for this, which means heavier and bigger tanks.

Most of our bridges, air lift capabilities are made with the lighter tanks in mind. You can see reports about the army complaining about how big/heavy the Arjun is compared to what they're used too. Then there is the cost involved in replacing what amounts to lik 80-90% of our tank force. Finally, with our large population and low income, crew lives are not a priority.

If you're thinking about the T90s, they have similar configuration to the 72s with some upgrades. So the ammo cook off will happen in them as well.
 

Dark Sorrow

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Russian T-72 cook off, and a crew on fire.. India should never use these T-72s in an offensive.. Strictly use these in defensive battles, where they are well protected by infantry.

The T-90 introduced in 1992 is a relatively minor development of the T-72B.

Szulc, Tomasz (September 2012). "Nowe Czołgi Naszych Wschodnich Sąsiadów: T-90MS I Opłot-M". Nowa Technika Wojskowa (9): 12–24.
 

Optimistic Nihilist

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If anyone wants to fully know just how racist Ukraine is and to what extent white supremacy is tolerated, take a few minutes out of your time and read this. And next time some Western bootlicker tries to lie to you about, "OOOO, NAZIS ARE THERE IN RUSSIA AND OTHER COUNTRIES TOO!!", ask him to produce evidence equivalent to the information below.

There are a lot of comments made on social media, to whitewash and downplay the serious issue regarding a white supremacist movement in Ukraine. So, it becomes necessary to annihilate those talking points.

  1. How many deputies does Right Sector or other white supremacists have in the Ukrainian Rada?
Remarkably, people use this stance over and over on social media and in the press to justify that there is no white supremacy problem in Ukraine. To them, support & evidence and white supremacy ought to translate into votes and winning seats in the Ukrainian parliament.

If only it were as simple it is seems. It goes much much deeper, and the roots are deeply established.

The focus isn’t that there are just a few white supremacists that were elected to politics recently, but how since 2014 neo-Nazis were a vector for unsettling changes in socio-political structures and provided cover for wider acceptance of an overtly fascist ethno-nationalism within Ukrainian institutions, namely in education and in the military.

Roll back a few years, there were plenty that used their status as a volunteer fighter in Donbass (known as the Anti-Terrorism Operation — ATO) to get elected back in 2014. Practically all of them lost in the 2019 parliamentary elections.

This is the crucial aspect to carefully note. The background to the 2019 parliamentary elections was when Zelensky had been elected as president on a platform to bring peace to the country.

Here are some examples of the Donbass ATO unit members who become deputies:

  • Ex-commander Azov battalion: Andriy Biletsky (ex Verkhovna Rada deputy 2014- 2019), founder of the neo-Nazi Social-National Assembly;
  • Ex-commander Aidar battalion: Sergei Melnichuk (Ex-Rada deputy 2014-2019);
  • Ex- company commander, Aidar: Ihor Lapin (Ex- Rada deputy 2014-2019);
  • Ex- Dnipro Battalion commander: Yuriy Bereza
  • Ex-Aidar volunteer, helicopter pilot, Nadiya Savchenko — Ex-Rada deputy (2014-2018)
  • Ex-commander of Donbass battalion: Konstantin Grishin, former Rada deputy, (Self-Help party), alias – Semyon Semenchenko.
Only of one of the above was elected and represented a radical right party, the Radical Party of Oleh Lyashko, all of the others stood for mainstream political parties.

Notably, the leader of the Radical Party (RP) Oleh Lyashko did admit that members of his party murdered anti-Maidan leaders during the ‘revolution of dignity’ and extrajudicial murders of non-combatants in Torez in 2014.

Yet, all of the above Rada Deputies served in far right / neo-Nazi volunteer units. The very same white supremacist units were cited on multiple occasions in human right reports for “credible allegations of torture and other egregious abuses” + incommunicado detention & violence against civilians. Additionally, there are many others who fought in Donbass and also became Rada deputies.

Moreover, many of the neo-Nazi fringe groups successfully stood for election in 2014, reflecting a change in perception. However, 5 years later, the reality of what the white supremacists brought with them, (regular threats, conflict, language & cultural restrictions, corruption, crime) was no longer acceptable to the majority of ordinary voters.

The election result was the one-party majority, a novelty in Ukraine, for President Zelenskyy’s Servant of the People party with 254 seats.”

This is the crux of the matter, people wanted a change, people just did not want to vote for the neo-Nazi parties and their policies. The likes of Svoboda, led by Oleh Tyahnybok did get 2.15% and just the one seat in the Verkhovna Rada. Even Oleh Lyashko lost his seat in 2019.

During the last 8 years, a number of prominent white supremacist groups have made their mark on Ukrainian society.

The notorious Azov’s political wing, the National Corps headed by none other than the ex-Azov commander, Andrei Biletskiy, as well as Right Sector, and its armed Volunteer Ukrainian Corps (DUK) and UVA, along with Svoboda linked groups, (key Maidan participants), have been consistently and fiercely opposed to any sort of a peace settlement in Donbass.

Similarly, the ex-Rada deputies, who participated in the Donbass ATO, other neo-Nazis, have to date, largely enjoyed judicial impunity in the wake of committing crimes, given their official status and connections to military and nationalist units.

Electorally, the white supremacist parties may not be popular and get parliamentary seats, due to a wish for a change in politics, namely a peace settlement in Donbass, but also due to the various fractions, frictions and bickering between ultranationalists groups.

Obtaining a peace settlement was one of the main electoral promises made by Zelensky in 2019. Hence, the overwhelming election of Zelensky, across the board, with 73% of the votes, apparently due to widespread disenchantment with Petro Poroshenko’s policies.

Ever since the events in Maidan back in 2014, ultra-nationalists have latched themselves in various sectors, local politics, police, the security service (SBU) and military structures.

There are numerous examples of this over this 8-year period, too many to cite here, but just a couple examples provided to underscore the extent of the power and influence of ultra-nationalists in Ukraine, as well as highlight the cooperation between official bodies and far-right groups and outline some of the ties that ultra-nationalists have.

A suspect in the 2015 murder of the journalist Oles’ Buzina, an ultranationalist, ex-ATO volunteer (Kyiv-2), Andrey Medvedko, (ex-Svoboda Party, ex C-14) was voted in 2019 to the public council of the National Anti-Corruption Bureau of Ukraine (NABU). Medvedko was never put on trial.

Avowed neo-nazi, Azov deputy commander, Vadim Troyan, was appointed in 2014 by the Interior minister (MVD), Arsen Avakov, as police chief for Kyiv Oblast & later in 2016, promoted to 1st deputy chief of the new National Police.

It is the same MVD minister, Avakov, who helped to create the ATO volunteer battalions in 2014, but also backed Azov as well, and then integrated Azov into the National Guard structure.

This is the same Interior minister who said in 2014, “to promise the Russians anything, and then hang them after the victory”.

In 2018, C-14 was used as a vigilante group, signed a partnership with a local Kyiv Council and also the police to carry out patrols. This is the same group that got sponsorship from the Ministry of Youth & Sports, “under less $17,000 for a children’s camp.”

The same C-14 that carried out pogroms against Roma. The C-14 leader, Yevhen Yaras openly acknowledged working with the Ukrainian security service, (SBU).

Just when things couldn’t actually deteriorate regarding deeply unsavoury shenanigans at the highest levels, Zelensky appointed Oleksandr Poklad as the SBU’s counter-intelligence chief in 2021.

Poklad known as the ‘The Strangler’ is a decidedly shady character, typical of the post-Maidan scene, with links to organised crimes and involvement in extrajudicial killings.

March 2022, some everyday examples of white supremacists in power, as mayors of Ivano-Frankivsk, Konotop (article) or the city council of Ternopil with their huge banner of Bandera.

In fact, they don’t hide the fact that they revere Bandera and his ideology.

Over just half of all the funds allocated by the Ukrainian government for children’s and youth organisations in 2020 went to various neo-Nazi projects. All done primarily to foster and increase an already existing popularity for Bandera.

Now replicate these examples a thousand times over, across Ukraine over eight years to get a sense of the tip of the neo-Nazi iceberg.

Back in 2019, Zelensky tried to advocate for peace, but ended up appeasing the white supremacists and of late, progressively established himself more and more with individuals and groups, from those very same radical racist / extremists entities.

Ex-president Petro Poroshenko, likewise has used the racist leaders and groups during the 1st December 2021 demonstrations against Zelensky. Basically, a rent-a-mob those various political entities use to their advantage.

This exchange of mindsets isn’t surprising, given that Andriy Parubiy, the co-founder of Social Nationalist Party of Ukraine, was the on the party list for Poroshenko’s “European Solidarity Party”. An example of a white supremacist gaining some traction by extending into the ‘conventional’ political system.

Although the neo-Nazis as political parties are on the margins, they still have significant socio-political influence wider in society. For instance, the parades and massive torchlight rallies in Ukraine by various ultra-nationalists, approved by local authorities and local enforcement, reminiscent of the 1930’s torchlight processions.

Paradoxically, the Western press expressed anguish and anger when such a torchlight march took place in Charlottesville, USA. But in Ukraine, nothing of the sort is expressed by Western corporate MSM on the numerous marches in various Ukrainian cities.

Moreover, no concerted attempts were made by Brussels, Washington or the OSCE to effectively pressurise Zelensky to cut loose from using neo-Nazi units in the military, (first and foremost: Azov), nor were any efforts made to assist Zelensky in removing the racists out of official or elected positions.

2. There are just a handful of neo-Nazis / ultra-nationalists / extremists. Or, they’re only 0,005% of the military.

By solely mentioning ‘Azov’ as being teeming with Neo-Nazis, alleging that there are only about 900 to 1500 members, thus stating that is it a relatively small proportion compared to the total Ukrainian armed forces.

Thus, the Neo-Nazis and white supremacists is correspondingly insignificant. As if that was okay to start with.

“Ah but there are neo-Nazis in most militaries…” This type of comment misses the point completely.

Only Ukraine has tolerated whole units with Neo-Nazis or supporters of Bandera and allowed units to have Nazi-inspired insignia and flags. Only in Ukraine, is overt Neo-Nazi ideology permitted in the ranks. For the sake of fighting the ‘Muscovites’.

Yet, just Azov accounts for more than 1500 volunteers, up to double or triple that numbers, given the other battalions, as well as 2 regiments and other units across Ukraine. Add in the Right Sector’s units, conservatively estimated at around 10,000 volunteers.

Not included are also other white supremacist military units, Aidar, Donbass, nor the special police battalions, including Kharkiv, Dnipro, Kyiv-1, Kyiv-2 and a dozen other units. Then there are others such as the Carpathian Sich, OUN volunteers and foreign volunteer units.

Their odious ideology and zeal is matched with their outright hatred for Russians.

Some racists love to wear the Totenkopf, a symbol by the SS stormtroopers, who considered themselves to be the elite. These white supremacists are currently the spearhead in fighting Russian forces across Ukraine.

Recently, the French President, Emmanuel Macron claimed that Russia’s special operation to demilitarise and “de-Nazify” Ukraine is “not a fight against Nazism”. A prime example of the denial or attempt to ignore some deeply serious issues that are being constantly overlooked by Western politicians and MSM.

Evidently, he never got to read The Atlantic Council’s 2018 article Ukraine’s far-right problems or browsed through this photo essay.

The concept of ‘de-nazifying’ is probably totally lost on most people in the West. What should have been added was a reference to reclaiming nazi-era ideology and glorifying nationally a nazi-inspired supremacist.

Even Zelensky stated categorically that “this is a normal and cool thing.” Why would he need to say such things if it wasn’t to placate and please a certain part of Ukrainian society?

“There are indisputable heroes. Stepan Bandera is a hero for a certain part of Ukrainians, and this is a normal and cool thing. He was one of those who defended the freedom of Ukraine.” : Zelensky

(2019)

Ethno-nationalism in Ukraine has different strands, but all converge on reclaiming the ideology espoused by Ukrainian Nationalists (OUN) and Ukrainian Partisan Army (UPA) and their activities in the 1940’s.

Right Sector, OUN, C-14, National Corps foster and practice a cult principally centred on Stepan Bandera and Roman Shukhevych. The government is no exception either, along with the Rada as well in promoting, nurturing these WWII fascist leaders, in order to establish them as part of Ukrainian culture.

Bandera has been officially recognised as a national hero since 2010. Maidan was the catalyst in accelerating this process, more violently, more brutally on one hand and more insidiously by officials in education, culture and the military. Violent Neo-Nazi units that got patronage from Washington and Brussels.

A clear example of this influence happened in December 2021, when Zelensky appointed the Right Sector founder, Dmitro Yarosh, as advisor to the chief of the general staff of the Ukrainian armed forces.

More recently, in March 2022, Zelensky appointed the ex-Aidar commander, Maksym Marchenko, as the new head of the Odessa Administration.

White supremacists have been unable to regain a political foothold via the political parties, yet this doesn’t stop them from asserting their presence in society in general:

  • marches & demonstrations; (15,000 Ukraine nationalists march for divisive Bandera — USA Today)
  • disrupting council meetings & court proceedings; (BBC documentary 2018)
  • pogroms against Roma (Kyiv, Lviv);
  • attacked other protests & events (LGBT, environmentalists, International women’ s day marchers) as reported by HRW;
  • intimidation, blackmail and murders of opponents.
Their deeply unsavoury activities did raise alarm by human right and civic groups back in 2018. The concerns were about how the neo-Nazis “created an atmosphere of near total impunity that cannot but embolden these groups to commit more attacks“.

This deplorable situation has never been dealt with by authorities. Fast-forward five years, the reluctance was still there to even start tackling part of the problem. Rather than being seen as a liability, their presence is seen in some quarters as a necessary obligation.

Thus, the racists gained a firmer foothold, by the fact that they were the ones who went to the ATO, the ones willing to continue fighting in Donbass. Add in a perpetual fear that these groups could turn against the government or officials, as recently evidenced by the 1st of December 2021 protests, no official is willing to confront them.

This shows the extent of the influence and power that they can wield. For instance, Dmytro Yarosh, the founder of Right Sector publicly threatened Zelensky in an interview that he would hang from a tree.

Since 2018, a continuous effort has been made to legitimise Ukraine’s extremists, (i.e. 2018 — National Militia cooperation with the police, during the 2019 election).

Even though, groups linked to Azov, and both military wings of Right Sector are in fact illegal military groups, not officially part of the military or National Guard structure, it is telling how they are seen and valued at the highest levels of government.

1st December 2021 saw Zelenskiy in the Verkhovna Rada, giving the country’s highest state award, “Hero of Ukraine”, to the Right Sector unit commander, Dmitro Kotsyubailo.

The unit is part of the Right Sector’s Volunteer Ukrainian Corps (DUK), a stand-alone irregular military unit, part of Right Sector.

Right Sector units are predominantly manned by white supremacists and neo-nazis. An example is Dmitro Kotsyubailo himself as one of thousands of examples, (centre photo with statue of Bandera and Right Sector flags):

1648552868972.png


Dmitro Kotsyubailo’s unit has been given anti-tank missile systems. Likewise, an Azov unit in Kharkiv got given the same systems, as this tweet shows:

1648552900751.png


Here are the neo-Nazi units that get fast tracked training & access to NATO weaponry, as part of a total of $2.5 billion given by the U.S. alone to Ukraine. This isn’t indicative of a tolerance by Kyiv, but tacit acceptance of these units as well as the ideological stance that they have.

Not only Kyiv, but Washington, London, Paris, and Brussels. A modern-day revamping of Op Gladio style units to fight the Russian military now and Donbass units since 2014.

A broader perspective can be glimpse through these selected headlines:

  • For Ukraine’s Far Right, War With Russia Can Be an Opportunity (Haaretz 2022)
  • Preparing for War With Ukraine’s Fascist Defenders of Freedom (Foreign Policy 2014)
  • A Year After 1/6, Ukraine’s War Draws U.S. Far-Right to Fight Russia, Train for Violence at Home (Newsweek 2022)
Western politicians, corporate media, think tanks experts are blatantly ignoring these deeply unpleasant aspects in Ukraine.

However, given the widely circulated MSM articles that flagged up the racists in Ukraine, most media outlets and journalists are willingly glossing over these aspects as well as the accompanying violence and brutality against civilians for daring to oppose this Ukrainian ideology. All in the pursuit of fighting the Russian military.

It is fair to say that overtly racist elements provide a stream of volunteers for Azov, Right Sector, C-14, OUN, National Corps, and others, whose members have been integrated into the military, National Guard, police, security services & also in mainstream political parties.
 

Peter

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Insensitive and completely mad words by teenage putin asskissers on this forum is so cringy.Yes america is no saint,they are soft imperialists where as russia,china are hard imperialists.Ukrainian leadership is puppet and partially nazi,but ukraine people are fighting like lions with everything they have against KGB mafia bullies led by putin who want to subjugate them.Instead of applauding their courage and rooting for the underdog we have forumers wishing the mass bombing of innocent civilians and the crushing of a courageous nation.People think russia is some kind of heroic anti imperialist power.Infact they are big imperialists themselves,and simply lack power to go full empire.I am not talking about russian people,or culture or anything..i'm talking about the regime.American regime is also imperialists ,but soft imperialists.People on this forum who want a world where russian kgb mafia,CCP commies and iranian mullahs call the shots are just braindead.It would be a far far uglier world.USA is the best of the bad options.Our compulsion towards russia is arms trade,general admiration for russian people and the balancing of china.People advocating for india to go to bed with china and russia have lost their marbles.Galwan is already forgotten?Dont let your distaste for western wokeism and fear of christian missionary activity blind you to the basic reality - the western values of democracy and individual rights are better than anything the russians and chinese have.India will go towards those values,not by becoming us vassal but on its own terms.We will no be joining any alliance with any dictatorial regimes.Teenagers on this forum are too easy to manipulate and get fooled by staged putin interviews.

Many people think neo nazis are only in ukraine,actually many of the russian kgb gang are also neo nazis.The founder of wagner group(putin's mercenary group),Dmitry utkin is a open nazi with ss tattoos.Yet he is one of putin's main henchmen.Many of these slavic white supremacists in eastern europe have a weird fascination with hitler,the man who considered them subhuman.
This thread even though written by an anti russian still raises some interesting points on the internal mess in russian polity and the mafia state headed by putin and how they weakened their own army so it could never challenge the FSB.People got fooled by russian military image and heroism from ww2,probabaly even putin got fooled.Russia will still win this war,but at a horrible price.There is no reason to cheerlead this.Its lose lose for everyone except china.Europe loses its resource base,economy in trouble,ukraine decimated,russia squeezed,america may reap dividends in short term but has driven russia to chinese lap and made an irrevocable permanent enemy,the developing world will struggle with inflation and oil prices.2 brotherly peoples will now hate each other.All because of chauvanistic stupid political leaders in washington,kiev and moscow.Its a tragedy and all we can do is hope for minimal bloodshed and quick end which i know isn't going to happen.I hope the forumers stop the pathetic cheerleading of putin,its ok to berate zelensky - but see with both eyes.And mods should ban any member calling mass bombardment of civilians -its disgraceful and uncivilized.You people call yourselves the bringers of ' hindu renaissance'.Please bitch.
I never advocated mass bombing of innocent civilians but key military installations which may/may not involve civilian casualties. The rest of your long rant is unnecessary.
 

Peter

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That rant was literally:

View attachment 147691
Austerlitz thinks that US is a soft world power while Russia is a hard world power. That alone invalidates his rant. If anyone just looks up American carnage and pictures of burnt bodies in Iraq War Or the use of Agent Orange in the Vietnam War it would forever show how benevolent soft power America is.

One should not forget the contamination of American aid to India during the 60's food aid programme to sabotage us and reduce our population.

 

Optimistic Nihilist

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Austerlitz thinks that US is a soft world power while Russia is a hard world power. That alone invalidates his rant. If anyone just looks up American carnage and pictures of burnt bodies in Iraq War Or the use of Agent Orange Vietnam War it would forever show how benevolent soft power America is.

One should not forget the contamination of American aid to India during the 60's food aid programme to sabotage us and reduce our population.

FFS, The Great Satan is the country that has killed more foreign civilians than any other country in the world.

Soft Imperialism my ass.
 

asianobserve

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Are you blind, or are you purposely trying to be argumentative? Nowhere in the maps does it show Kharkiv as the richest or most progressive area.

The most advanced areas are Donetsk, Luhansk, Zaporizhia and Dniepropetrovsk.

And oh yeah, I'm supposed to trust the dementia-ridden octogenarian talking about "strategic failure for Moscow", the same guy who said, "Putin may surround Kiev, but he'll never gain the hearts of the Iranian people" and "1 US dollar is equal to 200 Rubles".

Try this Americunt propaganda elsewhere.
Most likely before the 2014 Russian invasion of Donbass.
 

GaudaNaresh

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Insensitive and completely mad words by teenage putin asskissers on this forum is so cringy.Yes america is no saint,they are soft imperialists where as russia,china are hard imperialists.
Proof please. cite history to see who is hard imperialist.

Instead of applauding their courage and rooting for the underdog we have forumers wishing the mass bombing of innocent civilians and the crushing of a courageous nation.
We are mostly brown people here, not white bootlickers. Hence we will root for ANYONE who wants to wipe out Nazis. I will happily cheerlead the Ayatollah, even as a proud Hindu, if the Ayatollah leads a jihad against Nazis. This is because i can chop off foreskin and recite surat al mustakeem to pass as muslim. I cannot do anything to pass as white.

People think russia is some kind of heroic anti imperialist power.Infact they are big imperialists themselves,and simply lack power to go full empire.I am not talking about russian people,or culture or anything..i'm talking about the regime.American regime is also imperialists ,but soft imperialists.
so soft imperialists kill more civilians in war than hard imperialists ?

People on this forum who want a world where russian kgb mafia,CCP commies and iranian mullahs call the shots are just braindead.It would be a far far uglier world.USA is the best of the bad options.
Thats called yankee cope. America is the biggest force of imperialism and genocide of the last 200 years. They utterly genocided their own continent sized country, far worse than Russia did theirs, despite Russia being far more poweful than the yankees. Take your yankee worship elsewhere.

the western values of democracy and individual rights are better than anything the russians and chinese have.
Those values are a sham. Our cultural values are far closer to China than the west. In China, the regime is the problem, in the west, the people are the problem, relative to us. That is why the likes of me are colonising the west, instead of absorbing into it.

Many people think neo nazis are only in ukraine,actually many of the russian kgb gang are also neo nazis.The founder of wagner group(putin's mercenary group),Dmitry utkin is a open nazi with ss tattoos.Yet he is one of putin's main henchmen.Many of these slavic white supremacists in eastern europe have a weird fascination with hitler,the man who considered them subhuman.
Difference is, the Nazis in Russia are not being handed out national accolades & havng streets named after them, nor are their nazi leaning military units being officially incorporated into the national military. Any nation that does that, deserves to have its sovereignty deleted. Simple.
 

arkos

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Russia received written proposals from Ukraine confirming its desire for a neutral and non-nuclear status - Medinsky. The Russian Defense Ministry will reduce military activity in the Kiev and Chernigov directions.

“Taking into account the principles discussed today, the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation, in order to increase mutual trust and create the necessary conditions for further negotiations... A decision was made to drastically reduce military activity in the Kiev and Chernigov directions.
We proceed from the fact that relevant key decisions will be made in Kyiv and conditions will have to be created for further normal work,” said Russian Deputy Defense Minister Alexander Fomin.

Pointers :
1) In Syria too, Russians including Putin) said they would reduce operation but instead intensified their operation.
2) Remains too be seen if Russians will give back entire Kherson region or not.
 

asianobserve

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You keep posting only Russian deaths,
Are we assume Ukrainians are like our neighbor Paki soldiers where 1 Ukranian soldier = 100 Russian soldiers, equipped with Iron man suits, strength from hulk and looks from Thor & they never ever ever die.
These are facts. Russia is losing a lot of commanders.

Russian generals are Gods compared to Ukrainian generals...
 

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