Pak-Russia talks on delivery of Su-35, Mi-35s underway: Russian Deputy FM

[Zarvan]

Was proven to be a hoax on Twitter when they directly contacted the Russian ambassador. Also defies common sense and is illogical on many practical levels.

Looks like Pakistan is stuck with the Jf-17 facing off against the Pak-fa in the near future.

No it doesn't only you Indians are in denial as for PAK-FA it isn't coming in next 10 years and by than both J-31 and J-20 will be ready

 

[Zarvan]

RD-93 deal is different, Pakistan can afford it and Russia could not disappoint India much with the RD-93 deal

but SU-35 is completely different, it's a system that India already bought (SU-30) and India will be really disappointed by this deal and how much fighters do you think Pakistan can afford ? Russia will not loose Pak-fa deal for few jets Pakistan will buy.

Neither Su-35 suits Pakistan airforce doctrine.

Well doctrine is changing Mr times change doctrine change

 

[bose]

No it doesn't only you Indians are in denial as for PAK-FA it isn't coming in next 10 years and by than both J-31 and J-20 will be ready

Bhai Jaan,

What will you do with SU-35 ?? Maan lethe hain ki Russia apko de dea...

You are unable to protect your own PAF personnel as we saw yesterday ...

Taliban sabh SU-35 ura ke le jaega ...

 

[punjab47]

This is just result of 10 years congress + 150 years of British helping indian muslims.

Su30 was good in 2004, this didn't exist then. We could have already had decent number of this plane..

Other side is, Russia Iran probably see this as not enough to rattle India, enough for pakistan to guard pipeline through mountains.

--
Could also be hype for Dec visit. Russia has big deals with Iran & Syria coming up doesn't need a 2 squadron deal that pisses off everyone. Afghanistan Iran hate pakistan just not as much as us.

 

[sorcerer]

^^

Doctrine can change...Time can change..BUt pakistan is not changing..its the same economically ruined hell hole depending on money from KSA, USA and China promoting terrorism and is unfortunately not in control of the terrorism export/domestic market


Logically..
USA sees pak as an Arms market without much frills..USA is still NOT done with pak.
China sees pak as an arms market and a demonstration agent which buys Chinese weapons using KSA money and USA dollars.
Russia wont sell it to pak..their officials have confirmed it.

Its a media play on which pak media and a few intl. media is ignoring the official statement by Russian officials and fanning the rumor for some kind of political nirvana and hit points.



The rumor stems from the diplomatic stances India is having with USA. India has had defense deals with USA before too..And India is having long term joint ventures with Russia on crucial techs.
India is simply getting what it wants from its good association with Nations(USA or Russia)..something pakistan cant afford.

pakistan is using rumors to show that Russia is distancing itself from India and is aligning with hollow pakistan. . as if statecraft is based on bitching and nerve twitch reactions...that too with Russia!!!


Seriously, pakistan..thats not how it works..but thats a fine example of how bitching works in the press!!

 

[salute]

No it doesn't only you Indians are in denial as for PAK-FA it isn't coming in next 10 years and by than both J-31 and J-20 will be ready

and what pakis gonna do with that even if its ready, is china giving you j 20 for free ???

 

[blue marlin]

The Pakistan Air Force (PAF) has discussed buying Su-35 'Flanker-E' fighter aircraft from Russia in potentially the largest defence deal between the two countries, but a final decision is yet to be made, a senior Pakistani government official has confirmed to IHS Jane's .

The official was responding to Russian media reports that Russian Deputy Foreign Minister Sergei Ryabkov had said talks were underway for an unspecified number of Su-35s, which follow a recent agreement to provide Mi-35M 'Hind E' attack helicopters to Islamabad.

While the official said "it's too early to say if a deal will conclude and the terms", the fact that discussions have taken place shows Russia's willingness to sell advanced hardware with Pakistan despite Moscow's longstanding ties with India.

The official said Pakistan's interest in the Su-35 was driven by the PAF's need for a twin-engine fighter "that can fly for a longer range than the JF-17 and penetrate more deeply into the enemy's territory". The PAF flies a mixed fleet of Lockheed Martin F-16s, Dassault Mirage-5s, Chinese-manufactured F-7s, and the JF-17 Thunder, which is jointly produced by China and Pakistan.

In November 2014 a senior Pakistani official told IHS Jane's that Pakistan was in discussions with China to buy 30 to 40 FC-31s - the export version of China's J-31 fifth-generation platform. At the time, the official told IHS Jane's that Pakistan was interested in the platform partly because it was fitted with two RD-93 Russian Klimov engines, which also powers the JF-17. PAF officials have also told IHS Jane's in the past that they have considered the purchase of up to 40 Chengdu J-10 fighters.

Pakistani official confirms Su-35 talks - IHS Jane's 360

 

[blue marlin]

and what pakis gonna do with that even if its ready, is china giving you j 20 for free ???

he has a valid point there. if pakistan hypothetically purchased the su-35 . what is india going to do? the rafale is something not worth talking about as there is disagreement of investing some of the contract value in india. the t-50 is late. the su-30mki wont cut it anymore as the su-35 it be superior. and the j31 is about 5-7 years away from export readiness. and it give problems to india.

 

[jackprince]

he has a valid point there. if pakistan hypothetically purchased the su-35 . what is india going to do? the rafale is something not worth talking about as there is disagreement of investing some of the contract value in india. the t-50 is late. the su-30mki wont cut it anymore as the su-35 it be superior. and the j31 is about 5-7 years away from export readiness. and it give problems to india.

Hmmmm... if Pakistan hypothetically purchases Su-35, India will have to cut almost all further defence purchases from Russia and it will move to western platforms. Even if Pakistan buys the planes, it will be at least 4-5 years before delivery is made and preparing SOP and creating doctrine will take at least another 2-3 years. So, India will not be in any immediate danger from PAF having Su-35s, even though whther those are superior platform to MKI is debatable. By that period India would have improved MKIs indegenoysly and with help of western tech. as most of them would be up for midlife upgrades anyway, even if Rafale is not inducted. Also, India has been operating the similar platforms to Su-35 for last 3 decades, so Sy-35 is not going to be a much greater shock to India than it could be to some other nations.

In short India wont be troubled as it will only have to change stance, when Russia will effectively lose a lot more than it gains.

Further, purchasing the planes will put Pakistan either more on debt or will make it cut more from development work, which is destabiliae it even more - which, if youvunaware, makes ys gleeful.

 

[blue marlin]

Hmmmm... if Pakistan hypothetically purchases Su-35, India will have to cut almost all further defence purchases from Russia and it will move to western platforms. Even if Pakistan buys the planes, it will be at least 4-5 years before delivery is made and preparing SOP and creating doctrine will take at least another 2-3 years. So, India will not be in any immediate danger from PAF having Su-35s, even though whther those are superior platform to MKI is debatable.

agreed it will 3-5 years for delivery if such a deal were to be concluded.

• russia still plays a large part in supplying equipment to india.
• india will be co producing helicopters
• india is still builing the su30-mki
• india is getting frigates made in the pipav ship yard (which is in russia)
• russia will respond to the p-75 submarine tender
• india still depends on russia for the pak-fa hal

jumping to the west as you call it will come with consequences.
firstly india will notice a huge jump in price in equipment, a good example of this is the mil-17 is $15 million whilst a uh-60 will cost 35+% ($22 million). this jump in price will reduce the number of equipment india will procure.

By that period India would have improved MKIs indegenoysly and with help of western tech. as most of them would be up for midlife upgrades anyway, even if Rafale is not inducted. Also, India has been operating the similar platforms to Su-35 for last 3 decades, so Sy-35 is not going to be a much greater shock to India than it could be to some other nations.

the mki contains western tech(french/isreali) i dont think the mki will be host to anymore western tech, true no ones the mki's or the su-35 capabilities, but if india thinks the mki is superior then why are there reports of india breaking defence ties with russia, if they have nothing to fear

 

[Nicky G]

Talking about these hypotheticals is meaningless, come December when Modi-Putin meet and huge deals are signed, all this talk of supply to Pakis will disappear.

All that India really needs to take from this is just another signal for indigenous production of hi-tech platforms.

Besides, if Russia is desperate and crazy enough to jeopardize the relationship and monetary benefits with India for a economically and politically precarious state who will only be able to pay for this with some line of credit, then its best for India to fasten the process of decoupling from such desperate people.

 

[TroubleMaker]

Bhai Jaan,

What will you do with SU-35 ?? Maan lethe hain ki Russia apko de dea...

You are unable to protect your own PAF personnel as we saw yesterday ...

Taliban sabh SU-35 ura ke le jaega ...

Sahi bola bhai......In next few years we will see terrorists flying JF17 & Su35(if they get it).

 

[bose]

Sahi bola bhai......In next few years we will see terrorists flying JF17 & Su35(if they get it).

Welcome to DFI !! Please introduce your self to all members if not done yet...

 

[jackprince]

agreed it will 3-5 years for delivery if such a deal were to be concluded.

• russia still plays a large part in supplying equipment to india.
• india will be co producing helicopters
• india is still builing the su30-mki
• india is getting frigates made in the pipav ship yard (which is in russia)
• russia will respond to the p-75 submarine tender

So who's got more to lose? Russia cannot replace India with a buyer of such measure and scale, when India, even if it has to shell out a bit more money which its economy certainly can afford, replace the supplier with whole of western nations, who may charge premium compared to russia but qualitywise sometimes are better than Russia. You had asked about a hypothetical situation, and I replied hypothetically. In practice, Russia is not going to deliver Su-35 to Pakistan.

• india still depends on russia for the pak-fa hal

And, India will get it since a contract has been drawn and signed.

jumping to the west as you call it will come with consequences.


firstly india will notice a huge jump in price in equipment, a good example of this is the mil-17 is $15 million whilst a uh-60 will cost 35+% ($22 million). this jump in price will reduce the number of equipment india will procure.

Every single decision in life comes with its own set of consequences -some good and some bad. Every. Single. Decision. So naturally such a huge decision would come with consequences too. However, how far the defence procurement will be constrained because of it is anybody's guess. In such a hypothetical situation where Russia is supplying high tech cutting edge equipment to our arch nemesis (hypothetically speaking, since Pakistan gotta have to get a bigger begging bowl for that), we are gonna spend more money buying more cutting edge tech from west, not less. Also, breaking away from Russia will actually make India to have a more favourable business environment with west, which means money would not be problem either. May be western govts. including USA will provide insentives to the businesses to start having offshore facilities in India rather than China? Hypothetically speaking of course.

the mki contains western tech(french/isreali) i dont think the mki will be host to anymore western tech,

I did not know that the west has stopped innovating their existing systems or improvising them or even inventing new ones? When was that decision made?

A man with an iota of knowledge would know that every weapon system is constantly evolving and improving. So there's always place for new western tech.

true no ones the mki's or the su-35 capabilities, but if india thinks the mki is superior then why are there reports of india breaking defence ties with russia, if they have nothing to fear

It is not about fear, but about policy and diplomatic relations. When the shop you are the biggest customer to, decides to sell to your enemy, you warn them that your business will go away. The shop sells them tea-spoons, you might choose to ignore. But the shop sells them a knife you will nit ignore, and you gotta teach them a lesson, since the simple message did not work. It doesn't matter whether you have a whole arsenal of swords to fight off the knife you enemy has gotten and butcher them. It is rather, you privilege as the biggest customer has been violated and you will no longer trust your supplier. Comprendo?

 

[Yumdoot]

For you know who.

http://nationalinterest.org/blog/th...pakistan-american-f-35s-india-13838?page=show

Coming Soon: Russian Su-35s to Pakistan and American F-35s to India?
It could happen. Here's how:
Dave Majumdar [2]
Sergei Ryabkov told state-owned Russian media outlet Sputnik on Sept. 9 [4].

Despite the fact that the two South Asian nations share linguistic, cultural, geographic and economic links—and are part of the same civilization—they have fought three full-scale wars over the past several decades. At the best of times, their relationship has been fraught with hostility and suspicion—and that probably won’t improve until the generation that lived through the 1947 partition of India passes on. As Australian defense analyst Brian Cloughley told Defense News [5]: “The Indians would be extremely upset, to the point of a major diplomatic rift.”

An Edge for Pakistan?:

Acquisition of the Su-35 would probably give Pakistan a marginal edge in terms of capability over India’s two-seat Su-30MKI if it is bought in numbers, but the newer Flanker model only offers modest improvements over its predecessor. Most of those could likely be retrofitted to the Indian Air Force (IAF) Flanker fleet. In fact, there are indications that Russia and India are discussing modernizing the IAF Su-30 fleet [6].

How Would India Respond?:

However, Russia’s move to supply India’s archenemy with advanced weapons could lead to the nascent South Asian giant turning further towards the United States and Europe. Indian prime minister Narendra Modi has already signaled his intention to purchase 36 Dassault Rafale multirole fighters off-the-shelf from France after the cancellation of the long-running Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) debacle. And there are some signs that a deal could be imminent. [7]

If Russia starts to sell weapons to Pakistan, that could mean that France and the Eurofighter consortium will be in a far better position for when India inevitably issues another tender to replace its dwindling and increasingly decrepit fleet of antiquated Soviet-built MiG-21s and MiG-23s. Moreover, the prospect of Su-35s in Pakistani hands could prompt the Indians to act with a sense of urgency as they watch their perceived advantages erode away.

Another possibility is that because India urgently needs to start recapitalizing its rapidly dwindling fighter inventory, they could opt to simply extend the Rafale buy to the original numbers envisioned for the MMRCA program. It would be an expensive proposition, but national security concerns might force India’s hand. In any case, the Rafale offers better technology and is probably a more effective aircraft overall than the Russian fighter.

Would India Purchase U.S. Jets in Response?:

There is also the prospect that India might move to buy fighter aircraft from the United States once it restarts the MMRCA program. The Lockheed Martin F-16IN and the Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet were both rejected last time around, but the United States does not have to offer the India a fourth-generation plane.

The United States could offer India participation on the Lockheed F-35 Joint Strike Fighter. Frankly, the United States has the wherewithal to offer India access to much better technology than Russia could ever hope to with the F-35 and follow-on projects. For India, the F-35 would kill two birds with one stone: access to advanced technology, and a trump card over Pakistan and China (in some respects). The only downside is that India would have to abide by U.S. restrictions on the aircraft--which it has traditionally resisted.

In fact, U.S. Defense Secretary Ash Carter—when he was still the undersecretary of defense for acquisition, technology and logistics had expressed his willingness to sell India the fifth-generation stealth fighter in response to a question I had posed to him during an event at the Carnegie Endowment in January 2011.

"There is nothing on our side, no principle which bars that on our side, Indian participation in the Joint Strike Fighter. Right now, they're focused on these aircraft (F-16IN and F/A-18E/F) which are top-of-the-line fourth-generation fighters," Carter had said at the time [8].

Only time will tell if Russia ends up selling advanced weapons to Pakistan and driving India into a closer relationship with Europe and the United States. But, if Russia sells Su-35s to Pakistan, there is a chance one might see F-35s wearing IAF colors one day in the not so distant future.

 

[pmaitra]

• india is getting frigates made in the pipav ship yard (which is in russia)

No. It is in Gujarat.

Link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pipavav_Shipyard

 

[salute]

he has a valid point there. if pakistan hypothetically purchased the su-35 . what is india going to do? the rafale is something not worth talking about as there is disagreement of investing some of the contract value in india. the t-50 is late. the su-30mki wont cut it anymore as the su-35 it be superior. and the j31 is about 5-7 years away from export readiness. and it give problems to india.

he is just bs,
pakis gonna buy su 35 and j 20 and j 31 and anything else,
how many of them pakis can afford,
see pakis defence budget and then talk about what problems india gonna get by pakis daydreams.

 

[Neo]

Daily News
Sep 19, 2015 Bilal Khan -
Why is Pakistan looking at the Su-35?

Pakistan reportedly confirms Su-35 talks with Russia

By Bilal Khan

19 September 2015

It has been an interesting month for Russian-Pakistani relations. On the heels of a successfully concluded sale of an initial batch of four Mi-35 attack helicopters to Pakistan, reports about possible aircraft sales to Pakistan, most notably the Yak-130 and Su-35, began emerging. While there is no doubt that Pakistan’s commercial defence ties with Russia have improved considerably in the past few years (e.g. the vital role the Russians are playing by providing the RD-93 turbofan for use on the JF-17), I maintained (and still do) that it is important to manage expectations. A sudden jump to acquiring the Su-35, arguably Russia’s most advanced combat fighter on offer to the international fighter market, should not presumed.

For some background on this issue. On September 9th 2015 the Deputy Foreign Minister of Russia, Sergei Ryabkov, reportedly said that Russia was in talks with Pakistan over the sale of the Sukhoi Su-35. Although only one media source reported it (albeit a fairly credible one, Sputnik International), I felt this was not enough to indicate that there was enough smoke to infer a fire. Turns out, there may be a bit of a fire after all. A senior Pakistani government official told IHS Jane’s 360 that the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) was in fact in talks with Russia over the sale of Su-35-Es, but noted that talks were in their very early stages.

This is, without doubt, very big news. Not only does this lend credence to the talk about Pakistan expressing interest in the Su-35, but it also spells out several other implications as well. The first is the obvious impact this deal would have on Russia’s relations with India, and would necessitate the question of why Russia is even humouring such talks with Pakistan. The second implication is the apparent shift this would cause within the PAF’s doctrine, which until now has been defensive in nature (emphasizing the need to deny enemy air superiority) and not catered for long-range missions.

How will Russia get this deal past India?

The Indian dimension deserves a few articles in its own right, especially given New Delhi’s longstanding all-weather ties with Moscow and the interdependence of these two powers in the realm of defence. Yes, India is Russia’s leading importer and partner, but Russia is also India’s leading vendor and – despite India’s indigenous efforts – a preferred supplier of cutting-edge arms. It would be disingenuous to argue that one could thrive without the other. Russia needs India’s money and India needs Russia to competently equip, service and upgrade a significant proportion (if not majority) of its critical military equipment. I wonder if Russia is banking on this fact as a means to negate whatever pressure India plans to exert against a possible Su-35 sale that is apparently in the making between Moscow and Islamabad.

Why is Russia looking to conduct business with Pakistan?

Another, and increasingly cited, angle is that of Russia’s own geostrategic objectives, such as this article by former Indian ambassador to Uzbekistan and Turkey M.K. Bhadrakumar. In his piece Bhadrakumar argued that Russia and China could “coordinate their regional policies and the two big powers could be moving in tandem to strengthen Pakistan’s ‘strategic autonomy.’” According to Bhadrakumar this would be done through a mix of heavy economic investments as well as liberal access to advanced arms, thus gradually pulling Pakistan away from the heavy foreign relations influence of the U.S.

Personally, I would caution observers from adopting this point. Yes, there is an incentive for China and Russia to see a policy independent Pakistan capable of and willing to stand for its own interests in opposition to the U.S. However, Russia and China are not expansionary world powers looking to out-influence the U.S in other countries. China is Pakistan’s closest and most trusted defence partner, but that relationship has not translated into Pakistan taking an assertive stance against the U.S. on issues such as Afghanistan. That will depend on Pakistan itself and the capacity (as well as willingness) of its key decision-makers to consciously pull away from Washington. Investment from China and trade from Russia could help those decision-makers (and their ability to maintain an independent foreign policy), but those decision-makers actually need to exist in the first place, they will not come as a result of China and Russia’s efforts.

In the end the simplest explanation could be the most likely one, i.e. the fact that Russia may just be looking for another big market for its high-value goods. Yes a lot has and will be said about the capacity of the Pakistani economy to meet that expectation, but there may be some hope on the part of Russian exporters that Pakistan’s medium-to-long-term prospects will improve substantially in tandem with China’s massive infrastructure investments. It is unlikely that Pakistan would pay in hard cold cash, thus a financing plan (which Russia does provide) will likely be requested, so it will be interesting to see Russia’s terms (assuming talks reach an advanced enough stage).

Why is the PAF pursuing the Su-35?

This is an important question. The entirety of the PAF’s fighter fleet is currently composed of light and medium-weight single engine fighters. In fact, never in its history did the PAF operate a heavy twin-engine long-range combat platform akin to the Su-35 (or its major Western counterparts, e.g. the F-15E Strike Eagle). While the PAF does possess some offensive capabilities in its inventory, e.g. the 350km-range Ra’ad air-launched cruise missile (ALCM), it does not operate full out offensive platforms that are capable of carrying hefty payloads across long distances.

Here is a brief comparison of the JF-17’s physical performance parameters (e.g. range and payload) to that of the Su-35 (taken from one of my previous pieces):

The Su-35 possesses considerable range and payload, especially when compared to the up and coming PAF mainstay, the JF-17. For example, the ferry range of the JF-17 is 3482km (link), the Su-35’s ferry range sits at 4200km (link). In terms of take-off weight the JF-17 and Su-35 run at 12,383kg (link) and 34,500kg (link), respectively.

It is clear from the above that the Su-35 would offer a significant range and payload improvement over the JF-17. The question is, why is the PAF looking to acquire this kind of power?

In terms of how a long-range twin-engine fighter would be valuable as a maritime and power projection asset, retired PAF Air Commodore and former PAF fighter pilot Kaiser Tufail said the following:

The Su-35 “being a twin-engined aircraft with vast range (and endurance), it would help us to have a significant and potent presence in the Arabian Sea, something that the puny, aging Mirage squadron is ill-suited for (as is the JF-17 from the range point of view),” he said. “Given the changing geo-politics and the Chinese investment whose trade terminus is Gwadar, there is definitely going to be a need for a long-range fighter. So essentially, I see it as a guarantor of maritime security as far as the airspace is concerned.

… “This has been a yawning gap in [the air force’s] capabilities. These fighters would also allow unhindered patrolling by the naval [long range maritime patrol aircraft], as well as providing top cover to our fleet at sea,” DefenseNews

In a similar vein, a senior Pakistani government official told Farhan Bokhari that the PAF was interested in building its capacity to engage in deep-strike missions:

The official said Pakistan’s interest in the Su-35 was driven by the PAF’s need for a twin-engine fighter “that can fly for a longer range than the JF-17 and penetrate more deeply into the enemy’s territory”. IHS Jane’s 360

Maritime and deep-strike missions are essentially the two primary reasons why the PAF would look at the Su-35, but it does not answer why there is a shift in doctrine. Why is the PAF concerned about strengthening its capacity to engage in maritime missions and why is it looking to build deep-strike fleet?

It is important to remember that Pakistan is not an expansionist power looking to assert itself in the affairs of other countries. One of the motivations behind a country’s desire to build power projection capabilities is the need to expand its domain of influence, but that is not something Pakistan would engage in. The real reason behind this sudden interest in the Su-35 (and possibly similar platforms) may be found within the Pakistani military’s doctrine of minimum deterrence.

In other words, it is possible that the necessary threshold of conventional capabilities required to maintain minimum deterrence against India has grown, and consequently, necessitates a platform such as the Su-35. A quick look at the Indian Navy and Indian Air Force’s significant modernization programs will lend to this point. There will be a time when Pakistani ports would have be safeguarded against multiple Indian aircraft carriers (and their carrier groups/support fleets). Even if the Pakistan Navy were to acquire a sizable number of multi-mission frigates and submarines, it would still need the support of the PAF to help protect its assets from enemy aircraft, and India’s naval air arm is fast becoming a critical threat.

In terms of building its deep-strike capabilities, it is possible that the PAF sees the advent of force multipliers such as in-flight refuelling aircraft as enablers for India to use its eastern territory as staging grounds for attacks on Pakistan. Platforms such as the Su-35 (especially when paired with ALCMs) can be seen as assets to help address that concern.

Managing Expectations

Perhaps the biggest takeaway from this news is the fact that the PAF is looking to procure a heavy twin-engine long-range fighter such as the Su-35. Whether it decides to or is able to acquire this fighter is another story, but this saga does lend a hint as to the PAF’s future acquisition plans. It will also be interesting to see how other vendors such as the Eurofighter Consortium or even Boeing (though I would not hold my breath) would respond to this apparent shift in the PAF’s thinking. In any case, we will find out in the months ahead.


http://quwa.org/2015/09/19/why-is-pakistan-looking-at-su-35/

 

[Zarvan]

Bhai Jaan,

What will you do with SU-35 ?? Maan lethe hain ki Russia apko de dea...

You are unable to protect your own PAF personnel as we saw yesterday ...

Taliban sabh SU-35 ura ke le jaega ...

We are fully capable of protecting we lost only 6 PAF and Army guys others were civilians or relatives and this is not a base no Air Craft and Jet is deployed here. Even Afghan Taliban managed to destroy several Jets in an attack on USA base a year ago. As for Jets you would know what we would do with them if you try to attack us

 

[Zarvan]

and what pakis gonna do with that even if its ready, is china giving you j 20 for free ???

We would buy them lot of them we have money now and more coming