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Whats your Choice for the MMRCA Contest?

  • Gripen

    Votes: 5 4.9%
  • F16 IN

    Votes: 1 1.0%
  • F18 SH

    Votes: 8 7.8%
  • Mig 35

    Votes: 24 23.3%
  • Dassault Rafale

    Votes: 45 43.7%
  • Eurofighter Typhoon

    Votes: 20 19.4%

  • Total voters
    103

Vladimir79

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How do you define air superiority in the era of BVR missiles ?
Airframe-wise, the Mig-35 is definitely miles ahead in A2A engagements, but do you think this advantage holds relevance in the era of AESA, and AIM-120Ds ?

The Mig might have an excellent OLS system, but would the engagement even reach the level of its requirement ?
Do you see fighters facing off one-on-one ?
One of the problems in a shooting war is civilian casualties. Sometimes you need to visually ID your targets before you should engage them. In this the MiG-35 is in the advantage. In a BVRAAM fight the aerocraft is going to be backed up by AWACs so it really doesn't matter the minor differences in a Super Bug AESA or a MiG-35 AESA when their radars are not going to go active to give away their positions. Super Bug might have AIM-120D in the near future but we have R-77M1 which out ranges it by several kilometres. As I said, the F-18 is a bomb truck more of a superiority fighter and that doesn't just include knife fights but BVRAAM as well. The MiG-35 is the best choice with missile loadout, OLS, and thrust vector to take on any 4++++ fighter. With the OLS it is even capable of taking on 5th generation trying to sneak across your borders. A good MiGCAP should prevent that.
 

p2prada

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One of the problems in a shooting war is civilian casualties. Sometimes you need to visually ID your targets before you should engage them. In this the MiG-35 is in the advantage.
True. I still remember the shooting down of the Iranian passenger jet Flight 665. Visual ID is a must after target is cued for any aerial engagement in the US. The Su-35 also carries an impressive OLS.

In a BVRAAM fight the aerocraft is going to be backed up by AWACs so it really doesn't matter the minor differences in a Super Bug AESA or a MiG-35 AESA when their radars are not going to go active to give away their positions. Super Bug might have AIM-120D in the near future but we have R-77M1 which out ranges it by several kilometres. As I said, the F-18 is a bomb truck more of a superiority fighter and that doesn't just include knife fights but BVRAAM as well. The MiG-35 is the best choice with missile loadout, OLS, and thrust vector to take on any 4++++ fighter. With the OLS it is even capable of taking on 5th generation trying to sneak across your borders. A good MiGCAP should prevent that.
More important than the range of the R-77M1 is the Ramjet propulsion. The speed itself provides more advantages than any AESA, be it AWACS or not.
 

pppppppp

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Other than the neighboring factor, what are the pitfalls of F-16?
I understand it has an old airframe. But I see more advantages of it, as it is easier to maintain and cost effective. All other aspects of MMRCA are present in it.
Where does this lose with F-18? (Leave out Naval role).
 

Vladimir79

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Other than the neighboring factor, what are the pitfalls of F-16?
I understand it has an old airframe. But I see more advantages of it, as it is easier to maintain and cost effective. All other aspects of MMRCA are present in it.
Where does this lose with F-18? (Leave out Naval role).
For one, they want a dual engine fighter for survivability. For two, they have changed their requirements for better strike performance, for three, it has a stronger frame as it was designed for carrier operations giving it more ruggedness.
 
J

John

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Other than the neighboring factor, what are the pitfalls of F-16?
I understand it has an old airframe. But I see more advantages of it, as it is easier to maintain and cost effective. All other aspects of MMRCA are present in it.
Where does this lose with F-18? (Leave out Naval role).
well the F-16 block 60 as such is a new airframe, the design is slightly different and the materials used for construction are also newer. We as of yet have no idea whether IAF prefers a single or twin engined jet and i am sure IAF doesn't know as well.

Some of the important things that the IAF will look for is AESA, passive targeting, meeting all role requirements, low life cycle costs, good BVR and WVR capabilities, weapons flexibility and volume of fire, net centricity, customization, future upgradability, integration of existing Israeli weapons, usefull ness for all 3 services i.e ability to be used for Army, Navy and Air force particular missions, which means the aircraft has to be a true all-rounder and must be able to pound targets in all regimes, night or day, in all weather conditions and most crucial high altitudes and way below 0 temps. Something easy to fly and maintain, excellent quality parts and spares till full assembly begins in India, source codes or at least the possibility to add to the existing library of threats on the chosen fighter's source codes. Taking into account price, need for further customization at the day of purchase and delivery time ASAP, well i would say the RAfale, SH and Mig could make it to the top 3 contenders. But the mig's AESA has been fully tested and is kinda similar to the Rafale's radar in terms of ranges but Rafale radar is better in the number of threats it can track. if indeed IAF has no issues with owning the F-16IN, well its also likely that its chosen as one of the top contenders. Also depends if IAF wants commonality in terms of engines for LCA and EF/SH.

If IAF indeed wants commonality, both the SH or EF will do just fine and either the GE 414 or EJ2000 will help LCA become a very deadly aircraft. Also lets not forget timing because considering that aircraft trails end april-2010 and price negotiations begin, we can expect decision by end 2010 and offcourse after decision some contenders will appeal against the decision, further delay of two or 3 months, the order will mostly come beginning 2011, assuming the by jan 2011 we place the order the company has to deliver ASAP because by the time the aircraft arrives end of 2013 or 2014, we'd have the lowest levels of fighters and if timing is as crucial as i think it is the company that can delivery the fastest among the top 3 will win and as of yet Boeing's SH line is 3 months ahead of schedule with possibility to deliver on time.

I still think SH remains the strongest in terms of abilities, sure its not as fast or agile as the others yet but the engine will make it a lot more flighty, best AESA, proven A2G and A2S roles, air to air it carries more missiles than the rest to be considered lethal on any given day and i pity the fool who underestimates it even in a dogfight, its a strong aircraft, bugs have been fixed and Aussies will get the first bug free version starting end 2010 ahead of schedule. Sure the others are better aerodynamic performers and no doubt about that but the SH's weapons flexibility, full functional roles, gr8 avionics and best net work abilities give it a dire advantage because even if we have to add to it, there isn't much we have to do except give it the new higher thrust engine which has already been ground tested and possibly a new EW suite which given open architecture can be our very own Mayavi.

We often forget that they have to work in teams and we have very good aircraft playing different roles, mig-29, lca will be our primary air defence aircraft any aerial intrusion will result in immediate scramble of the LCA which will be based at various bases close to border regions. LCA is ideal for visual ID, will be able to fire Russian, Indian and Israeli weapons. Either way, we know that the LCA will be the primary air defense and offense aircraft being small, fast and agile, they will have backing from the mig-29 which is ideal for point defense and will continue playing those roles like always, Jag ideal for AG, deep strikes, low level penetration, fighter support etc. while mirage gr8 for interdiction, CAP, fighter escort, TARCAP roles. mig-27ML again primary A2G, fighter support and ground attack. Su-30mki multirole, primary mission air superiority, key long range bombing missions or key target destruction, SH fits right in with its full scale multirole abilities whether its awacs, precision A2G, maritime strike or maritime defense, ground support or tanker roles, SH is designed for all possible roles a fighter can be used for which is a very powerful thing when they take it to trails. The others will have a hard time to match the things the SH can do in general. contrary to what others say stand off and precision weapons are important and SH is always among the first to receive new weapons.

Now team workers always have an advantage, given its radar, the maturity of roles and decent price SH will impress the entire military and not just the IAF. In modern business terms, a product is either fit or sexy, SH is sexy coz it stands out.
 

ZOOM

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One of the problems in a shooting war is civilian casualties. Sometimes you need to visually ID your targets before you should engage them. In this the MiG-35 is in the advantage. In a BVRAAM fight the aerocraft is going to be backed up by AWACs so it really doesn't matter the minor differences in a Super Bug AESA or a MiG-35 AESA when their radars are not going to go active to give away their positions. Super Bug might have AIM-120D in the near future but we have R-77M1 which out ranges it by several kilometres. As I said, the F-18 is a bomb truck more of a superiority fighter and that doesn't just include knife fights but BVRAAM as well. The MiG-35 is the best choice with missile loadout, OLS, and thrust vector to take on any 4++++ fighter. With the OLS it is even capable of taking on 5th generation trying to sneak across your borders. A good MiGCAP should prevent that.
Vlamdimir, so far I found all your commenting very informative. As you are hailing from defence background, I would like to know what could be the actual state of Current fleet of Mig-29s of IAF? Are they undergoing any upgrade?

At the same time, my personal view states that IAF is looking for new generation aircraft, Mig-29 in any of its form doesn't feat into it. Although I am not saying that it is not upto the mark, yes it can give most the 4th generation fighter jets in the world a run for their money. But as far as generation is concerned, don't you think IAF should rather get settled with Eurofighter, Rafale, SH or Gripen? rather then going for Mig-29 which has more or less similar features as MKI.
 

Vladimir79

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Vlamdimir, so far I found all your commenting very informative. As you are hailing from defence background, I would like to know what could be the actual state of Current fleet of Mig-29s of IAF? Are they undergoing any upgrade?
Off the top of my head, India has bought RD-33 production facility and ToT for level III engines. These are the clean ones with longer service life and don't have nasty exhaust. It was in response to spare problems suffered by export shortages of Rosboronexport. IAF is now self sufficient in engine production and maintenance. 78 aerocraft will receive a Zhuk-Me phased array radar for longer range BVRAAM. The Klimov engines have digital fuel injection, aerial refueling capability and modern LCD cockpit.

At the same time, my personal view states that IAF is looking for new generation aircraft, Mig-29 in any of its form doesn't feat into it. Although I am not saying that it is not upto the mark, yes it can give most the 4th generation fighter jets in the world a run for their money. But as far as generation is concerned, don't you think IAF should rather get settled with Eurofighter, Rafale, SH or Gripen? rather then going for Mig-29 which has more or less similar features as MKI.
MKI ranked better than Eurofighter... no problem with that plane.
 

ZOOM

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Off the top of my head, India has bought RD-33 production facility and ToT for level III engines. These are the clean ones with longer service life and don't have nasty exhaust. It was in response to spare problems suffered by export shortages of Rosboronexport. IAF is now self sufficient in engine production and maintenance. 78 aerocraft will receive a Zhuk-Me phased array radar for longer range BVRAAM. The Klimov engines have digital fuel injection, aerial refueling capability and modern LCD cockpit.
Thanks for valuable input.


MKI ranked better than Eurofighter... no problem with that plane.
Vladimir, you seems to have completely missed the point. I had asked your perspective about generation perception of IAF about current MRCA in which Mig-35 simply doesn't fit, because it is the fighter jet of late 80s. How makers of Mig-35 who have fielded Mig for MRCA will going to fight this generational feature which is somehow missing from Mig-35 and major advantage for Figther jets like EF, Rafale and Gripens because of their ongoing development.
 
J

John

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MKI did rank better than the EF in some aspects as maneuverability and close in dogfights but EF out classes the MKI in sheer agility and acceleration, EF is far more advanced in avionics, given a good TVC on the T-3 EF, it will be best in terms of aerodynamic performance of all mrca. If we choose to pay over a $110 million an aircraft it might as well be the EF T-3 with TVC, possibly EL-2052 or SABR that is currently being reviewed for export possibilities with EF and Gripen.

Raytheon's RACR is also compatible with any western fighter and i wonder if we can have that baby on the Rafale, SH or even EF.
 

Vladimir79

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Vladimir, you seems to have completely missed the point. I had asked your perspective about generation perception of IAF about current MRCA in which Mig-35 simply doesn't fit, because it is the fighter jet of late 80s. How makers of Mig-35 who have fielded Mig for MRCA will going to fight this generational feature which is somehow missing from Mig-35 and major advantage for Figther jets like EF, Rafale and Gripens because of their ongoing development.
You already compared it to MKI which is 4++++ fighter ranked better than EF-2000 in Indian exercises. I don't see why you think MiG-35 is less than these other aerocrafts. It is coming with thrust vector, ground breaking OLS, second generation AESA, R-77M1 BVRAAMs, and a decent price tag if Sokol sucks up retooling costs. Since most of them will be made in India anyway that price shouldn't be too high. Our AESA is much more developed than the Gripen, Rafale, and even ahead of CAPTOR. The capabilities might not be as highly advertised as theirs but ours is working models and our next generation is touted to be better which can be upgraded. Also lets not forgot that GLONASS will be in full operation by the end of the year which means full access to GPS guided munitions from Russian constellation. If Amerika don't like what you are doing they can cut you off. We won't ever unless India declares war on us... never happen.
 

Dark Sorrow

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Other than the neighboring factor, what are the pitfalls of F-16?
I understand it has an old airframe. But I see more advantages of it, as it is easier to maintain and cost effective. All other aspects of MMRCA are present in it.
Where does this lose with F-18? (Leave out Naval role).
SH has better Radar. SH has a EW Suite don't forget towed decoy. From what I read on net it seems that SH has better electronics. SH can perform more types of operation compaired to Viper.
 

Soham

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MKI did rank better than the EF in some aspects as maneuverability and close in dogfights but EF out classes the MKI in sheer agility and acceleration, EF is far more advanced in avionics, given a good TVC on the T-3 EF, it will be best in terms of aerodynamic performance of all mrca. If we choose to pay over a $110 million an aircraft it might as well be the EF T-3 with TVC, possibly EL-2052 or SABR that is currently being reviewed for export possibilities with EF and Gripen.

Raytheon's RACR is also compatible with any western fighter and i wonder if we can have that baby on the Rafale, SH or even EF.
Outclasses ? The Su30MKI will outhandle anything short of an F-22A and even that awaits to be seen.

I can agree with you on the avionics. CAPTOR's capabilities are yet to be seen, and the same applies to the Russian AESA.
 

Soham

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SH has better Radar. SH has a EW Suite don't forget towed decoy. From what I read on net it seems that SH has better electronics. SH can perform more types of operation compaired to Viper.
Not true.
APG-80 is equivalent to APG-79.
Avionics on the F-16IN are pretty much on the same level as the Super Hornet.
They are just diff. aircrafts for different purposes.
 

kuku

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I think the APG-79 might score higher than the APG-80 on many counts.
The superhornet is the bigger aircraft with the bigger radar and its arranged in a manner that increases the area it can scan and incrases the area of the array.


Vs.
 
J

John

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apg-73 had a max. range of 160 NM or 296 km

APg-79 has max. range nearly twice as much as over 250NM or over 500km.

APG-80 is more similar to the EL-2052 both have a max. range of around 230NM or 460km. APG-79 V-3 also can track upto 36 aircraft and play awacs roles.

APG-80 has +-1000 T/R modules

APG-79 has + 1200 T/R modules

Zhuk AESA has 800 T/R modules with options to increase

RBE-2 AESA has +1000 T/R modules
 

Soham

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I think the APG-79 might score higher than the APG-80 on many counts.
The superhornet is the bigger aircraft with the bigger radar and its arranged in a manner that increases the area it can scan and incrases the area of the array.
Yes, maybe. Atleast the stats show :
APG 80(F 16 blk. 60)- made by NorthropGrumman. It has ~1000T/R and its max.det.range for a target with an RCS of 1 sqm=80 Nmiles;
APG 79 (F 18F/F) - made by Raytheon. It has ~1200 T/R and its max.det.range for a target with an RCS of 1 sqm=100 Nmiles.

But I would expect a much optimized APG-80 due to its presence in the F-35 JSF.

"The APG-80 will have almost twicethe air-to-air detection range offered bythe mechanically scanned APG-68(V)7,although it will concentrate on air-to-ground modes, with SAR ground imagingresolution of 1 ft or better."
http://www.aiaa.org/Aerospace/images/articleimages/pdf/AA_Feb06_EOE.pdf

So the APG-80 might be more of a air-to-ground optimized radar, while the 79 seems to be good for both.
 

p2prada

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We won't ever unless India declares war on us... never happen.
Na. Russia will still find a way to sell weapon systems to us and fight us at the same time.:blum3:

Is there a possibility of Russia selling the Izdeliye 610 along with the Mig-35?
Last I heard Russia will be the sole user of the R-37 whereas India gets to choose the less capable Novator K-100 for the MKIs.

And is there a possibility for Russia to provide 100%, no strings attached, ToT on the AESA?
 

Vladimir79

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Na. Russia will still find a way to sell weapon systems to us and fight us at the same time.:blum3:
Only the traitorous ones.

Is there a possibility of Russia selling the Izdeliye 610 along with the Mig-35?
Last I heard Russia will be the sole user of the R-37 whereas India gets to choose the less capable Novator K-100 for the MKIs.
It's a little small to be carrying that missile. I thought India was developing the K-100.

And is there a possibility for Russia to provide 100%, no strings attached, ToT on the AESA?
The ToT will meet the RFP. Anything else is a political decision beyond my pay grade.
 

p2prada

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Only the traitorous ones.
Hehe. Its only a joke. It's not going to happen anyways.:113:

It's a little small to be carrying that missile. I thought India was developing the K-100.
The R-37 at 4.2m is only 0.6m longer than the R-77 at 3.6m and the R-77M is significantly bigger than the older R-77 and a large diameter. But, the R-37 is no bigger than the KH-31, which is used by the Mig-29 itself. So, I don't see why the R-37 cannot be used on a bigger Mig-35. A significantly larger KH-59 SLAM can also be used on the Mig-35, which weighs over 900kg with a length around 6m.

The boosted version of K-100 is around 7.5m long and weighs over 700kg while the R-37 weighs around 600kg. So, that would suggest the R-37 is more suited for the "Super Fulcrum" than the K-100.

Nevertheless, India is hoping to export the K-100 to Russia once development is complete. The R-37 is more mature till date. I cannot say how the R-37 will affect stability if employed on the Super Fulcrum. But, Mig has not failed till date.

The ToT will meet the RFP. Anything else is a political decision beyond my pay grade.
True. Nothing can be said about any of the AESA It ain't over till the Fat Lady sings.
 

1.44

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Hi guys,
I know that the Gripen and Rafael offers include the source code,i wanted to know if the SH and Mig-35 include the the same.The US has said some restrictions will be there in the ToT do these include the radars?
 

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