MMRCA news and discussions.

Whats your Choice for the MMRCA Contest?

  • Gripen

    Votes: 5 4.9%
  • F16 IN

    Votes: 1 1.0%
  • F18 SH

    Votes: 8 7.8%
  • Mig 35

    Votes: 24 23.3%
  • Dassault Rafale

    Votes: 45 43.7%
  • Eurofighter Typhoon

    Votes: 20 19.4%

  • Total voters
    103

Vladimir79

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Word has it Sokol is not set up to manufacture it and their latest modifications to the plant are everything but preparing for it. The cost of production will raise the ticket price by a huge factor and will not be a cost efficient use of Indian funds. You can take MiG-35 out of the running as it is not cost efficient for us or India to go with it.
 

Soham

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Dark Sorrow,
Excellent images. Please post them in the resource thread too.
 

p2prada

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Word has it Sokol is not set up to manufacture it and their latest modifications to the plant are everything but preparing for it. The cost of production will raise the ticket price by a huge factor and will not be a cost efficient use of Indian funds. You can take MiG-35 out of the running as it is not cost efficient for us or India to go with it.
The Russians are planning to raise the fly away cost of the Mig-29k to $65million. This will indeed pose problems for the Mig-35. But, it is still cheaper than SH, Rafale and EF-2000. And on par with Viper and Gripen. Originally, Viper and Gripen were the only ones that actually fit the IAF requirements. The rest were added to the list out of political compulsions. But, IAF is not complaining about it.

108 of the fighters will be produced in India itself under license. If the first 18 production standard fighters are delivered, then I don't see why production will be a problem for any fighter.

As for Mig-35 in particular, we already have the infrastructure and the ground training required to maintain it. Not to mention experience flying the Mig-29. This makes the Mig the cheapest bet. We will not have to change a lot to accommodate a fighter that already exists in the IAF.
 

Dark Sorrow

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Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing System (JHMCS)

The joint helmet-mounted cueing system (JHMCS) is a multi-role system that enhances pilot situational awareness and provides head-out control of aircraft targeting systems and sensors.


In an air-to-air role, the JHMCS, combined with the AIM-9X missile, form the High-Off-BoreSight (HOBS) system. HOBS is an airborne weapon-interception system that enables pilots to accurately direct, or "cue," onboard weapons against enemy aircraft merely by pointing their heads at the targets to guide the weapons, while performing high-g aircraft maneuvers that may be required to complete the attack. In an air-to-ground role, the JHMCS is used in conjunction with targeting sensors (radar, FLIR, etc.) and "smart weapons" to accurately and precisely attack surface targets. In all roles, the JHMCS provides the pilot with aircraft performance, targeting, weaponry and threat warning information, regardless of where the pilot is looking, significantly enhancing pilot situation awareness throughout the mission. In a dual-seat aircraft, each crewmember can wear a JHMCS helmet, perform operations independent of each other, and have continuous awareness of where the other crewmember is looking.

JHMCS Operation

The JHMCS has a magnetic helmet-mounted tracker determines where the pilot's head is pointed, combined with a miniature display system that projects information onto the pilot's visor. The head tracker and visor display act as a targeting device that can aim sensors and weapons wherever the pilot is looking.
(1)To obtain a variety of information and sensor-based data -- such as airspeed, altitude, target range, etc. -- pilots can refer to the visual display on the inside of the helmet while remaining in a "heads-up" position during combat; this eliminates the break in visual contact that occurs when they look away to check the display readouts in the cockpit.
(2)To aim and fire a missile, pilots simply point their heads at the targets and press a switch on the flight controls to direct and fire a weapon.
(3)To attack a ground target, the pilot can acquire the target with a sensor and note it's location on the helmet display. Alternatively, the pilot can use the helmet display to cue sensors and weapons to a visually detected ground target.


JHMCS Details


As a cueing system, JHMCS is a two-way interface that comprises the following capabilities:
(1)Sensors aboard the aircraft can cue pilots to potential targets; conversely, pilots can cue weapons and sensor systems to areas of interest -- aiming radar, air-to-air missiles, infrared sensors, and air-to-ground weapons by pointing their heads at the targets.
(2)The system graphically displays critical information and symbols -- such as targeting cues, threat warnings, and aircraft performance parameters -- directly on the pilot's visor. This significantly improves pilot situational awareness during all mission elements.
(3)The system can be used without requiring the aircraft to be maneuvered, significantly reducing the time needed to prosecute an attack, which also minimizes the time spent in the threat environment.
(4)Since targets may be located at high-off-boresight line-of-sight locations in relation to the shooter, the system delivers a short-range intercept envelope that is significantly larger than any other air-to-air weapon in use.
(5)When used in conjunction with a datalink, the system permits handoff of visually detected targets from one aircraft to another, with the second aircraft receiving visual cueing to the target.

JHMCS is deployed operationally on over 1,500 F-15, F-16, and F/A-18 aircraft worldwide, including several international air forces that employ these aircraft.
 

Soham

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Vladmir,

According to you, in which key areas does the Mig-35 dominate over the other contenders apart from maneuverability and the cost factor ?
 
J

John

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brought up like a king and live like a king. Rafale's weapons...hmm lets see

http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/2393/Rafale-weapon-options.jpg

it can still only carry 5 long range BVR, pathetic compared to the SH's 10 Aim-120s. Apache is too expensive, HARM not impressive, Maverick...hhmmm too old. only 3*1000kg bombs, sucks, the conventional payload is gr8 but not guided, so sucks because the pilot has to get close, Belouga, durandal, BAP-100 deployed on mirages, besides useless because the home made HSLD can be used for same roles. Besides LGBs, ALARM(too expensive), MICA, Harpoon, Exocet, Penguin-3, Aim-120C, most weapons not impressive.

Those conventional weapons mean that the Rafale which is also much more expensive has to get closer to the ground target to hit it which means the risk of being shot down is higher, it is indeed less riskier and overall cheaper to use stand-off weapons, you avoid getting closer to the enemy, drop cheap and pretty accurate long range weapons. the Rafale doesn't even drop a decent LJDAM, JDAM-ER which are still cheaper than its primary GPS weapon the ASSM, the JDAM-ER also has a longer range and the SH can carry 4*1000KG and cause havoc over 50 NM away which is around 90 km. its cheaper because you don't have to fly upto the enemy, fuel savings, accurate targeting, no random carpet bombing close to the enemy, no need for lots of small conventional weapons to destroy the target, virtually 0 risk to the pilot and the aircraft.

Rafale's limited weapons have no weapons flexibility especially PGMs. Rafale can't out run a barrage of MANPADS launched at it on a conventional bombing run, it will hit the target but returning home is another story, MANPADS are cheap and if the enemy was to fire 3 or 4 of those in-expensive defensive weapons simultaneously, well any MRCA will be shot down. we cant afford to loose expensive aircraft on a silly bombing run, what we need is long range standoff weapons and SH is ideal for that.

we all know the importance of PGMs and Rafale falls short miserably in PGM roles, except for LGBs and very expensive ASSM, it has no pgms, it can drop JDAM, gr8 but not good enough.
In places like himalayas, the weather can be nasty and LGBs can be useless this is when SH's LJDAM can come in handy with the pilot choosing between gps or laser guidance depending on conditions. SDB can be used on moving, stationary or hardened targets ideal because so much mission flexibility in a single sortie, a single SDB is enough to take out an f-16 bunker or destroy a moving scud launcher in the same mission, more over US made 'bunker busters' are also deployed on the SHs.

ASSM has a max. range of 50km while the JDAM-ER has a max. range of 90km and is much cheaper, JSOW-A/C can be used on ground and sea moving targets and the normal version is a glide bomb cheaper than the Apache anti runway weapons. come to think of it Apache and storm shadow are the only long range air to ground missiles Rafale can deploy, Apache costs 1.6 million euros a unit and Storm shadow which has range of around 250km is very similar to the SLAM-ER which has a range of 270 km, can hit moving targets and at a cheaper price, SH can also deploy the Taurus KEPD range 500km and we can buy it coz no mtcr, Rafale can't as of yet. I am sure given these weapons the Rafale can be very effective but what kills the Rafale is the price. SH can fire Asraam, Aim-9x, Iris-T, mica is on mirage but the upgraded mirages will fire Asraam. dont hate the Rafale just hate the fact that a lot needs to be done to make it relatively useful.
 

Dark Sorrow

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Apg-79 AESA

The revolutionary AN/APG-79 AESA radar provides F/A-18 E/F aircrews with powerful new capabilities.

The AN/APG-79 AESA radar system represents a significant advance in radar technology. Entirely new from front-end array to back-end processor and operational software, the system substantially increases the power of the U.S. Navy’s F/A-18 E/F Super Hornet, making it more lethal and less vulnerable than ever before.

With its active electronic beam scanning — which allows the radar beam to be steered at nearly the speed of light — the APG-79 optimizes situational awareness and provides superior air-to-air and air-to-ground capability. The agile beam enables the radar’s air-to-air and air-to-ground modes to interleave in near-real time, so that pilot and crew can use both modes simultaneously, an unprecedented technological leap.

Now in full rate production for the Navy, the APG-79 demonstrates reliability, image resolution, and targeting and tracking range significantly greater than that of the current F/A-18 radar. With its open systems architecture and compact, commercial-off-the-shelf (COTS) parts, it delivers dramatically increased capability in a smaller, lighter package. The array is composed of numerous solid-state transmit and receive modules to virtually eliminate mechanical breakdown. Other system components include an advanced receiver/exciter, ruggedized COTS processor, and power supplies.

Raytheon has delivered more than 125 APG-79 AESA radars to Boeing, with the Navy program of record totalling 437 systems ordered. In 2008, Raytheon delivered its first APG-79 for the EA-18 Growler aircraft, and achieved its first operational AESA deployment on an F/A-18 E/F Super Hornet Block II squadron.







The F/A-18 E/F Super Hornet’s current radar is Raytheon’s all-weather, multimode AN/APG-73, but the revolutionary new Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) APG-79 radar offers significantly greater capability, reliability, image resolution, and range. Unlike the “mechanically scanned” APG-73, the APG-79’s AESA array is composed of numerous solid-state transmit and receive modules that are fixed in place, eliminating a common cause of breakdowns. Other system components include an advanced receiver/exciter, ruggedized commercial-off-the-shelf (COTS) processor, and power supplies. With its open systems architecture and compact COTS parts, it changes what the aircrew can do with the radar – and does so in a smaller, lighter package.

Boeing and Raytheon debuted the F/A-18F Block II Super Hornet equipped with the AN/APG-79 AESA radar system at a St. Louis ceremony in April 2005. That was the first step toward fulfilling the Navy’s roadmap to expand the F/A-18E/F Super Hornet’s capabilities for future operations. In October 2006, the first Super Hornet Block II squadron attained the requisite “safe for flight” designation, certifying that they were ready for independent operations with the new equipment. The radar will also be featured on the USA’s related EA-18G Growler electronic jamming aircraft, as it enters service.

This article has been expanded to become DID’s complete Spotlight article covering the APG-79 radar’s capabilities, results, and contracts. Developments since our last update involve a contract for more retrofit radars…
 

Vladimir79

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Vladmir,

According to you, in which key areas does the Mig-35 dominate over the other contenders apart from maneuverability and the cost factor ?
It doesn't even dominate in cost factor. As I was saying, the fly away cost is going to increase when production orders are called for. Sokol has done NOTHING to prepare for it and retooling the production line will cost hundreds of millions. India will demand they pay for their own retooling and Sokol will have them ostat'sya s nosom (leaving the bag). The MiG-35 will be superior to all except Super Bug in radar, better 360 degree OLS. The competition really comes down to the Hornet and MiG-35 as the MiG is the better air superiority fighter but the Super Bug is the better bomb truck. The fact the Amerikans are ready to go with production tommorow and the fact we are not even ready to begin production three years from now is the end of this tender. I think the decision by Sokol to fund the Yak-130, and not to spread the wealth to the MiG-35 shows their lack of confidence in gaining this order.
 

Dark Sorrow

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Apg-80 aesa

Type
Airborne Fire Control Radar (FCR).

Description
The AN/APG-80 ABR is the designation of the Foreign Military Sales (FMS) radar offered with the Lockheed Martin F-16 Block 60+ aircraft. Featuring a wideband Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA), the APG-80 is the first production system to benefit from Northrop Grumman's fourth-generation transmitter/receiver module technologies which provide significantly enhanced performance over the latest AN/APG-68(V)9 (see separate entry) which equips current Block 50/52 F-16s of the USAF, while maintaining installation commonality with that system.Considering the multirole mission of the F-16, the AN/APG-80 baseline configuration represents a significant upgrade in capability, with advanced interleaving of modes enabling the pilot to maintain Situational Awareness (SA) and weapons-quality tracking of air-air targets while prosecuting air-ground attacks. Air-air features and improvements over current versions of the AN/APG-68 include:Expanded bandwidthGreater detection range140° track volume20 target multitrack (with growth potential for up to 50 for greater SA)Six targets tracked simultaneously at Single-Target-Track (STT) accuracyMaintains tracking at greater range and target Line-of-Sight (LOS) ratesLow RCS providing Low Probability of Intercept (LPI) by target.These features combine seamlessly with improvements in air-ground capability:Automatic Terrain Following (ATF)Ultra-High-Resolution Synthetic Aperture Radar (UHRSAR)Extensive Electronic Counter-Counter Measures (ECCM).In addition to the baseline features of the system, optional features include:Enhanced SAR/Automatic Target Cueing (ATC)Moving Target Indicator (MTI)-on-SAR.The AN/APG-80 incorporates extensive growth potential with a predicted Mean Time Between Failures (MTBF) of 390 hours, approaching double that of the current baseline radar for Block 50 aircraft, the AN/APG-68(V)5


Key contents include
Analysis
Avionic Communication
Navigation
Identification (CNI) Systems
Flight/Mission Management (FM/MM) and Display Systems
Airborne Electro-Optic (EO) Systems
Airborne Radar Systems
Airborne Electronic Warfare (EW)
Aircraft cockpits


Different sections provide in-depth detail Covering Airborne Electro Optic (Eo)
Systems
Airborne Electronic Warfare (Ew) Systems
Airborne Radar Systems
Aircraft Cockpits
Aircraft Control And Monitoring Systems
Aircraft Identification And Safety Of Flight (Sof) Systems
Aircraft Navigation Systems
Analysis
Avionic Communications Systems
Combined Cni Systems
Contractors
Flight/Mission Management (Fm/Mm) And Display Systems
Glossary
The Electromagnetic Spectrum

The APG-80 is designed to search continuously for and track multiple targets within the forward hemisphere of the aircraft. As a result of increased operational flexibility, pilots will be able to simultaneously perform air-to-air search-and-track, air-to-ground targeting and aircraft terrain-following.

Additional advances of the APG-80 agile beam radar include much greater detection range, high-resolution synthetic aperture radar imagery, and a two-fold increase in reliability compared to conventional, mechanically scanned radars.

The APG-80 features advanced air-to-air and air-to-ground modes and incorporates Northrop Grumman's fourth-generation transmitter/receiver technologies.

APG-80 radar deliveries are scheduled through late 2005 for the fleet of 80 F-16 Block 60 aircraft destined for the UAE.

As Northrop Grumman commences delivery of production APG-80 radars for the F-16 Block 60 program, testing of additional software modes will continue into next year using test radars on board the company's BAC 1-11 test bed aircraft in Baltimore. Following formal radar acceptance tests in mid-July, the radar was delivered to Lockheed Martin's Aeronautics Company facility in Fort Worth, Texas.

The radar will be installed in the first F-16 Block 60 airframe by the end of September. First flight of this aircraft is scheduled for late november.

The APG-80 is designed to search continuously for and track multiple targets within the forward hemisphere of the aircraft. As a result of increased operational flexibility, pilots will be able to simultaneously perform air-to-air search- and-track, air-to-ground targeting and aircraft terrain-following. Additional advances of the APG-80 agile beam radar include much greater detection range, high-resolution synthetic aperture radar imagery, and a two-fold increase in reliability compared to conventional, mechanically scanned radars.

In addition to the radar, Northrop Grumman is providing the Integrated Forward-Looking Infrared and Targeting System (IFTS) and the Integrated Electronic Warfare System (IEWS) for the F-16 Block 60 aircraft. Included in the Block 60 contract is the Combined Intermediate Automatic Test Equipment (CIATE) program. The CIATE is capable of automatically testing all three Northrop Grumman sensor systems -- the APG-80, IFTS, and IEWS -- and will detect faults and allow subsystem repair down to the component level.






http://www.es.northropgrumman.com/solutions/f16aesaradar/assets/AI_medium.mpg
 

p2prada

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brought up like a king and live like a king. Rafale's weapons...hmm lets see

http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/2393/Rafale-weapon-options.jpg

it can still only carry 5 long range BVR, pathetic compared to the SH's 10 Aim-120s. Apache is too expensive, HARM not impressive, Maverick...hhmmm too old. only 3*1000kg bombs, sucks, the conventional payload is gr8 but not guided, so sucks because the pilot has to get close, Belouga, durandal, BAP-100 deployed on mirages, besides useless because the home made HSLD can be used for same roles. Besides LGBs, ALARM(too expensive), MICA, Harpoon, Exocet, Penguin-3, Aim-120C, most weapons not impressive.

Those conventional weapons mean that the Rafale which is also much more expensive has to get closer to the ground target to hit it which means the risk of being shot down is higher, it is indeed less riskier and overall cheaper to use stand-off weapons, you avoid getting closer to the enemy, drop cheap and pretty accurate long range weapons. the Rafale doesn't even drop a decent LJDAM, JDAM-ER which are still cheaper than its primary GPS weapon the ASSM, the JDAM-ER also has a longer range and the SH can carry 4*1000KG and cause havoc over 50 NM away which is around 90 km. its cheaper because you don't have to fly upto the enemy, fuel savings, accurate targeting, no random carpet bombing close to the enemy, no need for lots of small conventional weapons to destroy the target, virtually 0 risk to the pilot and the aircraft.

Rafale's limited weapons have no weapons flexibility especially PGMs. Rafale can't out run a barrage of MANPADS launched at it on a conventional bombing run, it will hit the target but returning home is another story, MANPADS are cheap and if the enemy was to fire 3 or 4 of those in-expensive defensive weapons simultaneously, well any MRCA will be shot down. we cant afford to loose expensive aircraft on a silly bombing run, what we need is long range standoff weapons and SH is ideal for that.

we all know the importance of PGMs and Rafale falls short miserably in PGM roles, except for LGBs and very expensive ASSM, it has no pgms, it can drop JDAM, gr8 but not good enough.
In places like himalayas, the weather can be nasty and LGBs can be useless this is when SH's LJDAM can come in handy with the pilot choosing between gps or laser guidance depending on conditions. SDB can be used on moving, stationary or hardened targets ideal because so much mission flexibility in a single sortie, a single SDB is enough to take out an f-16 bunker or destroy a moving scud launcher in the same mission, more over US made 'bunker busters' are also deployed on the SHs.

ASSM has a max. range of 50km while the JDAM-ER has a max. range of 90km and is much cheaper, JSOW-A/C can be used on ground and sea moving targets and the normal version is a glide bomb cheaper than the Apache anti runway weapons. come to think of it Apache and storm shadow are the only long range air to ground missiles Rafale can deploy, Apache costs 1.6 million euros a unit and Storm shadow which has range of around 250km is very similar to the SLAM-ER which has a range of 270 km, can hit moving targets and at a cheaper price, SH can also deploy the Taurus KEPD range 500km and we can buy it coz no mtcr, Rafale can't as of yet. I am sure given these weapons the Rafale can be very effective but what kills the Rafale is the price. SH can fire Asraam, Aim-9x, Iris-T, mica is on mirage but the upgraded mirages will fire Asraam. dont hate the Rafale just hate the fact that a lot needs to be done to make it relatively useful.
Your posts are immature, lack substance and carry a lot (a lot) of wrong information. Learn more and comeback after a few years. Mayhaps then you will be able to post something substantial to think about.
 

Soham

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It doesn't even dominate in cost factor. As I was saying, the fly away cost is going to increase when production orders are called for. Sokol has done NOTHING to prepare for it and retooling the production line will cost hundreds of millions. India will demand they pay for their own retooling and Sokol will have them ostat'sya s nosom (leaving the bag). The MiG-35 will be superior to all except Super Bug in radar, better 360 degree OLS. The competition really comes down to the Hornet and MiG-35 as the MiG is the better air superiority fighter but the Super Bug is the better bomb truck. The fact the Amerikans are ready to go with production tommorow and the fact we are not even ready to begin production three years from now is the end of this tender. I think the decision by Sokol to fund the Yak-130, and not to spread the wealth to the MiG-35 shows their lack of confidence in gaining this order.
How do you define air superiority in the era of BVR missiles ?
Airframe-wise, the Mig-35 is definitely miles ahead in A2A engagements, but do you think this advantage holds relevance in the era of AESA, and AIM-120Ds ?

The Mig might have an excellent OLS system, but would the engagement even reach the level of its requirement ?
Do you see fighters facing off one-on-one ?
 

luckyy

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How do you define air superiority in the era of BVR missiles ?
Airframe-wise, the Mig-35 is definitely miles ahead in A2A engagements, but do you think this advantage holds relevance in the era of AESA, and AIM-120Ds ?

The Mig might have an excellent OLS system, but would the engagement even reach the level of its requirement ?
Do you see fighters facing off one-on-one ?
this is the era of AESA and AIM-120Ds , ok , but this is also the era of missile jammers ...

AESA can detect a incoming aircraft from a long distence , so what , in the presence of missile jammers , AIM-120Ds can't be fired..

so , in the end , we are back to old style A2A dogfight gunshots..
 

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