MMRCA news and discussions.

Whats your Choice for the MMRCA Contest?

  • Gripen

    Votes: 5 4.9%
  • F16 IN

    Votes: 1 1.0%
  • F18 SH

    Votes: 8 7.8%
  • Mig 35

    Votes: 24 23.3%
  • Dassault Rafale

    Votes: 45 43.7%
  • Eurofighter Typhoon

    Votes: 20 19.4%

  • Total voters
    103
J

John

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As much as I love the Su-30MKI (its gorgeous) I don't think that it could compete with the EF in the A2A role or the Super Hornet in the A2G role. Its RCS is just WAY too big.

Does anyone know if the El-2052 could be put on the EF? Is the Radar too big for it? Since the EF Aesa development is in limbo, the 2052 would be a better choice than the SABR or RACR. India does love Israeli tech and they are familiar with it and Israel wouldn't downgrade the radar I don't think!
I agree Mki is a gr8 all-rounder and any pilot flying against it will take it as a very serious threat and that pilot could be in a F-35, F-22, F-18SH or even EF. The mki sure holds a distinct advantage in close in roles but fact still remains that in any close in fights between any two 4.5 gen aircraft the outcome eventually depends on sheer pilot skill, just like a F-18G was able to get a gun kill on a Raptor, Mki can do the same and the SH can do the same to the mki, SH holds a point and shoot advantage and its nose/pitch and yaw authority are un-paralleled, Mki holds a super maneuverability advantage, EF holds a speed and agility advantage, F-22 holds an advantage in all of the above + stealth. If US clears SABR or RACR for the EF, well the ideal option because there aren't any other radars quite as good or competitive as these. Fact remains LM was considering offering the RACR with the F-16IN if it is cleared. F-18 SH can also carry the RACR. Again we'd like to have 100% tot and for such advanced radars i doubt the US will give full-tot hence EL-2052 becomes default radar and can pretty much go on the Falcon, EF or Gripen NG. Either way i am just glad the MRCA will be one heck of an aircraft no matter which one we choose.
 

slug55

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The only thing that worries me about the El-2052 is its detection range and the fact that it isn't used on any israeli aircraft. I know it can't be used on the SUFA but I thought the F-15's might have been upgraded with it. I can't find a source that says what it could be close to. I know that it can track up to 64 targets simultaneously which is very impressive. If the detection range is similar to the APG-79 than it would be the perfect fit for the EF. I don't know enough about Racr or SABR to compare them to the EL-2052 but since they are offered as part of the MLU for F-16 Im going to assume that they are inferior.
 

Pintu

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IAI forced out of fighter jet deal by Pentagon | Israel | Jerusalem Post

Jul 5, 2009 5:50 | Updated Jul 5, 2009 7:57

IAF forced out of Indian fighter jet bid

By YAAKOV KATZ

Under pressure from the Pentagon, Israel Aerospace Industries (IAI) has been forced to back out of a joint partnership with a Swedish aerospace company to compete in a multi-billion dollar tender to sell new multi-role fighter jets to the Indian Air Force.

The deal, estimated at a whopping $12 billion for over 120 new aircraft, is being fought over by Lockheed Martin's F-16, Boeing's F-18/Hornet, Russia's MiG-35 and BAE's Eurofighter. IAI was asked by Saab, manufacturer of the Gripen, to jointly develop an advanced model which would compete for the deal.

The Defense Ministry ordered IAI to back out of the deal after the Pentagon expressed concern that American technology, used by Israel, would be integrated into the Gripen offered to the Indians.

"The stated concern was that Western technology in Israeli hands would make its way to the Indians," one Israeli official said.

What was strange with the American request was that Boeing and Lockheed Martin - the two largest US defense contractors - are also competing for the Indian deal. For this reason, Israeli officials said it was more likely that the Americans were concerned that if IAI competed for the deal with Saab, it would force the American companies to lower their prices.

A multi-role fighter, the Gripen is in service in Sweden, the Czech Republic, Hungary and South Africa. IAI was supposed to provide the electronic systems - radar, communications and electronic-warfare - for the plane.

This is not the first time that an Israeli company has been forced out of a deal due to concerns that competing with American companies would endanger Israeli-US relations.

Last summer, the MoD ordered Israel Military Industries (IMI) to back down from submitting a bid for a half-a-billion dollar deal to develop and manufacture a new tank for the Turkish Armed Forces.

At the time, Turkey had informed the MoD of its interest in developing a new tank and asked if IMI would want to submit a bid. SIBAT - the MOD's Foreign Defense Assistance and Defense Export Organization - decided not to submit an Israeli offer so not to compete with the Americans and endanger Israeli-US defense relations.
 
J

John

Guest
both RACR and SABR are quite advanced and may not really offer better ranges but better resolution and lower MTBF. EL-2052 is just finishing up its full scale testing even with the Israelis and will probably go on their F-15I. EL-2052 is also compatible with mirages, f-16 mig-29s etc. When LCA can carry it i am sure the Falcon can too. It has a reported detection range of over 220 NM or 410 km, it doesn't come close to the APG-79 but it could be the best radar available if full tot of APG-79 is not given. EL-2052 could be the 3rd best radar option if the APG-81/79 dont come with full tot.

http://www.iai.co.il/sip_storage/files/4/36834.pdf
 

Pintu

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IAF forced out of Indian fighter jet bid
^^^^^ Mistake in the above headline in the report itself , probably the headline should have been 'IAI forced out of Indian fighter jet bid'.

Regards
 
J

John

Guest
but US pressure on Israel could very well put the EL-2052 out of the table. Besides we're getting the EL-2052 for the LCA which is ideal. we should simply order the SH and get it over with.
 

slug55

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There's no way that the APG-81 would be offered to india, Sorry! The El-2052 would be india's best option on the EF or MIg-35 if they are chosen.Hopefully the Mig-35 isn't chosen it would be a huge mistake on India's part. I don't know about the Rafale's AESA but they want the contract in India and UAE badly so it should be comparable to the APG-79.
The link you sent had one strange thing in it though, It shows an Israeli Sufa carrying the EL-2052 but I don't think Israel is allowed to put their indigenous radars in it. It was part of the deal when they created the SUFA. Its probably just a photo shop error.
 

slug55

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but US pressure on Israel could very well put the EL-2052 out of the table. Besides we're getting the EL-2052 for the LCA which is ideal. we should simply order the SH and get it over with.
I have a feeling that this might happen.
You shouldn't be so sure, as much as I love the Super Hornet the EF and the Rafale will give it a run for its money. It all depends on what India wants in the end. If they want true Air-dominance over anything Pakistan or China can field in the next 10+ years choose the EF. If India want's something to boost its inadequate A2G capabilities choose the Super Hornet. If they want something in the Middle choose the Rafale.
My vote is the EF; its engine on the LCA along with India being part of the consortium is too tempting to turn down. Plus its the second best fighter out there besides the Raptor. And is gorgeous.:113:
 
J

John

Guest
sorry i mean the apg-80 for the super viper. Rafale's AESA has a max. detection range of around 150 km and is the worst AESA in the lot in terms of ranges. The fact remains the EF, Rafale are very expensive and the proposed F-4 or T-3 variants with new engines( have no funding), probably an external AESA, weapons integrations etc. will put the bill of the Rafale or EF well over the $130 million per aircraft. Now the SH is the best A2G aircraft and it can carry upto 12 A2A missiles the highest load among the MRCA, GE is offering new higher thrust engine which will put its thrust to weight ratio at around similar to the mig-29 which is good enough for it to improve its overall aerodynamic performance. Moreover the engine will also increase its range by over 20% as well. taking weapons, avionics and overall mission capability SH remains the ideal option besides we have some of the best Air superiority aircraft in the world to counter for any A2A shortcomings that SH could show, but i am sure that SH has the ability to match any modern A2A threat. Besides if we buy EF or Rafale, till meteor arrives Aim-120C-7 will be its primary A2A missile but with SH and Falcon we get Aim-120D and we can get Meteor later on if we want.
 

I-G

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'US forces Israeli firm to back out of IAF jet bid'

'US forces Israeli firm to back out of IAF jet bid'

Jerusalem, July 05: The United States has forced an Israeli defence firm to back out of a multi-billion dollar tender to sell new multi-role fighter planes to the Indian Air Force, a newspaper has claimed.

Under pressure from the Pentagon, the Israeli Defense Ministry has ordered Israel Aerospace Industries to back out of the deal as America expressed concern that its technology, used by Israel, would be integrated into the Gripen jets to be offered to India, 'The Jerusalem Post' reported.

"The stated concern was that Western technology in Israeli hands would make its way to the Indians," an unnamed Israeli official was quoted as saying.

But, what was strange with the American request was that Boeing and Lockheed Martin -- the two largest US defense contractors -- are also competing for the 120 aircraft deal, which is estimated at a whopping USD 12 billion.

For this reason, Israeli officials said it was more likely that the Americans were concerned that if IAI competed for the deal with Swedish aerospace company, Saab, it would force the American companies to lower their prices.

A multi-role fighter, the Gripen, is in service in Sweden, the Czech Republic, Hungary and South Africa. IAI was supposed to provide the electronic systems -- communications, radar and electronic-warfare -- for the plane.

This is not the first time that an Israeli company has been forced out of a deal because of US pressure. Last summer, the Israel Military Industries was ordered to back of a bid for a half-a-billion dollar deal to develop a new tank for the Turkish Armed Forces.

`US forces Israeli firm to back out of IAF jet bid`
 
J

John

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MMRCA Part 5 - The American Turbo Bug

The F/A-18E/F/IN Super Hornet is a little gem of an aircraft, except it's hardly little. It's 30% heavier than the legacy Hornet, and its designation was only kept the same to ease the pushing through of the idea to US Congress. In a sense, the Hornet is better known than the F-16 during the Cold War era. It was aircraft carriers stacked to the hilt with Hornets that prowled international waters for decades (and continue to do so with both Hornet and Super Hornets). Many say the Super Hornet is a completely new aircraft, which should have been given a new designation number and a new name, considering just what a different aircraft it is. But the IAF recognises that, not least because Boeing's Super Hornet has also been among the most visible aircraft in the sweepstakes:

STRENGTHS

It was Boeing, remember, that changed the entire complexion of the MMRCA, by "elbowing" (a phrase used by the IAF, but not with acrimony) itself into what was to be a competition for a medium-weight, medium-range fighterplane. It was also Boeing which virtually pulled the rug from under the other contenders by being the first to express its intention to supply an active electronically-scalled array (AESA) radar with its contender -- the highly respected Raytheon APG-79 radar. It was only after the IAF began doggedly pursuing information on the Raytheon radar and export licensing information that the other five contenders jumped onto the bandwagon and began either offering AESA radars, or publicising them in a more emphatic manner. The IAF recognises that unwaveringly, but still gives Boeing credit for changing the game. Among the six competing radars, the IAF has also been most exposed to the capabilities of the APG-79 that comes with the Super Hornet, in simulators and live flights. One IAF pilot who took the front seat in a Super Hornet at Aero India 2007 said he found the airplane's digital flight control system (FCS) to be possibly the most mature and intelligent in the world on a fourth generation aircraft. Many in the IAF are of the opinion that alleviation of pilot workload is something that has been achieved in a dramatic way in the Super Hornet -- its cockpit, one pilot says, is the very definition of convenience, automation and ergonomics. The AN/ASQ-228 advanced targeting forward looking infrared (ATFLIR) targeting pod is considered on par, if not better, than Lockheed-Martin's equivalent on the F-16IN. A lot of folks thought the fact that the Super Hornet is a naval fighter would be a downer, but no -- it has actually translated into its acceptance as a far more rugged, quick reaction fighter, which the Super Hornet undoubtedly is. In demonstration flight debriefs, the IAF has been careful to note that the airplane's short take-off capability with near full combat load is undeniable, as are its handling characteristics at low altitude with the same load. The Super Hornet comes backed by a firm that the government of India has a lot of experience dealing with. The fact that ahead of the F-35C, the US Navy's air arm is being standardised across roles on the Super Hornet platform is a source of great reassurance, for its reputation as the Navy's next "swiss-army knife". Being fairly battle proven despite its freshness off the block is a good thing too.

WEAKNESSES

The Super Hornet is in approximately the same weight class as the Su-30, and is, in every way, a heavy hitter, with all the attendant cross-section and logistics issues. The IAF has expressed apprehensions about the Super Hornet's logistics footprint (and its overall impact on ownership costs), though these have been discussed only internally -- they will be taken up during the foreign leg of the field evaluation tests (FETs). The Super Hornet is a rugged, beast of an airplane no doubt, but there remains a substantial quarter in the IAF which is still hung on the apprehension that it is, ultimately, a maritime strike fighter. "Let's face it. The development of the Super Hornet was with the US Navy in mind. The exports to other country's air forces are simply bonuses. It is a maritime strike fighter, with a maritime role development history behind it. Fielding it as an air force jet is borne from commercial considerations. Both Boeing and Lockheed are trying to maximise profits from the F-18/F-16 production lines before they have to shut shop for the F-35," says one senior IAF pilot, who does not fly anymore. The Indian government has opened its Boeing IDS account with the P-8I Poseidon deal -- the government may be wary of laying it on too thick with one vendor.

LiveFist: MMRCA Part 5 - The American Turbo Bug
 

venom

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MRCA Evaluation

Mig-35 Flurcum.

The way the Russians have been behaving over a multiplicity of ongoing defence contracts, it would seem as though they had no real interest in the MMRCA deal. The complexion in ties has changed so deeply since the 1980s, that there is a very palpable degree of acrimony in pretty much every dealing with the Russians these days. They'll release photos of smiling Indian MoD bureaucrafts with their bureau officials, but behind the scenes, things are almost always ugly. Yet, Russia has gargantuan leverage with India, based entirely of course on the huge number of deals yet to be completed. The MiG-35 comes across as not convincing enough, and Russia has still to prove that it is a reliable after-sales supplier. The one thing that the Russians have managed to pull off, is to convince the IAF that the MiG-35 isn't just any old Fulcrum. It's the Fulcrum.

STRENGTHS

One of the principal draws of the MiG-35 is commonality of inventory type. Alongside the Indian Navy's MiG-29Ks and the IAF's upgraded MiG-29s, a lot of senior MoD officials believe the MiG-35 would be a sensible choice that would translate into real savings in infrastructure and trainign costs. The IAF holds its MiG-29s in high esteem. In fact, the MiG-29M/M2 and subsequently the MiG-35, were developed based in part on informal but organised feedback from IAF pilots on what was required to make the MiG-29 a truly multipurpose airplane. The IAF says it is eagerly awaiting more information and a demonstration of the FGA-35 variant of the Phazotron Zhuk-AE AESA radar, yet untested. In demonstration flights, IAF pilots have also been given an expansive look at the MiG-35's highly unique optronic locator system (OLS), which one IAF pilot (who flew the MiG-35 at Aero India 2007) said surpassed similar gear on some of the other aircraft. The OLS consists of an infrared search and track sensor in on the nose of the aircraft, and a ground attack sensor fitted next to one of the intakes. The IAF has been given demonstrations of the RD-33MK turbofan, and is very pleased with what Klimov has managed to achieve with it, against some fairly difficult deadline and legacy odds, though the IAF and MoD were terribly irked and continue to be so with Russia's decision to sell jet engines to Pakistan for the JF programme -- something that could spell real trouble in the final decision (Remember, other countries sell to Pakistan as well, but India reserves great expectations from Russia, especially since Moscow has articulated these loyalties more than once). Rosoboronexport has managed to convince the IAF quite effectively that the MiG-35 is indeed a quantum technological leap from the legacy Fulcrum. Politically, India continues to have enormous strategic ties with Russia, notwithstanding a certain fraying in recent times. Russia has always supported India politically during operations, and has never dared to question India's use of its equipment. Finally, the Russians have the most well-entrenched and experienced lobby within the IAF and government. And extravagant acts of politico-strategic altruism are not unprecedented when it comes to Indo-Russian defence ties.

WEAKNESSES

The MiG-35 programme has a single prototype (the ubiquitous No. 154 -- I flew in this at MAKS 07) and that too one without a full complement of the avionics/sensor package listed in the offered configuration. As a result, the IAF is of the view that a lot of the MiG-35's capabilities, as articulated by its engineers and pilots, are still theoretical, even though they may be perfectly real once the full package is integrated and available. With field evaluations to begin anytime now, there's a sense of apprehension about just how MiG will demonstrate the aircraft without testbed platforms -- which obviously throws up the question, will the IAF consider technological parameters on testbeds rather than on a fully integrated fighter plane? The MiG-35 is rigged with the MIL-STD-1553 electrical data bus, which could prove a serious downer, considering that some rival contenders come with the MIL-STD-1773 optical fibre based data bus, which the IAF is seriously interested in. A factor that almost needs no mentioning is that Russia has carelessly squandered any time it was given to prove its reliability, but persisting with its putrid reputation for being fickle, even heartlessly apathetic, when it came to after-sales support. Even the IAF's existing MiG-29s suffer from serviceability issues as a result of Russia's refusal to cooperate quickly on spares and aggregates support. Something that could go majorly against the MiG-35 is also the fact that the Russian Air Force has no immediate plans to place orders for the aircraft, and is instead going the Super Flanker way with greater gusto. Politically, the government feels there is little that can be politically gained from Russia, considering that strategic ties are already mature, even at a saturation level. Secondly, Russia's position in international politics has plummetted relentlessly since the 1990s, and the country offers no strategic advantages anymore. Third, buying from Russia would be a full-frontal on the US, which -- like it or not -- is India's principal foreign policy holy grail.


JAS-39 Grippin IN

Saab's tagline for the Gripen India campaign ("The Independent Choice") tells you a great deal about the depth of recognition by the company that the competition will most definitely be decided on political lines. Politically, the Gripen is squarely the odds-on underdog in the competition. The fact that it is an "independent choice" hasn't impressed an establishment that refuses to budge from the perception that the purchase of 126 fighters is as much a definitive politico-strategic investment as it is the topping up of depleting squadron strength of the IAF. This is not unreasonable, and even IAF pilots believe that the MMRCA contract is a chance to change a lot of things. Some view the Gripen's marketing as defensive, almost yielding too much to the overwhelming perception that India will buy American. But the aircraft itself has a great deal going for it.

STRENGTHS

Apart from the fact that is undoubtedly an excellent airplane, ironically, the Gripen's biggest play is the fact that it is a relatively independent choice. Within the government, many believe the Gripen is a safe bet at a good price, and one that (like the F-16), fits in with what the IAF had originally asked for. There also exists a belief within the government that the people at Saab have pioneered and fast-tracked the Demo NG programme principally for the MMRCA programme, and taken this to mean a level of commitment. The IAF has also received and been impressed by independent testimonials from the air forces of Hungary and Czech Republic about turnaround and ownership costs of the Gripen C/D. The IAF is also quite impressed with the Gripen's permutation configuration of systems, sensors and avionics, not to mention a quantum leap in the computer/bus (including Link 16), GCAS, satellite comms, payload capacity and EWS between the Gripen C/D and the Gripen NG. The IAF also likes the very nifty Cobra helmet mounted display system. The Gripen's pitch that it can be turned around on the ground (engine, systems) the fastest among all contenders makes it perfect for the IAF. The Gripen team has also squarely pitched the airplane as the a perfect complement to the "big-hitter" Su-30MKIs, implying that India's growing Flanker fleet could be inadvertently rendered superfluous if the heavy contenders in the MMRCA -- the F/A-18, the Typhoon or the Rafale -- were chosen for induction.

WEAKNESSES

Unfortunately, the Gripen's weaknesses are many. The biggest, I've outlined in the intro. The fact that is provides no strategic fruits is a big downer. The fact that Sweden promises not to interfere, but rather provide full autonomy to the Gripen India programme is simply too little in the Indian context. In fact, there are senior officers in the IAF who believe that Saab flatters itself in the belief that Sweden is powerful enough to fiddle with the strategic/military autonomy of a country like India, especially since the MMRCA provides for a total transfer of technology that very nearly precludes the possibility of any meaningful interference post-contract. Another weakness is the aircraft's country of origin itself. Provided that the Saab proves to be the best aircraft in the field evaluation tests (FETs) -- which it well might -- will any Indian government, let alone the Congress -- have the guts to buy Swedish ever again? If anyone has any doubts about the Bofors ghost, cast a glance at the farcical joke being played in the Indian Army's efforts to purchase 400 towed 155-mm artillery guns. It's been on since 2003, with an unprecedented four trial rounds. The final results laid out that the SWS Bofors gun was on top throughout. At the last moment, then Army chief General JJ Singh gave in to a firm political warning and called for a re-tender of the entire competition. It probably speaks volumes that he's now the politically-appointed Governor of Arunachal Pradesh. A stunned Bofors still hasn't recovered from the shock. Saab, which close links with the Bofors company, knows just what a liability being from Sweden is forever more in India. Worse, there's no sidestepping it. Worse still, even the IAF recognises that. The tragedy is, of course, that the Gripen has absolutely nothing to do with Bofors.


F-16IN Block-70

The handful of IAF pilots who got a chance to fly one of the UAE Block 60 Desert Falcons at Yelahanka in February had fantastic things to say about the aircraft. They were sold on everything from the sidestick to the the phenomenally well-designed bubble canopy, and from the gorgeous low altitude handling characteristics to the add-on IR pod. And this is quite separate from their experience of the aircraft's cockpit avionics. That's something that can scarcely be overstated. Based on my personal discussions with pilots, Defence Ministry officials and others familiar with the aircraft, here's a run down of the F-16's strengths and weaknesses in the current MMRCA competition. Remember, this is an overview of the opinion in establishment circles on the aircraft, and not merely a reiteration of facts already in the public domain.

STRENGTHS

There is simply no denying the F-16's operational record, a statistic completely unmatched by any other fighter plane flying today. The figures speak for themselves: 13 million flight hours, out of which 400,000 hours have been spent in combat. The type has flown over 100,000 combat missions and has been proven to be a true multirole fighter. The type has scored 72 air-to-air kills in the combat missions it has been flown on. This is an aspect that enjoys very serious credence within decision-making circles. The fact that the fighter is owned and operated by 24 nations is another source of reassurance. The air force also views this as a de-risking aspect of any potential purchase. The aircraft comes equipped with an AESA radar (the Northrop Grumman AN/APG-80) that the IAF absolutely adores. The IAF also feels the MIL-STD-1773 data bus on the fighter will be an enormous and valuable legacy leap, and this has been a point of some discussion during internal presentations made on the MMRCA contenders. The aircraft's cockpit ergonomics has the IAF in raptures, including former chief S Krishnaswami, who flew an F-16I during a visit to Israel in 2004, and could barely stop talking about what an amazing cockpit it had. One of the F-16's principal strengths is also its unit price. At under $30-million a piece, the IAF views the F-16 as a highly capable fighter at a highly competitive purchase price. The fact that there have been 52 follow-on buys of the type are considered an indicator to the IAF that ownership/lifecycle costs are also competitive. The IAF doesn't miss the fact that the F-16 is one of only two aircraft in the sweepstakes that fits the original weight specs laid out in the original qualitiative requirement -- QRs which were substantially altered later to allow in heavy fighters. Finally, (and probably most importantly!), the F-16 has the backing of the United States government, the target of India's most ambitious current foreign policy initiatives. Needless to say, anyone who downplays that aspect, is doing so at their peril.

WEAKNESSES

Let's get straight to what the IAF and Defence Ministry don't like at all about the F-16. The fact that there is a steady phase-out/replacement programme underway in the US, despite Lockheed-Martin's repeated insistence that there are four large busy production lines. The fact that the US isn't buying anymore Falcons is enough to put serious doubts into India's mind. Picking up early on this, Lockheed has managed to convincingly drive home the point that the F-16 is the logical bridge to the F-35 Lightning II, though this is viewed by the IAF as too crafty. It's almost a fake pledge, considering the gargantual clearances and procedures that would be necessary for India to be considered a buyer of a fifth generation fighter plane. Lockheed's pitch about the F-35 has therefore backfired in parts. A senior IAF officer, recently retired, says "While we were initially only doubtful, the F-35 pitch proved beyond doubt that Lockheed is trying to squeeze the last few drops out of its F-16 production lines, and the Indian requirement is too mouth-watering for them to ignore." The fact that the aircraft is operated by a lot of other countries, ironically, has a minor backlash effect as well on the IAF -- some of the top brass feel that an ambitious new purchase like the MMRCA contract, should be for a unique and exclusive aircraft, not one that is owned and operated by a huge number of other countries (including Pakistan -- the radar signature debate holds credence, incidentally), even though they do reluctantly agree that under the bonnet, the F-16IN is hardly comparable to previous variants of the same type. Finally, relations with the Obama administration have cooled considerably compared to the phonecall-a-minute diplomacy with Bush Jr, and this itself has somewhat blunted the throbbing needle pointing to Washington, even though the President has made it clear that he plans to keep up the evolving strategic dialogue with India.

F-18IN

The F/A-18E/F/IN Super Hornet is a little gem of an aircraft, except it's hardly little. It's 30% heavier than the legacy Hornet, and its designation was only kept the same to ease the pushing through of the idea to US Congress. In a sense, the Hornet is better known than the F-16 during the Cold War era. It was aircraft carriers stacked to the hilt with Hornets that prowled international waters for decades (and continue to do so with both Hornet and Super Hornets). Many say the Super Hornet is a completely new aircraft, which should have been given a new designation number and a new name, considering just what a different aircraft it is. But the IAF recognises that, not least because Boeing's Super Hornet has also been among the most visible aircraft in the sweepstakes:

STRENGTHS

It was Boeing, remember, that changed the entire complexion of the MMRCA, by "elbowing" (a phrase used by the IAF, but not with acrimony) itself into what was to be a competition for a medium-weight, medium-range fighterplane. It was also Boeing which virtually pulled the rug from under the other contenders by being the first to express its intention to supply an active electronically-scalled array (AESA) radar with its contender -- the highly respected Raytheon APG-79 radar. It was only after the IAF began doggedly pursuing information on the Raytheon radar and export licensing information that the other five contenders jumped onto the bandwagon and began either offering AESA radars, or publicising them in a more emphatic manner. The IAF recognises that unwaveringly, but still gives Boeing credit for changing the game. Among the six competing radars, the IAF has also been most exposed to the capabilities of the APG-79 that comes with the Super Hornet, in simulators and live flights. One IAF pilot who took the front seat in a Super Hornet at Aero India 2007 said he found the airplane's digital flight control system (FCS) to be possibly the most mature and intelligent in the world on a fourth generation aircraft. Many in the IAF are of the opinion that alleviation of pilot workload is something that has been achieved in a dramatic way in the Super Hornet -- its cockpit, one pilot says, is the very definition of convenience, automation and ergonomics. The AN/ASQ-228 advanced targeting forward looking infrared (ATFLIR) targeting pod is considered on par, if not better, than Lockheed-Martin's equivalent on the F-16IN. A lot of folks thought the fact that the Super Hornet is a naval fighter would be a downer, but no -- it has actually translated into its acceptance as a far more rugged, quick reaction fighter, which the Super Hornet undoubtedly is. In demonstration flight debriefs, the IAF has been careful to note that the airplane's short take-off capability with near full combat load is undeniable, as are its handling characteristics at low altitude with the same load. The Super Hornet comes backed by a firm that the government of India has a lot of experience dealing with. The fact that ahead of the F-35C, the US Navy's air arm is being standardised across roles on the Super Hornet platform is a source of great reassurance, for its reputation as the Navy's next "swiss-army knife". Being fairly battle proven despite its freshness off the block is a good thing too.

WEAKNESSES

The Super Hornet is in approximately the same weight class as the Su-30, and is, in every way, a heavy hitter, with all the attendant cross-section and logistics issues. The IAF has expressed apprehensions about the Super Hornet's logistics footprint (and its overall impact on ownership costs), though these have been discussed only internally -- they will be taken up during the foreign leg of the field evaluation tests (FETs). The Super Hornet is a rugged, beast of an airplane no doubt, but there remains a substantial quarter in the IAF which is still hung on the apprehension that it is, ultimately, a maritime strike fighter. "Let's face it. The development of the Super Hornet was with the US Navy in mind. The exports to other country's air forces are simply bonuses. It is a maritime strike fighter, with a maritime role development history behind it. Fielding it as an air force jet is borne from commercial considerations. Both Boeing and Lockheed are trying to maximise profits from the F-18/F-16 production lines before they have to shut shop for the F-35," says one senior IAF pilot, who does not fly anymore. The Indian government has opened its Boeing IDS account with the P-8I Poseidon deal -- the government may be wary of laying it on too thick with one vendor.
 

venom

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Rafale

The Rafale is an intriguing aircraft. Everyone remembers the dramatic way in which Dassault announced in 2006 that it was withdrawing the Mirage-2000-V from the MMRCA competition and instead fielding the the Rafale. It was a surprise move, considering the fact that the IAF had initially simply wanted to buy a whole lot more Mirages as its MMRCA, and was deeply convinced about the capabilities of the Dash-5. Fate (and Dassault) had other plans, it seemed. And with the government, in its wisdom, ordering the IAF to "open up" its qualitative requirements to engender a real competition, Boeing leapt into the fray with the Super Hornet. Almost on cue, the Mirage was withdrawn and the Rafale pitched. There are those who believe this was a seriously bad move, though Dassault unofficially sent across the message that there was no way in hell that it was going to keep its production line warm for the notorious time it was going to take for the Indian government to make its mind up, and also that there was no assurance that the Mirage would be selected finally. And therefore, the Rafale.

STRENGHTS

The Rafale smacks of the intangible "newness" of being a truly contemporary airplane built for today's missions. Conversely, it suffers none of the reputational hazards of being an old souped up platform with tinkering under the bonnet. Pitched as an "omnirole" fighter, the IAF has incrementally been convinced of what this term really means. Pitched as a logical next-step to the Mirage -- which the IAF loves with a passion -- the people at Dassault have managed to pitch well the idea that operating the Rafale will be a progression of the same ownership/operation experience. The pitch that IAF pilots will take to the Rafale more easily than any of the other fighters is something that has managed to be persuasive to an extent. While the Thales RBE2 AESA radar is still its final developmental phase, the IAF has been provided with regular and detailed updates on the radar's capabilities and performance parameters, and one officer, who has been part of the teams that receive these updates on a regular basis, says the IAF had no reason to doubt the laid down capabilities, and was in fact deeply impressed with what the French had managed to achieve in what is a science simply dominated by two American firms. Not just that, Dassault says the Rafale is the only aircraft in its class to be equipped with active arrays for both its radar and electronic warfare suite (EWS). IAF officers have in fact regularly been invited to witness RBE2 prototypes being tested on the Hack -- a Mirage-2000 test bed for the radar since 2003. In April 2008, the Rafale opened its operational account by being deployed to Afghanistan and being flown on 220 active combat missions, involving 730 flight hours. This may be peanuts compared to the operational logs of the Rafale's competition in the MMRCA, but the IAF recognises that this is a new aircraft in a transitory phase of tranche-level modernisation. At Red Flag 2008, IAF pilots got up close with the Rafale. A report on the Rafale was in fact informally submitted to Vayu Bhawan by the team when it returned. TheIAF has been given detailed presentations on the Rafale's multi-sensor data fusion system -- the RBE2 radar, Link 16 data bus, Front Sector Optronic (FSO) and SPECTRA self-defense suite and has been impressed by the ensemble. The Rafale is also considered by the IAF to be possibly the only plane in the sweepstakes with a focused use of composites for stealth and reduced RCS. The Rafale will also come with new, high-capability variants of MBDA missiles that the IAF has operated for decades, and places a lot of value on. Former Navy chief Admiral Arun Prakash, as FOC-in-C Western Naval Command, flew the Rafale during an official visit to Paris. A few other senior officers of the IAF have also had a chance to spin up in the otherwise reclusive Rafale. The sense that Dassault isn't displaying its wares like the other five contenders are, is something that has somehow been looked at as "proper" by some in the Defence Ministry. This is, after all, a serious defence procurement, some say -- "there's no need for so much song and dance at Aero India every year". The Rafale is the only aircraft in the sweepstakes that comes with an explicitly stated nuclear delivery capability. None of the others mentioned it. And the reason I mention this is that some very senior officers in the air force, are wondering why. The Rafale is also among the least familiar of the six jets, at least in the Indian media, simply because Dassault has stayed well away from courting publicity -- this is also looked upon by the IAF/MoD as being representative of a deeper, more valuable quality during a procurement process: discretion. Finally, defence deals with France have always been expensive, but always been excellent professional and operational experiences for the Indian forces. From the Mirages to Alouettes to the Mysteres. No spares problems. No nonsense. The French could also leverage significant political power to push India as the prestigious launch customer of the Rafale, though not quite like the Jaguar's initial years were. A maximum 11 Gs in critical manoeuvers doesn't hurt either.

WEAKNESSES

The albatross around the Rafale remains its relatively unproven stature, and of course, the fact that it hasn't ever been exported. As one of the most expensive (flyaway cost) aircraft in the sweepstakes, it also comes with possibly the largest price-tag in terms of total contract cost, though Dassault has made strenuous efforts to convey to the IAF that its use of Dassault aircraft over time, particularly the Mirage, will significantly erode the total commitment necessary in terms of new infrastructure. Obviously, the IAF isn't buying this -- they're treating the Rafale as any new aircraft type. There are almost no articulated weaknesses in specifications, though the IAF is anxious about an aircraft that has been fielded for a lot of competitions unsuccessfully. Finally, the government has recently awarded France with the huge Scorpene deal. Awarding the MMRCA to France would be politically too much for too little. The leadership of Nicolas Sarkozy doesn't half do what Jacques Chirac's did in its time.


Coming Up - Euro-Fighter Typhoon.
 

Payeng

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check for related threads before posting, an introduction also would be a great idea, I think it is already posted.
 

venom

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It was a bit scattered so i thought of combining all the details for better understanding.............
 

Payeng

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It was a bit scattered so i thought of combining all the details for better understanding.............
These are no information you are providing these are articles written by Shiv Aroor in his blogspot : Livefist, which I think Daredavil has posted in the MRCA thread, this won't be any useful information more than that!
 

venom

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Does any one have any idea about the date of comparative trials....it was supposed to b in july
 

Sridhar

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IAF's MMRCA tender: Pentagon prevents Saab-IAI collaboration
06 July 2009


With field trials for the 126-aircraft Indian Air Force's (IAF) medium range multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) tender due to begin shortly, competition appears to be warming up considerably, though away from Indian shores. It appears that the US administration may have compelled Israel Aerospace Industries Ltd. (IAI) to pull out from a proposed collaboration with Swedish firm Saab Gripen to develop an advanced model of their multi-role JAS-39 fighter.

Gripen JAS 39 fighterThe tender is one of the largest on the global market, expected to be worth around $12 billion, and has attracted entries from European concerns Eurofighter, for the Typhoon, French Dassault, for its Rafale and Saab Gripen for its JAS-39IN. Also participating is Russian design bureau MiG RAC, with the MiG-35 - an enhanced version of the MiG-29.

Two American firms Boeing Co, with its F/A-18 Super Hornet and Lockheed Martin, with its F/A-16IN Fighting Falcon are also in the race.

According to reports in the Israeli media, the Israeli ministry of defence has asked IAI to back out of its deal with the Swedes as the Pentagon has expressed concern that American technology - used by Israel - could also be integrated with the Gripen version on offer to the India.

Reports also suggest that the Pentagon and the Israeli ministry of defence were in discussions for all of 18 months before IAI was asked to withdraw from the tender.

Permission for the collaboration was denied ostensibly on the ground of technology transfer though it is being surmised that the real reason may have been financial. It is felt that the US was concerned that if the IAI competed for the deal along with Saab, it would compel the two US companies in the fray to lower their prices.

IAI has declined to comment on the report.

Industry observers point out that the situation is similar to another one that emerged three years ago, when the IAI participated in a $2 billion South Korean AWACS tender with its Gulfstream G550 AWACS platform, which was cheaper by atleast $700 million, as compared to the competing Boeing 737 platform.

After two years of bargaining, IAI lost out on the tender to Boeing, due to US technological and commercial restrictions, which ensured that IAI failed to meet stipulated terms and conditions for the tender.

domain-b.com : IAF's MMRCA tender: Pentagon prevents Saab-IAI collaboration
 

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