INSAS Rifle, LMG & Carbine

[sayareakd]

.
Here look at the recoil. Remind of elephant gun kick.
.

any idea what he says at the end of the video, it not clear, but he says, " you got great rifle, i told you so"

 

[Screambowl]

Some one said here that recoil depends on the momentum not the kinetic energy.
Thats not fully correct.

The first order derivative of momentum gives you force , which means higher the velocity and change in velocity gives you higher change in kinetic energy which ultimately means higher the recoil.
the forces here are conservative in nature, which means the total energy is also conserved.

So recoil does depend on kinetic energy.

 

[rone]

i think the ofb rifle will be nice what it need is a gud muzzle break and better stock ,some thing i prefer to galil ace , if they plan to remodel try to adpot from fn fal rifle , its very gud, less recoil , and 7.76 nato , only thing it need to chance its reloading mechanism ,other wise modified fn fal is better than even galil ace

 

[rone]

fn fal moded to modern requirements ( version in 10 inch barrel cqb)

 

[Vijyes]

Some one said here that recoil depends on the momentum not the kinetic energy.
Thats not fully correct.

The first order derivative of momentum gives you force , which means higher the velocity and change in velocity gives you higher change in kinetic energy which ultimately means higher the recoil.
the forces here are conservative in nature, which means the total energy is also conserved.

So recoil does depend on kinetic energy.

It was I who said that. Yes, I know that energy is conserved. But momentum and energy are interlinked. As you told, momentum is the first derivative of kinetic energy.

Kinetic Energy (E) = 0.5M(V^2)
(d/dv)E = 0.5M(2V) = MV = Momentum (P)

But, there is a big difference in the two. 2 objects with same kinetic energy need not have same momentum. For example, if M1=1, V1=4, E1 = 8 and P1 = 4. But if M2 =4 and V2=2, E2 = 8 and P2=8. So, as mass of bullet rises, for the same kinetic energy, momentum of the bullet with higher mass will be higher.

Also, since the same charge has to impart kinetic energy of the recoil as well as the bullet, for bullet of higher mass, the transfer of energy from the charge to bullet will be lower.

Taking the above 2 cases as example and considering mass of gun as 100, Momentum of gun will be Pg1=4 and Pg2=8. The velocity of the recoil will be 0.04m/s and 0.08m/s respectively. So, kinetic energy of the gun will be Eg1 = 0.5x100x0.04x0.04 = 0.08 and Eg2 = 0.05x100x0.08x0.08 = 0.32. So, the ratio of energy of bullet to gun is R1= 8/0.08 = 100 and R2 = 8/0.32 = 25

The wastage of energy from the charge is 1% for the first case while it is 4% for 2nd case. Similarly, for any case, the wastage of energy is higher for bullet with higher mass and hence recoil is higher for bullet of higher mass, even if amount of charge is same in the bullets.

Recoil is directly dependent on momentum and not kinetic energy, though momentum and kinetic energy are also linked to each other

 

[Vijyes]

Recoil is a big factor and it is necessary to have a higher chance of hitting than to have a lower chance of hitting with a higher damage per hit. In any standoffs/counter insurgency operations, cross border firing etc, the number of bullets fired per casualty is generally in 3 digits. So, decreasing chances of hitting due to either recoil or poor range will decrease chances of taking the enemy down. Better to hit with smaller damage than hope to hit a bigger round.

By the way, does anyone have any idea as to why iron bullets are not used instead of lead bullets to increase penetration without increasing weight significantly? Isn't iron bullet with coper jacket (to prevent rusting) better than lead bullet for range, penetration as well as cost? They are big in size to cause bigger damage but lighter to have enough range and velocity from lesser charge

 

[Rahul Singh]

any idea what he says at the end of the video, it not clear, but he says, " you got great rifle, i told you so"

"I told you so" is clear but I can't make out if he said, "you got a great rifle".

 

[Zero-Sum-Game]

I have a little knowledge and I am aware that even this little knowledge might be fallible. Regarding the issue of the lead bullets I have a few points which must be highlighted .
. Lead is a low melting, high density metal.
.according to periodic table it falls in the category of metals such as Ag Au Hg etc
.lead is generally used when the muzzle velocity of the bullet is less than 1500 ft/sec and any above the bullet will melt due to friction.
. To compensate this, in case of rifles where muzzle Velocity is greater than 1500ft/sec full metal jacket cartridge is used where the lead bullet is enclosed in another metal such as copper etc.
. Lead expands in the barrel and gets good grip on the riflings , hence better performance in ballistics.
.there has been a lot of research in designing the new bullets . Recently a new whole copper round was introduced in us military services. It has some inherent design differences with FMJs but with equivalent performance. However, these are extremely expensive as copper is more expensive than lead. Similarly,silver and gold are also ruled out though they are better in performance due to their excellent thermal conductivity.
. Steel bullets are also used extensively as steel tipped bullets are used as penetrator. Steel penetrator rod bullets are also extensively. These are more of specialist bullets.
.lastly when you are going for derivative of energy especially k.e. with respect to time we need to apply chain rule.
d(1/2mv^2)/dt= 1/2md(v^2)/dt= 1/2m2.v( dv/dt) = mva
dv/dt=a= acceleration...
As rate of change of velocity is acceleration.

 

[sayareakd]

"I told you so" is clear but I can't make out if he said, "you got a great rifle".

Iska rekoil kafi hai.....

 

[Screambowl]

Recoil is directly dependent on momentum and not kinetic energy, though momentum and kinetic energy are also linked to each other

what you have said is correct, but i's a very basic statement.

recoil depends on many factors. reaction force, potential of charge, the momentum and mass of bullet, muzzle energy, etc .
a high PE charge will produce higher recoil even if the mass of bullet is less or mass of gun is less.
Because it acceleration will be greater. And greater the acceleration , higher the velocity so the reaction force is great and so the Momentum.

Recoil is necessary channelized reaction force to stop the barrel moving in other directions but just backward and absorb the energy. Otherwise the gun would break in 10 rounds.

By the way, does anyone have any idea as to why iron bullets are not used instead of lead bullets to increase penetration without increasing weight significantly?

lead has greater density than iron more over the impact energy per unit area is higher than of irons

 

[Kunal Biswas]

ARDE UBGL on AK, The first pic is the latest ..

 

[Vinod DX9]

The Big Fat Indian INSAS Jhamela : An Unbiased Opinion

We all know what the INSAS rifle is , some know it in a negative way , some in a positive way ; some just know about the constant need to replace it ; others try to delve deep into the details of this ambitious project. Considering so many factors in mind , lets try to form an Unbiased Opinion on this rifle , leaving aside the requirements for replacement.
Here , we'll take a look at the Standard issue INSAS rifle for the regular Jawan. There are variants such as the one with a folding stock which we shall mention but not the INSAS LMG ( to be discussed in some other post) or the subsequent variants such as the Excalibur, Amogh and Kalantak.

Before we give an opinion on the matter, it's important to lay down some cold hard facts for some of you who may not be completely aware of what the INSAS is , sure you must have a general idea of the rifle but to really understand it we must delve into the technical details. Going over them one by one again and giving an honest opinion on each factor of the rifle.
INSAS, is the short form of Indian New Small Arms System. The INSAS family has two variants, an Assault Rifle and a Light Machine Gun. The INSAS rifles are the standard weapons for the Army and the Central Armed Police Forces of India.

The INSAS assault rifle , is chambered in 5.56×45mm NATO standard ammunition. The ammunition has a Muzzle velocity of 900 m/s. The overall gun lengh is 960mm/ 96cm/ 0.96m. The weight of the rifle is 4.15kg. The effective range of the gun is stated as 400m. The gun is prescribed a magazine capacity of 20 rounds. The rate of fire of the rifle is 600-650 rounds per minute. It has a recoil energy of 4.43 Joules and has a rifling in the barrel of 6 grooves ( right handed) . It has post-and-aperture type iron sights as standard. The standard rifle fires in Single shot and Three Round Burst mode. Another version was also created with an additional Automatic mode.

Now that we have all the technical formalities out of the way , let's go over the INSAS rifle in earnest. For anyone who has handled the Rifle and fired it , there are two factors which come up instantly , the first being the weight. For a modern assault rifle , 4.15 kgs is not a good number. The next thing which hits you is the inconsistency in quality of the materials used for the rifle. Some rifles "feel right" and some don't , its hard to describe but you realize the difference in quality between each gun after you pull the trigger on them. We can say the INSAS rifle is kind of like the Government , sometimes it works sometimes not , but it's average.
The rifle for me , is quite aesthetically pleasing to look at but only when the furniture is in Black color , not the leaf brown color which I personally think is a disater. The furniture color for the leaf brown ones are modded up by the Army by just causally painting them black or in Black enamel , jungle camo and even in desert camo.

Some may say the rifle is ugly but it all depends on personal tastes. Honestly, the rifle utilises some very dependable mechanisms and designs from legendary firearms , the rifle would be a class apart if only it was made of good materials and construction techniques. Here are some of the Design features that I think are overlooked :

1. The dependable long stroke gas piston system used on the AK family

2. The multi purpose barrel with a good flash suppressor, bayonet lug and an attachment for Rifle Grenades

3. Charging handle ( cocking handle) derived from that of the HK33.

4. Trigger group similar to that of the AK family

5. Tinted poly carbonate magazines derived from the Steyr AUG

6. The aperture-and-post type sights along with the general layout similar to that of a FNC.

7. Easy to reach safety lever and fire selector.

Despite all the good design adaptations, the rifle is not well suited for left handed shooters, as the charging handle is up front on the left side , far from easy reach and the shooter may experience some hot brass bullet casings hit his face or shoulder sometimes.

A word about the weight issue of the gun , it's directly linked to the poor to average use of materials for construction and the crude use of the stamped parts of the receivers ( gun bodies) that accounts for the weight issue. Here too, quality of materials is key for a lightweight rifle.
Coming onto the ammunition it fires, the INSAS has taken a lot of heat for allegedly firing "less powerful" ammunition than the AK's 7.62×39mm , in my honest opinion this is all a bunch of unnecessary hulla-baloo. The 5.56×45mm ammunition is as good as if not better than 7.62×39mm , with greater penetration and range than the AK's bullets. A wave of sensationalism spreads fast among men and many tend to disregard good things quickly , there is a reason why the whole world converted from using bulky 7.62×51mm bullets like on the SLR to the standard 5.56×45mm , even the Russians use 5.56×39mm ammunition in their AK-74s.

More on this ammunition jhamela later , back to facts , it has a velocity of 900 m/s which is good enough and pretty standard. I'd like to point out that there are inconsistencies in the quality of cartidges provided by OFB as well , which sometimes lead to jamming, misfires , failure to eject or even failure to feed. This, again , doesn't happen to everyone , but I'm just saying that it does happen sometimes.
The length of the weapon at 960mm is easy to handle if you're above 5 feet 6 inches otherwise you do spend a while fumbling to put the gun to shoulder. The rifle is not the best for Close Quarter Battle but is surely better than an SLR. The length of the gun and the lack of a folding stock on most models means it's uncomfortable to get in and out of cramped interiors of vehicles like the Gypsy and the BMPs. The folding stock feature on some rifles offers respite for troops in the Mechanised Infantry but these variants are not widely seen.
A point to note is the the sling attachments on the rifle are bad , whether its slung over the shoulder or across the chest, the rifle keeps rattling along the sling attachment making it very irritating to walk with.

The magazine capacity of the rifle is 20 rounds , but the 30 round magazine can also be used without any problem. The slightly tinted transparent poly carbonate magazines have quality ranging from Nilkamal plastic to Good magazines fit for a Steyr AUG , this ofcourse is my own experience. Im just highlighting the inconsistencies available in the INSAS arsenal.
The barrels are chrome plated for long life against wear and tear and the bayonet can also be used for cutting barbed wire and as an entrenching tool.

The flash suppressor is good and the ability to launch rifle grenades by easily adjusting the gas piston is a useful feature along with the ability to mount a 40mm Grenade Launcher , increasing the modularity of the rifle.
The rifles are equipped with a simple mounting rail for attachment of Holographic sights , Telescopic sights and a Passive Night sight which always comes in handy , the mounting point is well balanced .

The standard iron sights of the rifle are also good with a clear picture of the target and a flippable aperture for both long range and short range. They are easy to re-acquire targets with .
The standard rifle is cited to use three round burst mode along with semi automatic but most jawans tend to use the semi automatic mode only as the three round burst mode doesn't always work due to the inconsistencies in construction, so it's better to play it safe and keep up the accurate semi automatic shots rather than deal with a jam.

Coming on to firing the gun , the trigger of the rifle feels crisp and breaks in a single motion but on some guns it did feel sticky when released but nothing too serious . The recoil force of 4.43 joules is easy to control and does not throw your aim off target if you're holding it correctly , this control is easy to keep even when firing in 3 round burst or even fully automatic.

The fully automatic mode of the INSAS is easy to control and has a decent rate of fire of 600 rounds per minute.
Before firing , the gun was cleaned and greased as per procedure, the rifle is easy to assemble and field strip and maintain. Regular drills allow the jawans to field strip the weapon blindfolded. Another point to be noted is, if your gun isn't clean, no matter who the manufacturer is, it will jam and cause you problems , there is a reason for so many drills in the Army, to have the habit of getting things done right become natural.
The Charging handle is easy to use and easy to cock the gun, but the grip becomes slippery for people with sweaty hands.

The carry handle on the gun is a funny little feature inspired by the SLR and considering the weight of the weapon as compared to other assault rifles, is a welcome feature easing the job of lugging it around.
The accuracy of the gun is average but is kind of impressive considering the inconsistent quality of cartidges provided by OFB , in a fire test of 10 rounds at a target with a Telescopic sight at 100m , the group of the shots on target was, a dispersion of 2.5 to 3 inches circle, which is pretty average.

The rifle however lacks a bolt-open feature as present in weapons like the AK family and the M-16 family . The bolt-open feature means that when the gun is empty of cartridges, the Bolt of the gun snaps open does not close with the rest of the receiver , this makes reloading faster as one can just change the magazine and release the bolt with one flick of a lever easily cocking it , instead of loading the magazine and then losing your aim just to reach the charging handle and cock the gun. This feature also clearly tells the soldier that his gun is empty and needs a new magazine.

The lack of mounting picatinny rails on top of the receiver and along the front grips is a definite downside for the gun. Picatinny rails allow for attachment of multiple optic sights, which can be used as and when the mission requires and also , they hold some ergonomic features like vertical grips and bipods , they also hold utilities such as flashlights which otherwise would have to be held by the soldier himself taking his hand off the rifle.

In conclusion , that kind of covers all the aspects of the rifle , I should however highlight again that there are inconsistencies in quality of the rifles , so everyone is free to have their own opinion about them , but I tried to be neutral and give credit where credit is deserved and bash when it's obviously bad. The matter about the INSAS replacement scandal is another story altogether which we shall take up later.
All in all , I think the INSAS rifle is an Average gun in all aspects except for the weight and definitely not average for the dependable quality factors as stated . But the jawans make do with what they have and there have been no severe problems with the rifle that can't be fixed by the jawan with a tool kit and a good cleaning. The INSAS was an ambitious project and could have achieved great milestones for OFB had the rifle not ruined its reputation due to the design and construction flaws and also in the Kargil War , no matter how much OFB improves the quality of the rifle , it's reputation is dead and so are it's hopes of carrying on service. A replacement for the rifle is highly needed , which is ergonomic and makes the men who see it fill with confidence instead of doubt.
We may just get an answer by this year's end.

Guest Article
#INDRA

 

[WolfPack86]

Director General of Infantry , Lt Gen YK Joshi firing the new 7.62mm*51mm assault rifle during trials . According to sources , the rifle has met all the expectations . Joshi sir was surprised with its accuracy . He mentioned that the gun is par with global guns in term of technology . Any global guns of this capability would cost 1lakh per piece but here it would cost 50,000 only . The 4kg rifle has a range of 500 meters and will soon be offered to Infantry school in Mhow . — with Fahad Muslimveetil.

https://www.facebook.com/pg/IndianDefenceAtItsBest/photos/?ref=page_internal

 

[Vinod DX9]

But isn't that rifle turned down?

 

[Kunal Biswas]

It seems BEL red dot is being issued to RR in mass ..

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Holographic Weapon Sight is suitable for small arms / weapons like INSAS Rifle / LMG / Assault Rifle / Rifle AK-47 and various other CQB arms. It is helpful for aligning the targets with precision, speed and highest aiming accuracy. It helps in enhancing the response time of weaponry. It is passive in nature and addressed with both eyes open, which helps in increased peripheral vision for an unlimited eye-relief and parallax free image. This parallax free image is created with a large and bright aiming reticle pattern allowing quick target acquisition particularly in close quarter combat situations.

Source : http://www.bel-india.com/Products.aspx?MId=13&LId=1&link=67

===============

Read few pages behind, The GSQR was not even prepared and all rifles presented were for only demonstrations purpose much like TDs ..

But isn't that rifle turned down?

 

[ezsasa]

It seems BEL red dot is being issued to RR in mass ..

=============================

Source : http://www.bel-india.com/Products.aspx?MId=13&LId=1&link=67

===============

Read few pages behind, The GSQR was not even prepared and all rifles presented were for only demonstrations purpose much like TDs ..

The earpiece in the third photo looks similar to the one paras were wearing in the recent episode of "patriot" programme on republic TV. maybe there is standardisation here too.

 

[Project Dharma]

Why is the CRPF jawan on the right wearing sneakers? And not combat boots? There is no protection from glass or splinters in those sneakers.

 

[Kchontha]

Director General of Infantry , Lt Gen YK Joshi firing the new 7.62mm*51mm assault rifle during trials . According to sources , the rifle has met all the expectations . Joshi sir was surprised with its accuracy . He mentioned that the gun is par with global guns in term of technology . Any global guns of this capability would cost 1lakh per piece but here it would cost 50,000 only . The 4kg rifle has a range of 500 meters and will soon be offered to Infantry school in Mhow . — with Fahad Muslimveetil.

https://www.facebook.com/pg/IndianDefenceAtItsBest/photos/?ref=page_internal

This gun will be a greatly practicable battle rifle for the regular indian Infantry soldiers. IMHO this will be simply great in Indian condition. This will be a class of a rifle in its own and will excell other rifle available at present of its class in terms of accuracy since it retains some of the insas features. What it requires at present is a newly designed and lighter magazine other then old slr magazine. And should also be compatible with granade launcher.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

I think a better muzzle breaker is needed, besides a new designed magazine ..

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Published on Mar 19, 2017
Exhibition of India Defence Equipment-
Ordnance Factories, Kanpur
Celebrated Ordnance Factories Day on 18 March 2017

1. Anmol Revolver
2. Nirbhik Revolver (Light Weight for women)
3.Mag Amogh
4.Carbine Sub Machine Gun
5.Machine Gun
6.Pinaka Indigenous Missile

a lot of more