Chinese Regional Jets & Airliners

SexyChineseLady

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A Japanese view on the irony of decoupling between China and the US. Important topic in Japan (and Korea) about Japanese firms being impacted by the trade war led by the US.

IMG_9529.jpeg
 

rockdog

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A Japanese view on the irony of decoupling between China and the US. Important topic in Japan (and Korea) about Japanese firms being impacted by the trade war led by the US.

View attachment 212329
There is already a specific term:

Psychological Decoupling

Which means everyone is still in some way connected in the name of decoupling, just to make politicians happy.
 

SexyChineseLady

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An example of the growing business that surrounds establishments like the Tianjin Airbus plant:

IMG_9534.jpeg



Tianjin Haite was established in 2009, focusing on B737NG series and A320 family heavy maintenance, modification, and other maintenance business, and is the only domestic MRO that possesses CAAC and FAA approvals on B737-700 and B737-800 BDSF passenger to cargo conversion capabilities. At present, Tianjin Haite has completed 11 B737NG cargo conversion project to various domestic and foreign freighter companies, and has received good feedback from customers.
 

SexyChineseLady

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An example of the growing business that surrounds establishments like the Tianjin Airbus plant:

View attachment 212447


Tianjin Haite was established in 2009, focusing on B737NG series and A320 family heavy maintenance, modification, and other maintenance business, and is the only domestic MRO that possesses CAAC and FAA approvals on B737-700 and B737-800 BDSF passenger to cargo conversion capabilities. At present, Tianjin Haite has completed 11 B737NG cargo conversion project to various domestic and foreign freighter companies, and has received good feedback from customers.
In a similar vein with Embraer:

Embraer will open an E-Jet passenger-to-freighter conversion line in China, its first outside of Brazil, in cooperation with Lanzhou Aviation Industry Development Group. A letter of agreement, revealed at the Paris Airshow on Wednesday, will see Lanzhou Aviation Industry Development Group convert 20 used E190 and E195 passenger jets to freighters during the first phase. The first example will undergo conversion at Embraer’s facility in Sao Jose dos Campos, Brazil. Lanzhou Aviation Industry Development Group will start the conversions once the Brazilian aviation safety authorities and China have signed off on the certification of the E190F and E195F.
 

SexyChineseLady

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The A220, though not sold in China yet, has a lot of Chinese components already:


Initially designed by Bombardier, the aircraft line was bought over by Airbus and has since had 15 Chinese suppliers contributing to the manufacturing process.
...
Among all Airbus aircraft models, the A220 boasts the highest number of Chinese elements, from providing raw materials and components to assembling big parts.
 

rockdog

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In a similar vein with Embraer:

Embraer will open an E-Jet passenger-to-freighter conversion line in China, its first outside of Brazil, in cooperation with Lanzhou Aviation Industry Development Group. A letter of agreement, revealed at the Paris Airshow on Wednesday, will see Lanzhou Aviation Industry Development Group convert 20 used E190 and E195 passenger jets to freighters during the first phase. The first example will undergo conversion at Embraer’s facility in Sao Jose dos Campos, Brazil. Lanzhou Aviation Industry Development Group will start the conversions once the Brazilian aviation safety authorities and China have signed off on the certification of the E190F and E195F.
The cooperation between China and Brazil will be quite promising! trade between 1.4B and 200M nations will be a new growth engine!

Brazilian President Lula travels to China with hopes for trade and peace

In China, Lula Seeks Help Building Back Brazilian Industry

Brazil's Embraer eyes deal with Chinese airline for 20 E-jets -sources
 

SexyChineseLady

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For a moment I thought Cebu Pacific opted for a COMAC C-919. What a disappointment ?! Hopefully it'd happen by the end of the decade . Nothing would spook the gwailou more.
In the next 10 years, COMAC would be lucky to have enough capacity to finish up the current 1200 domestic orders ;)
 

SexyChineseLady

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You mean COMAC isn't setting up Gigafactories ? Or alternate assembly lines in say Indonesia ? Why , I'm shocked !! Is COMAC not upto the task? This is tacit admission of defeat . @RoaringTigerHiddenDragon
Yes, China civil airliner industry is not as advanced as its autos one ;)

China delivered 34 ARJ-21s in 2022. This is six years after certification for mass production in 2017. Around 105 delivered so far against over 600 orders on backlog. So yes, these things will take time.

China did deliver two ARJ-21s to Indonesia so perhaps there will be token deliveries of C919 overseas as well :)
 

Azaad

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Yes, China civil airliner industry is not as advanced as its autos one ;)

China delivered 34 ARJ-21s in 2022. This is six years after certification for mass production in 2017. Around 105 delivered so far against over 600 orders on backlog. So yes, these things will take time.

China did deliver two ARJ-21s to Indonesia so perhaps there will be token deliveries of C919 as well :)
Which is why I suggested an independent line in Indonesia . They could service requirements in Indonesia , ASEAN & the rest of Asia , perhaps Africa & Latin America beginning with Brazil. Besides if something goes wrong you can ALWAYS blame the Indonesians. 😉
 

SexyChineseLady

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Which is why I suggested an independent line in Indonesia . They could service requirements in Indonesia , ASEAN & the rest of Asia , perhaps Africa & Latin America beginning with Brazil. Besides if something goes wrong you can ALWAYS blame the Indonesians. 😉
Maybe in the future! The closest thing China has to foreign lines for aircraft are the ones for the JF-17 in Pakistan and the K-8 in Egypt. Long ways off from airliners. Except for China and Brazil no other global south country has the work force or even inclination to develop an airliner assembly line.
 

Azaad

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Maybe in the future! The closest thing China has to foreign lines for aircraft are the ones for the JF-17 in Pakistan and the K-8 in Egypt. Long ways off from airliners. Except for China and Brazil no other global south country has the work force or even inclination to develop an airliner assembly line.
Which is why EMBRAER seems to be desperately chasing HAL for a JV to mfg MTA's for the IAF when all they should be doing is mfg these Planes in China & fly them to India since as per you no other Global South Country has the work force or the inclination to develop an airliner


Silly guys , these Brazilians !!


 

SexyChineseLady

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Which is why EMBRAER seems to be desperately chasing HAL for a JV to mfg MTA's for the IAF when all they should be doing is mfg these Planes in China & fly them to India since as per you no other Global South Country has the work force or the inclination to develop an airliner


Silly guys , these Brazilians !!


Are Brazilians successful yet? If they are then there is inclination. If not then there might not be one. We are talking regional jets and narrow bodies :)
 

Azaad

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Are Brazilians successful yet? If they are then there is inclination. If not then there might not be one. We are talking regional jets and narrow bodies :)
If the Brazilians aren't successful in developing their civil & executive planes yet , what's a Chinese company doing forming a JV with EMBRAER ? We're talking civilian planes. For Brazil to get into narrow bodies & regional / intercontinental jets they have to have that kind of domestic market to sustain such business & then scale it up . Then comes the issue of finance , technology , marketing , global clout etc.

I think @MiG-29SMT has written plenty of posts on this phenomenon about why technology is not a barrier for groups like EMBRAER in developing such jets which countries like China & India can easily address. Perhaps you ought to read them.
 

SexyChineseLady

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If the Brazilians aren't successful in developing their civil & executive planes yet , what's a Chinese company doing forming a JV with EMBRAER ? We're talking civilian planes. For Brazil to get into narrow bodies & regional / intercontinental jets they have to have that kind of domestic market to sustain such business & then scale it up . Then comes the issue of finance , technology , marketing , global clout etc.

I think @MiG-29SMT has written plenty of posts on this phenomenon about why technology is not a barrier for groups like EMBRAER in developing such jets which countries like China & India can easily address. Perhaps you ought to read them.
The Brazilians are successful in developing an airliner of course!

What I asked is are they successful in getting the partnership and putting in an airliner assembly line in India that you brought up as counterpoint to my point that only Brazil and China has really shown the work force or even inclination to build airliners (which means regional, narrow- and wide-bodies not military transports)? :)
 

Azaad

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The Brazilians are successful in developing an airliner of course!

What I asked is are they successful in getting the partnership and putting in an airliner assembly line in India that you brought up as counterpoint to my point that only Brazil and China has really shown the work force or even inclination to build airliners (which means regional, narrow- and wide-bodies not military transports)? :)
Frankly I don't think you read whatever I've linked & if you do , whether you fully comprehended whatever I've linked or posted.

To repeat myself & sum up what I've linked , right now they've offered a JV with HAL for IAF's forthcoming requirement of a Medium Transport Aircraft ( MTA) with a carrying capacity between ~25-35 Tons IIRC in response to an RFI - Request For Information issued by the Ministry of Defence (MoD) on behalf of the IAF. There are other contenders for the same requirement from Japan to Ukraine to Russia to Europe to the US.

Previously the idea within the government was to develop an MTA for the IAF with a Regional Transport Aircraft ( RTA) derivative to serve as it's civilian counterpart. Towards that end we signed an MoU with Russia nearly 2 decades ago which didn't go anywhere due to mutual disagreements & finally co operation was terminated. Since then the project has meandered along to reach where it has today.

As of now both the requirements have been separated from each other with a local government organisation the civilian National Aeronautics Laboratory ( NAL) submitting an offer to the GoI earlier this year , seeking a budget of 1 billion USD or thereabouts to develop a 90 seater turboprop all on its own .

I'm under the impression we ought to have a JV with EMBRAER as part of a Public Private Partnership model with a private sector firm with the aim of eventually getting a majority stake in EMBRAER for access to their entire portfolio of products so that we don't have to reinvent the wheel. Frankly it doesn't seem as though the government is seeing things the way I am . Just my 2 cents.

As of now that's where things stand.

Moreover didn't you read my post on why & how EMBRAER wasn't into regional wide or narrow bodied aircraft & the reasoning provided including explanations by @MiG-29SMT on multiple occasions. Refer to his posts of the past . In other words , kindly time travel.
 

KurtisBrian

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The Brazilians are successful in developing an airliner of course!

What I asked is are they successful in getting the partnership and putting in an airliner assembly line in India that you brought up as counterpoint to my point that only Brazil and China has really shown the work force or even inclination to build airliners (which means regional, narrow- and wide-bodies not military transports)? :)
Embraer...created as a wholly-owned gov't corporation. "Privatized" in 1994 to avoid bankruptcy, yet gov't maintained veto power via golden shares.


Profit seeking? not how gov'ts behave.
Free market? not when gov't is in control.

Does the gov't have any control now? How much gov't funding went in to "create" Embraer jets?
 

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