Future Infantry Combat Vehicle (FICV)

[karn]

Re: India May Restart Vehicle Program

double post

 

[jouni]

Re: India May Restart Vehicle Program

Wow you can decipher the capability of a vehicle just by looking at it . You are truely gifted.

If it looks good, it usually is. Think of Panzer V Tiger, T-34, Spitfire all great. Then think like shitty British tanks like the Comet. Looks bad, was bad. Just to mention a few. You are an emerging nation, aim to the top do not settle to mediocre.

Imagine if Patria and Tata vehicle were on trade fair side by side, which one would you get? So make a bid for a share of Patria and get the latest knowhow.

 

[karn]

Re: India May Restart Vehicle Program

If it looks good, it usually is. Think of Panzer V Tiger, T-34, Spitfire all great. Then think like shitty British tanks like the Comet. Looks bad, was bad. Just to mention a few. You are an emerging nation, aim to the top do not settle to mediocre.

Imagine if Patria and Tata vehicle were on trade fair side by side, which one would you get? So make a bid for a share of Patria and get the latest knowhow.

The 2 look almost exactly the same. And have exactly the same capabilities and upgrade potential . Perhaps anything made outside Europe automatically looks bad in your eyes . But still at 2million Euros a unit for Patria Id go for the TATA offer .
The Tiger looks like a giant grey box and was a terrible tank .. You might be on to something .
The t34 was an interim suboptimal design that was pushed to full production due to the invasion .
Or have I misunderstood everything and are we talking about the paint .

 

[jouni]

Re: India May Restart Vehicle Program

The 2 look almost exactly the same. And have exactly the same capabilities and upgrade potential . Perhaps anything made outside Europe automatically looks bad in your eyes . But still at 2million Euros a unit for Patria Id go for the TATA offer .
The Tiger looks like a giant grey box and was a terrible tank .. You might be on to something .
The t34 was an interim suboptimal design that was pushed to full production due to the invasion .
Or have I misunderstood everything and are we talking about the paint .

Tiger was epitome of German design, very proportional, very sophisticated. Maybe over engineered. It could take ten t-34 before knocked out. It represents German approach to design.

T-34 simple and genius. Sloped armor, wide tracks and 60000 units built, compared to 1500 Tigers. Example of Russian design philosophy.

Normally design actually saves costs. This is a great documentary of the subject.

[video]http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_0z1kvM6ns[/video]

 

[jouni]

Re: India May Restart Vehicle Program

The 2 look almost exactly the same. And have exactly the same capabilities and upgrade potential . Perhaps anything made outside Europe automatically looks bad in your eyes . But still at 2million Euros a unit for Patria Id go for the TATA offer .
The Tiger looks like a giant grey box and was a terrible tank .. You might be on to something .
The t34 was an interim suboptimal design that was pushed to full production due to the invasion .
Or have I misunderstood everything and are we talking about the paint .

Tiger was epitome of German design, very proportional, very sophisticated. Maybe over engineered. It could take ten t-34 before knocked out. It represents German approach to design.

T-34 simple and genius. Sloped armor, wide tracks and 60000 units built, compared to 1500 Tigers. Example of Russian design philosophy.

Normally design actually saves costs. This is a great documentary of the subject.

[video]http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_0z1kvM6ns[/video]

 

[karn]

Re: India May Restart Vehicle Program

Tiger was epitome of German design, very proportional, very sophisticated. Maybe over engineered. It could take ten t-34 before knocked out. It represents German approach to design.

T-34 simple and genius. Sloped armor, wide tracks and 60000 units built, compared to 1500 Tigers. Example of Russian design philosophy.

Normally design actually saves costs. This is a great documentary of the subject.

[video]http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_0z1kvM6ns[/video]

If you could point out differences between Kestrel and Patria .. That would be great .
But if you want to go offtopic sure .
The tiger cost as much as 3 fighter aircraft that alone disqualifies it in the minds of all sane people .But then Hitler was anything but sane .
The Germans built 1500 tigers yet the soviets built 4000 IS 2 tanks(which were vastly superior) . The soviets were simply better at mass production (as they adopted american methods and improved on them). that alone shows how little of an impact they had on overall fighting and were mostly used for propaganda .
Studies show that 11% of all tanks kills were by other tanks more tanks were lost to mines . The main task of tanks is to support infantry . The humble Stug was the epitome German design . It was what carried most of the fighting . The cost of building such expensive tanks diverted resources from building actual useful tanks . While Soviet and American soldiers could always count on a company of t34s or shermans to show up and give support the average german soldier was lucky to get a few stugs for support . The glorified SS division with the tigers could not be everywhere however as they were usually broken down a few kilometers from the fighting.The problem was so great the tiger and the panther had to be moved by rail for distances as small as 25 kilometers to avoid breakdowns .
Think about it for a while the KV tank was similar to the tiger in 1941 as in none of the German weapons could harm it. A single KV held up a full german division for 2days . Yet it was deemed a bad design . The same can be said about the french Char b1 That also caused so many problems for german soldiers .
The t34 was an interim design . It had sloped side armour which was deemed unecessary by the soviet commanders as it reduced internal volume and put protection where it was not needed (notice no soviet tank after t 34 uses sloped side armour). The christie suspension was also considered very poor and used up too much internal space and was hard to repair , torsion bar being a far better choice (notice all tanks after t 34 use torsion bar ). These were to be addressed in A43/T34M but the pressure on the invasion was too great and the t34 was pushed into service .

 

[jouni]

I think Germans operated tanks independently for breakthroughs, Stugs were meant to infantry support.

Germans were holistic on fine tuning their designs, bad approach for war. In any case a lot of stuff we use today was based on German design. Like space programs for starter. Did you know that in Germany are 3000 small companies that are in top three of their field in the world. Their industrial base is superior.

How many countries has bought Kestrel outside India?

Here is a clip were Finns use captured KVs against their old owners.

[video]http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=SbOLHzMA78g[/video]

 

[jouni]

Patria case - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Patria has David-Goliath fight against US General Dynamics.

 

[pmaitra]

I think Germans operated tanks independently for breakthroughs, Stugs were meant to infantry support.

Germans were holistic on fine tuning their designs, bad approach for war. In any case a lot of stuff we use today was based on German design. Like space programs for starter. Did you know that in Germany are 3000 small companies that are in top three of their field in the world. Their industrial base is superior.

German tanks were "superior" on paper, but in practise, were disappointing.

The Germans are smart. They realized the superiority of Soviet designs after 1941, and tried to adopt the design features of the T-34.

 

[karn]

I think Germans operated tanks independently for breakthroughs, Stugs were meant to infantry support.

Germans were holistic on fine tuning their designs, bad approach for war. In any case a lot of stuff we use today was based on German design. Like space programs for starter. Did you know that in Germany are 3000 small companies that are in top three of their field in the world. Their industrial base is superior.

How many countries has bought Kestrel outside India?

Here is a clip were Finns use captured KVs against their old owners.

[video]http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=SbOLHzMA78g[/video]

So tigers were just like Kv and IS heavy tanks .
Could you give me source on the prowess of the German industry . Not articles but studies with numbers . German industry is admired but 3000 is a very specific number .
Kestrel is still in trials . The question was India tying up with Finland for a battle taxi. Illusive was merely pointing out that there is no need .
With the new governments policy of pushing weapon exports (as opposed to banning them outright) we may see a few exports . Unless the new armata is so awesome that everyones mind melts after seeing it at it on the victory day parade.

 

[jouni]

So tigers were just like Kv and IS heavy tanks .
Could you give me source on the prowess of the German industry . Not articles but studies with numbers . German industry is admired but 3000 is a very specific number .
Kestrel is still in trials . The question was India tying up with Finland for a battle taxi. Illusive was merely pointing out that there is no need .
With the new governments policy of pushing weapon exports (as opposed to banning them outright) we may see a few exports . Unless the new armata is so awesome that everyones mind melts after seeing it at it on the victory day parade.

https://www.google.fi/url?sa=t&sour...QQFjAJ&usg=AFQjCNHLj8kGgbhjkhFTabvJTeAbXm_UOA
http://www.handelsblatt.com/unterne...der-hidden-champions-geht-weiter/9940450.html

Sorry, it was 1300 out of those 3000 were German.

 

[Zebra]

A classic
2S9 Nona - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Need moar dakka . Have moar dakka
2S25 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Sir, you are also a Russian fanboy ?

 

[Zebra]

Re: India May Restart Vehicle Program

If you could point out differences between Kestrel and Patria .. That would be great .

Not sure about Tata Kestrel, I hope it will be one of the best AMV.

But I can post a link for Patria AMV........Patria AMV - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It says.....

During the summer of 2013, the Havoc successfully completed protection systems testing during a series of blast tests. The vehicle completed all threshold and objective protection system testing, with instrumentation indicating that no disabling injuries would have resulted to any of the three crew members and nine dismounted Marines. Lockheed also delivered a report demonstrating the high degree of commonality between the Havoc and other Marine Corps vehicles, aimed at reducing cost, training requirements, and logistics needs.

The Lockheed Havoc AMV completed the Nevada Automotive Test Center's Butte Mountain Trail course in September 2014. The course is one of the most extreme off-road test tracks in the world, comprising a mile of rugged and rocky stretches with 1,000 ft (300 m) of elevation change; numerous vehicles had been damaged or disabled attempting the course, including tanks. Over 40 test runs were performed in 10 days, where the Havoc did not fail a single time. Passengers were complementary of the vehicle's handling, ride quality, acceleration, and braking throughout the demo while at a fully armored weight and how quiet, comfortable, and smooth the ride was. Lockheed plans to offer the Havoc in the Marine Corps' ACV Phase 1 program, and will give the Marines 16 vehicles to test once a Request for Proposals (RFP) is released in early 2015

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BTW, Patria got much more then just AMVs.

http://www.patria-lehti.fi/en/

Nammo | Patria

Millog | Patria

Systems | Patria

Products and services | Patria

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Anyway, better move on to our own FICV thread and topic.

 

[karn]

Re: India May Restart Vehicle Program

Sir, you are also a Russian fanboy ?

Not really .. In land forces in general the USSR was usually ahead of the curve one could do worse than to look to them for designs . Even old ones .

Not sure about Tata Kestrel, I hope it will be one of the best AMV.

But I can post a link for Patria AMV........Patria AMV - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It says.....

----------------------------------------------------------------------

BTW, Patria got much more then just AMVs.

http://www.patria-lehti.fi/en/

Nammo | Patria

Millog | Patria

Systems | Patria

Products and services | Patria

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Anyway, better move on to our own FICV thread and topic.

So Ammuntion , subsystems and MRO ...

 

[Kharavela]

I wonder, why Indian Military leadership is not thinking of Unmanned Tanks instead of conventional Tanks ? I came across an animation in Youtube & was really impressed. Such robotic armoured platforms will certainly boost the fighting capability of Indian Army.

http://youtu.be/e9xqdoDc3oI

 

[Zebra]

Re: India May Restart Vehicle Program

Not really .. In land forces in general the USSR was usually ahead of the curve one could do worse than to look to them for designs . Even old ones .

Italy And Russia Expand Land Defense Cooperation | AWIN content from Aviation Week

So Ammuntion , subsystems and MRO ...

Sir, for Rolls-Royce Turbomeca Adour, we looked at GE Aviation and now we are with BAE. If any Indian company gets Patria, then they can look after our own needs also.

For GE F404, this MRO will also helpful to set up in India also.

The company who gets few of Patria shares, they can go for military aircraft MRO in India also.

And 120mm mortars also.
LIVEFIST: Indian Army Scouts For New 120mm Mortar System

Don't forget, ammos, they remains short supply almost every time in India.

All these are a part from wheeled and tracked infantry fighting vehicles.

 

[Akim]

I wonder, why Indian Military leadership is not thinking of Unmanned Tanks

The question rests in the price.

 

[arnabmit]

I wonder, why Indian Military leadership is not thinking of Unmanned Tanks instead of conventional Tanks ? I came across an animation in Youtube & was really impressed. Such robotic armoured platforms will certainly boost the fighting capability of Indian Army.

http://youtu.be/e9xqdoDc3oI

This is pure fan-fiction.

From what I read, Dahir Insaat is a CGI team, not related to actual defence.

 

[Kharavela]

This is pure fan-fiction.

From what I read, Dahir Insaat is a CGI team, not related to actual defence.

You may have misunderstood, Sir. I have clearly written "ANIMATION". I am not claiming Dahir Insaat's credentials.
I was just suggesting to think building similar platform (as shown in the animation) for Indian Army.

 

[arnabmit]

You may have misunderstood, Sir. I have clearly written "ANIMATION". I am not claiming Dahir Insaat's credentials.
I was just suggesting to think building similar platform (as shown in the animation) for Indian Army.

Yes, I know you were talking about the feasibility of such tech, and not the product in the animation itself.

However this level of miniaturization is not practical till now. Forget SAMs, if a vehicle carries 10+ MANPADS, that alone would need a vehicle double its size. Not to mention its pneumatic sphere-munition launcher with helical magazine.

The kind of weapons miniaturization is still 20-30yrs away. Might get fielded in another 50yrs.