Turkiye Army - Infantry, Artillery & Armour : News, Updates & Discussion.

Azaad

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How have they / who're aiding them to come up with these developments this fast especially when they lack a proper automotive market to propel such developments , not that the two are related but there needs to be a base or foundation as it were to build upon?
 

tfxkaanf23

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Türkiye has 3 big national engine companies in terms of land vehicles and 1 aviation company which produced 170 HP and 220hp diesel engines.aviation engine company produces engines for UAVs.
One of the 3 big engine companies is BMC power which is set for Altay tank engine and fırtına howitzer engines mostly. They also have 400hp and 600hp engines projects for 4*4 ,6*6 and 8*8 armoured vehicles.600 HP engines also will be utilized for civilian BMC tuğra trucks.BMC is. Huge land vehicle producers for decades for armies and for civilian market.

BMC power company

First 400hp BMC power engine deliveries last year for BMC vuran armoured vehicles.


600hp Azra engine also completed land tests on vehicles.it will start serial production soon.
Naval version for unmanned sea vehicles also being developed. Deal signed with usv producers.

1000hp and 1500 HP engines and their power trains also first tested 2-3 years ago. 1500hp Batu engines has been integrated to 1 Altay tank and it's tests going on. It's serial production planned in 2026-2027.
1000hp engine and power train tests going on in the laborotory






https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TmzJkrv3rhE&pp=ygULQm1jIDEwMDAgaHA=

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=nkkNvFAZot0&pp=ygULQm1jIDEwMDAgaHA=



https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=omQcgIRWccI&t=53s&pp=ygUIQmF0dSBibWM=

Second one of the land vehicle engine companies is the Tümosan. It is in tractor production for more than 40-50 years. It produces it's own engines for tractors for decades.it had been chosen for Altay engine development project in 2013 with an Austrian company(AVL).however, Austrian government did not let AVL to help Tümosan. In 2015 ,due this barrier from Austrian government, deal with Tümosan halted. A new project started with BMC which is chosen for Altay serial production. BMC set an engine company in 2017 which is known as BMC power.
Tümosan did not stop it's projects and went on with 350-400 HP engine production for 4*4 and 6*6 armoured vehicles. It has been chosen for engine supplier for FNSS 6*6 vehicles for Turkish army.more ever, Tümosan had many engines for tractors before.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=UtEgi_FbFdc

Tümosan engines for FNSS 6*6 and 8*8 armoured vehicle.





The last one of the 3 big land engine manufacturer is the Ford Otosan. They produced totally domestic engine with Turkish engineers in 700-800hp class for Ford Otosan trucks more than 10 years ago.its engine called Ford ecotorque.like I mentioned,it is designed ,tested and produced by Turkish engineers in Türkiye.
Ford Otosan is a company owned by Turkish Koç group and Ford global.turkish Koç group is also owner of Otokar which designed Altay tank and produces many armoured vehicles



https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=pcKa9O9e0Ho&pp=ygUORm9yZCBlcW90b3JxdWU=

After 2020, they also developed ecotorque power train system totally domestically.

 
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tfxkaanf23

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You know nothing about Turkish automotive market!! Go search for it. Don't just check Turkish civilian brands! Türkiye has many foreign automotive companies which produces cars in Türkiye with more than 60-70 percent local content. Additionally, Türkiye is one of the biggest armoured land vehicles producers and exporter.
You know nothing about Türkiye! And it's r and d capabilities
After taking Altay tank and engine projects from presidency of Turkish defense industry, they invested so much money. They brought many Turkish professionals from Europe and USA with huge salaries. And no one is helping !!
 

Azaad

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You know nothing about Turkish automotive market!! Go search for it. Don't just check Turkish civilian brands! Türkiye has many foreign automotive companies which produces cars in Türkiye with more than 60-70 percent local content. Additionally, Türkiye is one of the biggest armoured land vehicles producers and exporter.
You know nothing about Türkiye! And it's r and d capabilities
After taking Altay tank and engine projects from presidency of Turkish defense industry, they invested so much money. They brought many Turkish professionals from Europe and USA with huge salaries. And no one is helping !!
Please list the Internal Combustion Engines developed independently in Turkey apart from the ones described above with its technical specs & when was it developed for usage in those automobiles assembled as opposed to mfg in Turkey .
 

tfxkaanf23

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Please list the Internal Combustion Engines developed independently in Turkey with its technical specs then for usage in those automobiles assembled as opposed to mfg in Turkey .
I am not sure about automobile engines,further search needed.But Türkiye has many OEMs for automobiles and their engines.
Just check videos and pages I shared. And check automotive companies in Türkiye and their exports.
Türkiye did not have its own automotive brand due many reasons not because of that it does not have industry but due political and economic reasons.

Especially the last 20 years, Türkiye invested so much in r and d. Every local big company has r and d department in Türkiye which helped a lot for designing new products and improving them.
 

Azaad

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I am not sure about automobile engines,further search needed.But Türkiye has many OEMs for automobiles and their engines.
Just check videos and pages I shared. And check automotive companies in Türkiye and their exports.
Türkiye did not have its own automotive brand due many reasons not because of that it does not have industry but due political and economic reasons.

Especially the last 20 years, Türkiye invested so much in r and d. Every local big company has r and d department in Türkiye which helped a lot for designing new products and improving them.
That's precisely my point in the first post. A nation normally doesn't suddenly develop a series of high powered engines in this case ICE without a strong mfg base .

In your case , in spite of having a number of JVs with western countries & in spite of being an export hub Turkey never could either develop an indigenous ICE or its own brand .

Compare your case to the Chinese . They went about their work similar to Turkey but today they've not only developed their own ICE & independent automobile cos in the dozens but also strong Chinese brands selling internationally. And this is only for the ICE component , their EV story is at an altogether different level.
 

tfxkaanf23

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Internal combustion engine is not a case that cannot be handled by Türkiye. The issue is investment cost for new brand! No one wants to invest a Money on national car since domestic market already filled with many brands. For success in export,you need at least 2-3 years in your country. And with investment cost etc. cost of a new car will be much more than foreign ones. Hence no one wants to invest in new brand.
Government set up an initiative by 4 big companies of Türkiye ,and created togg. It gave many incentives and gave guarantee to buy 30k togg. That is how we were able to get a local brand. In the past ,we had some brands 40-&0 years ago. And they were not able to make profits since local market was not able to meet their production hence they halted operation.

For an engine production, you do not need to have a local automotive engine brand!! Especially high power needed military applications are different than civilian engines. You do not need to focus on many things like in civilian market. You do not have civilian requirements but military requirements which mostly focus on power and reliability not environmental things. You do not binded by many environmental restrictions etc.
 

Azaad

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Internal combustion engine is not a case that cannot be handled by Türkiye. The issue is investment cost for new brand! No one wants to invest a Money on national car since domestic market already filled with many brands. For success in export,you need at least 2-3 years in your country. And with investment cost etc. cost of a new car will be much more than foreign ones. Hence no one wants to invest in new brand.
Government set up an initiative by 4 big companies of Türkiye ,and created togg. It gave many incentives and gave guarantee to buy 30k togg. That is how we were able to get a local brand. In the past ,we had some brands 40-&0 years ago. And they were not able to make profits since local market was not able to meet their production hence they halted operation.

For an engine production, you do not need to have a local automotive engine brand!! Especially high power needed military applications are different than civilian engines. You do not need to focus on many things like in civilian market. You do not have civilian requirements but military requirements which mostly focus on power and reliability not environmental things. You do not binded by many environmental restrictions etc.
If ICE is not an issue why hasn't Turkey ever developed an ICE for its automobiles given that most local companies in Turkey has a JV with all the top most brands in the world . Answer - it was deemed inessential to develop an ICE coz there was no point in reinventing the wheel . Moreover in all these JVs it was the foreign partner which brought in the technology not the Turkish partner.

What Turkey should've done is their Govt should've taken the lead to promote local Turkish cos to take over such JVs such that they could then develop such technology like ICE in house either in collaboration with other Turkish groups or thru government funding , preferably both.

Since none of this happened , Turkey's automobile industry will remain an assembly center dependent on technology from outside .For perspective look at China. They did everything I wrote about earlier which is why they have Chinese brands now competing internationally with those very automobile brands which local Turkish companies have teamed up with .

What's the future then ? Nothing special . It'd be old wine in new bottle. Those foreign principals local Turkish companies have collaborated with would either sink or sell to the Chinese who'd then take over the foreign component of the various JVs in Turkey. And your local Turkish companies would've then teamed up with Chinese companies having learnt nothing from their past experience.

Earlier your Turkish companies would've been dependent on European or American companies for tecnology now they'd be dependent on Chinese companies. The more things change the more they're the same.
 

tfxkaanf23

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If ICE is not an issue why hasn't Turkey ever developed an ICE for its automobiles given that most local companies in Turkey has a JV with all the top most brands in the world . Answer - it was deemed inessential to develop an ICE coz there was no point in reinventing the wheel . Moreover in all these JVs it was the foreign partner which brought in the technology not the Turkish partner.

What Turkey should've done is their Govt should've taken the lead to promote local Turkish cos to take over such JVs such that they could then develop such technology like ICE in house either in collaboration with other Turkish groups or thru government funding , preferably both.

Since none of this happened , Turkey's automobile industry will remain an assembly center dependent on technology from outside .For perspective look at China. They did everything I wrote about earlier which is why they have Chinese brands now competing internationally with those very automobile brands which local Turkish companies have teamed up with .

What's the future then ? Nothing special . It'd be old wine in new bottle. Those foreign principals local Turkish companies have collaborated with would either sink or sell to the Chinese who'd then take over the foreign component of the various JVs in Turkey. And your local Turkish companies would've then teamed up with Chinese companies having learnt nothing from their past experience.

Earlier your Turkish companies would've been dependent on European or American companies for tecnology now they'd be dependent on Chinese companies. The more things change the more they're the same.
For automobiles, no need to make a new ice. Hybrid and electrical vehicles are future.
That is why togg has chosen electrical engine.
It uses Bosch engine, but new variants will use domestic engine
 

Azaad

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For automobiles, no need to make a new ice. Hybrid and electrical vehicles are future.
That is why togg has chosen electrical engine.
It uses Bosch engine, but new variants will use domestic engine
So how many hybrid vehicles & EV battery technology has any Turkish company developed INDEPENDENTLY without any technical support from a foreign organization ? Pls list them here.
 

tfxkaanf23

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ASELSAN and Temsa has ev buses on the roads.
Many Turkish bus companies like Otokar ,karsan and Anadolu Isuzu have many vehicles on the European roads with ev technology for years
For batteries, aspilsan company is working to have totally domestic automobile batteries.
Ford Otosan and togg have huge investments to produce batteries near their factories,but they are with foreign tech support
 

Azaad

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ASELSAN and Temsa has ev buses on the roads.
Many Turkish bus companies like Otokar ,karsan and Anadolu Isuzu have many vehicles on the European roads with ev technology for years
For batteries, aspilsan company is working to have totally domestic automobile batteries.
Ford Otosan and togg have huge investments to produce batteries near their factories,but they are with foreign tech support
I asked a SPECIFIC question & you had no SPECIFIC answer to it. Let me explain how does the Military Industrial Complex ( MIC) operate. Maybe then you'd understand where I'm going with my narrative.

For organizations that develop the engine to power your tanks & the power train that goes along with it, the requirements are the industrial depth to either perform R&D followed by mass production & the ability to finance these ventures or to get a partner who comes up with either one or both of the pre requisites mentioned. Clearly these companies you've mentioned in this as well as previous posts have the industrial depth but it's not enough to engineer the kind of items asked for & it certainly can't finance them.

Enter the government to finance the venture & facilitate R&D thru tie ups with friendly countries, incentivising scientists from Turkey settled abroad or European scientists either employed or retired from the MIC in their respective countries to join in Turkey's endeavor to develop such engines, etc.

Then the Government of Turkey puts together a project & funds them. That's one part of the equation. The second part of the equation is to get it right, develop the entire product, equip your armed forces with it & canvas for exports. The last bit is the third part of the equation as up until date all such activities are funded by the state.

For this venture to be profitable, it has to be subsidised thru exports or through commercial exploitation of the technology . There're no other alternative. This is where the situation gets murky as Turkey would then be up competing with global giants already set since long in this field with great geo political clout & plenty of money in the bank.

Arms exports are as much about its own intrinsic quality which is usually an extension of the trust enjoyed ( as symbolised by other products produced ) by that country which in a manner of speaking is a matter of reputation or the brand equity of Turkey as much as it is about the price tag but more than that all such arms dealing is also about political clout.

Now Turkey enjoys a neutral reputation in this field which is to say that it's neither bad nor good as far as quality goes. Yet as far as political clout goes how would Turkey fare in a competition involving say France or China ( let's leave aside traditional arms exporters like the USA & Russia) .

The latter is an interesting case for it's been in the market for long & is today mfg cutting edge military equipment yet how many 4th Gen / 4.5 Gen Fighter Aircrafts has China exported? Let's leave aside it's sole customer in this regard - Pakistan. If Pakistan had the money & less nuisance value it'd be importing from the West not China.

Till date China still enjoys a reputation for mfg cheap products & it's exports mostly comprises of trainer aircrafts at the high end & at the most, but is more well known for its drones, small arms, few APCs, Tanks etc which is usually procured by countries looking for something cheap & can compromise on quality for a whole host of reasons.

Hence for a nation like Turkey to constantly sustain such an MIC it has to have significant usage of such equipment on its own & / or it has to have partners who can put up cash as well as contribute in terms of technology & work sharing. Otherwise the entire burden of sustaining such a MIC falls on the state which is another way of saying it's the taxpayer who bears the brunt of it.

Is Turkey in a financial position to sustain such a MIC given it's present economic condition & that in the near term future? If the answer to that one is a yes, then we'd have to see if Turkey can manage to develop such cutting edge technology on it's own / or with outside consultancy.

This is important as geo political equations dictate that your policy aligns with that of the major powers of the day for them to give you access to the kind of technology you're looking for.

China with it's huge market is still a pariah as far as collaboration in defence technology goes for the West. Can Turkey which isn't exactly on the best of terms with the West strike a better bargain. Assuming the answer is yes, who exactly is going to buy your product for the West can sabotage these deals thru sanctions too ? Think about where Russia is today in this regard while coming up with an answer. I've already given you the example of China
 

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