T-90 mass confusion

[AUSTERLITZ]

Hello,i understand there are professionals well connected with IA in the forum ,i'm baffled by the current status of our t-90 tank force.If u can plz help me understand.

First how many types of t-90 are in IA anyway?
T-90S .Ok this is the basic export version that india bought 310 of in 2001.All delivered and operational.This has kontakt-k-5 ERA.

Now the really confusion begins.
There is t-90s bhisma and t-90m vladimir.
What is the difference between these 2?Do they both carry kaktus/relikt new gen ERA or old KONTAKT-5?

From what i understand there were orders for 330 off the shelf t-90m and then 347 licence produced.Eventually 310 t-90s original plus 1347t-90M/bhisma for total 1657 t-90 tanks.

Now latest news MOD cleared proposal for 354 latest T-90MS tanks for six armoured regiments on china border.Now i'm guessing this is the completely redesigned t-90MS TAGIL with the new relikt encased turret structure that was showcased in defexpo 2012.

So what i want to know is 1]What is primary difference between bhisma and vladimir?

2]Indian t-90s would be outfitted with
Swedish LEDS-150 APS,
Kaktus ERA,
israeli designed enhanced environmental cooling system,
Catherine-FC Gen-3 thermal imager,
Matis-STD thermal imager,
52-cal 2A46M-5 Rapira smoothbore barrel with muzzle reference system,
1,000hp V-92S2 diesel engine,
1A43 system gunner's sight *** laser finder,
1G46 Peleng day sight,
9S517 missile guidance module for refleks atgm,
1V528-1 ballistics computer,
DVE-BS meteorological sensor
licensed copy of elbit and tadiran's digitised battlespace management system & radio communications suite,
indigenous gyrobased nav system
RPZ-86M anti-radar paint coating

Are the above upgarde for t-90m or t-90 bhisma?Or are both same.

3]Is 354 order really the NEW t-90MS TAGIL?

4]How many t-90 tanks are actually operational atm.

5]How many have been fitted with LEDS-150?And are all problems with catherine thermal viewer fixed?

6]Have the original 310 t-90s basic export models undergone any upgrades?

Thanks in advance.

 

[The Last Stand]

Same questions I had.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

T-90 Bhishma is Indian variant of Russian T-90A, Its not a export version either.. ( i am talking about the once made in India )

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1. Indian T-90S use Kanchan composite Armour same used in Arjun MBT, instead of Russian composite Armour, T-90 Bhishma is much heavier than Russian T-90A/S.

2. Till date there are around +600 T-90 Bhishma operating and another 1000 are under production..

3. Indian MOD haven't cleared anything about purchase of T-90MS but if purchased they will be T-90MS.

4. Catherine thermal Problems are solved for now..

5. No APS are yet put on service, But planned..

====================================================

The upgrades you are calling are not official, here some points >>

India`s own effort to upgrade existing T-90S

User-trials of a T-90S MBT equipped with IRDE-developed and BEL-built commander's panoramic sight and driver's uncooled thermal imager (derived from that developed for the Arjun Mk1A MBT) have just gotten underway. If all goes well, then these two items will be retrofitted on to both the first 310 T-90S MBTs acquired for the Indian Army just about a decade ago, as well as on 1,000 T-72M1 MBTs that are due to undergo a deep upgrade. For both MBT-types, VRDE has already developed the APU, which too is now undergoing user-trials.

---------------

The CVRDE-upgraded prototype of the T-90S has done away with the T01-K04 and substitutes it with the IRDE-developed and BEL-built commander's panoramic sight (which houses a SAGEM-built MATIS-STD thermal imager operating in the 3-5 micron bandwidth), which has resulted in enhanced static visibility levels for both the gunner and commander.

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In addition, the IV528-2 digital ballistics computer has given way to an indigenous solution developed by TATA Power Strategic Electronics Division, while the IRDE-developed driver's uncooled thermal imaging night sight has replaced the TVN-5 night-vision device.

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Furthermore, a DEAL-developed MMW-based IFF system has been installed for enhancing the MBT crew's situational awareness.

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Lastly, the T-90S' track-wraps have been indigenised by AMW-MGM Forgings Pvt Ltd, which has also developed tracks with metal/rubber-brushed parallel pin-jointed gearings, stamped track-links adapted to accept rubber pads, with steel needles on the track-pins providing conductivity and picking up static electricity from rubber-brushed pin-jointed gearings during movement.

------------

Russia will make the Indian T-90 "digital" (Google Translation)
Moreover, as noted by the newspaper in Russia digital systems for the T-90 did not pass the state tests. In particular, following the teachings of the "Caucasus-2012", which has been tested and "Constellation-2M", the military found 150 deficiencies. The Ministry of Defense of Russia insisted on the closure of the project, but later it was decided to continue the development of ACS and to devote to this project additional funding.
Article about Constellation-2M in Russian

This pakage is going for T-90S, Though it will customize for Indian needs and flaws can be correct only when tested here..

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More Questions ?

Now the really confusion begins.
There is t-90s bhisma and t-90m vladimir.
What is the difference between these 2?Do they both carry kaktus/relikt new gen ERA or old KONTAKT-5?

From what i understand there were orders for 330 off the shelf t-90m and then 347 licence produced.Eventually 310 t-90s original plus 1347t-90M/bhisma for total 1657 t-90 tanks.

Now latest news MOD cleared proposal for 354 latest T-90MS tanks for six armoured regiments on china border.Now i'm guessing this is the completely redesigned t-90MS TAGIL with the new relikt encased turret structure that was showcased in defexpo 2012.

So what i want to know is 1]What is primary difference between bhisma and vladimir?

2]Indian t-90s would be outfitted with
Swedish LEDS-150 APS,
Kaktus ERA,
israeli designed enhanced environmental cooling system,
Catherine-FC Gen-3 thermal imager,
Matis-STD thermal imager,
52-cal 2A46M-5 Rapira smoothbore barrel with muzzle reference system,
1,000hp V-92S2 diesel engine,
1A43 system gunner's sight *** laser finder,
1G46 Peleng day sight,
9S517 missile guidance module for refleks atgm,
1V528-1 ballistics computer,
DVE-BS meteorological sensor
licensed copy of elbit and tadiran's digitised battlespace management system & radio communications suite,
indigenous gyrobased nav system
RPZ-86M anti-radar paint coating

Are the above upgarde for t-90m or t-90 bhisma?Or are both same.

3]Is 354 order really the NEW t-90MS TAGIL?

4]How many t-90 tanks are actually operational atm.

5]How many have been fitted with LEDS-150?And are all problems with catherine thermal viewer fixed?

6]Have the original 310 t-90s basic export models undergone any upgrades?

Thanks in advance.

 

[Austin]

Indian T-90 uses 2A46M smoothbore guns while the Russian T-90A uses 2A46M4 guns the latter allows it to fire longer rounds due to modified autoloader and fire at higher chamber pressure , Indian T-90 cant fire beyond 3BM42 Mango round.

Also the export model ERA K-5 is appropriately downgraded with protection level of 0.2 for KE and far higher for CE . Russian K-5 offers higher value.

Other than that there is no difference between Russian and Indian T-90 ,

 

[sayareakd]

Other than that there is no difference between Russian and Indian T-90 ,

Kya Austin ji

T90A

T90S Indian army

No APU in T90S

here pic in T90SM

Just basic T90 tank with ERA, no APU, No anti tank counter measures, no AC, missile firing old capability that is all.

 

[The Last Stand]

Indian T-90 uses 2A46M smoothbore guns while the Russian T-90A uses 2A46M4 guns the latter allows it to fire longer rounds due to modified autoloader and fire at higher chamber pressure , Indian T-90 cant fire beyond 3BM42 Mango round.

Also the export model ERA K-5 is appropriately downgraded with protection level of 0.2 for KE and far higher for CE . Russian K-5 offers higher value.

Other than that there is no difference between Russian and Indian T-90 ,

Indian T-90S is derived from Russian T-90A. Apparently the autoloader was modified for our T-90MS.

 

[sayareakd]

Indian T-90S is derived from Russian T-90A. Apparently the autoloader was modified for our T-90MS.

How many T90MS in Indian army service, or even purchased by us ???

 

[Austin]

The T-90MS is a different baby since under the skin every thing is new except the base armour , I dont think India has ordered T-90MS yet but they are planning to for NE deployment.

 

[W.G.Ewald]

Best thread of the week.

 

[The Last Stand]

How many T90MS in Indian army service, or even purchased by us ???

I don't know! T-90MS was designed for India, but I don't remember any being bought by us. We are upgrading our T-90S

 

[Austin]

Upgrade of T-90 and T-72 is being done seperately and only selectively systems are being added like AC and APS , T-90MS is being touted for NE deployments thats different and has nothing to do with upgrade but its not a done deal yet.

 

[AUSTERLITZ]

So let me get this straight we order 1330 t-90m and we didn't get KAKTUS K-6 but old kontakt that too downgraded,Our tank gun is old 2a46 basic Whereas newest russian guns use 2a46m-5.,So basically what did we get from T-90 that is world class,they gave us old armour and firepower and army accepted it.
And despite selecting leds-150 in 2009 ,its 2013 and not one has been retrofitted sir.

One last quaetion in 2009 there were many reports on the 'new' T-90M thats was being licence produced and kits were coming from russia and how it was radically different from t-90s that we got in first batch of 310?
What was really different about t-90m?Did we get kaktus or 2a46m?Otherwise why did we even bother to get this deal?
It seems to me if we didn't get the new ERA and gun then it wasn't really worth it,especially since all the really goodies like the new electronics and FCS,thermal viewers and modular armour package kanchan we added ourselves.

 

[AVERAGE INDIAN]

when it came to the planned procurement of 1,657 T-90s (to replace the 1,781 T-55 and T-72M MBTs in a phased manner), it was decided to adopt a product block developmental approach similar to what by then was being planned for the Indian Air Force's Su-30MKI procurement exercise. Consequently, in February 2001, India bought its first batch of 310 47.5-tonne 47.5-tonne T-90S MBTs worth US$795 million, of which 124 were delivered off-the-shelf, 86 in semi-knocked down kits (for licenced-assembly by the MoD-owned HVF in Avadi), and 100 in completely-knocked down kits (all these MBTs were retrofitted with Saab's IDAS radar/laser warning system and LEDS-150 active protection system, or APS, worth Rs25 billion between 2009 and 2011). This was followed by a follow-on contract, worth $800 million (or Rs175 million per unit), being inked on October 26, 2006, for another 330 T-90M MBTs that were to be built with locally-sourced raw materials and also come fitted with LEDS-150 APS. The third contract, worth $1.23 billion (which was inclusive of the R & D funds required for designing a customised version of the T-90 , was inked in December 2007 for 347 upgraded T-90Ms, which are now being licence-built by HVF. These T-90Ms each come with a THALES-built Catherine-FC thermal imager (operating in the 8-12 micron bandwidth and housed within the Peleng-built 1G-46 gunner's sight), the commander's panoramic sight (which houses the Matis-STD thermal imager that operates in the 3-5 micron bandwidth and which has also been selected for the Arjun Mk1 MBT's panoramic sight), an automatic gearbox, an electro-hydraulic turret-drive-cum stabilisation system, and most importantly, has a 2A46M-5 Rapira smoothbore main gun barrel that also comes fitted with a muzzle reference system.

While all the enhancements featured on the T-90M will also be found on the T-90AM, the latter will, among other things, incorporate a totally new redesigned turret that will now house a remote-controlled weapon station, an independent commander's panoramic sight and gunner's sight, a rear-mounted ammunition reserve stowage bustle and its autoloader (thereby doing away with the much-criticised earlier location alongside the carousel autoloader on the turret's floor and enabling the stowage of single-unit FSAPDS rounds containing long-rod kinetic energy penetrators which the T-90S and T-90M cannot fire at the moment), and redesigned modular armour tiles. The hull-section, housing the driver's and gunner's compartments, will be equipped with a battlespace management terminal, fibre-optic gyro-based land navigation system, software-defined radio suite, health-and-usage management systems for on-board diagnosis of the MBT's vectronics and automotive elements—all these being selected and furnished by the customer (in India's case) to Uralvagonzavod for on-board fitment-cum-integration. Also to be furnished by India for integration is the active protection suite (APS), for which the LEDS-150 is competing with the Iron First APS (already installed on board the Arjun Mk2 MBT) from Israel Military Industries.

FROM VARIOUS SOURCES IN THE WEB

 

[AUSTERLITZ]

So the first 310 T-90s were vanilla but subsequently leds-150 aps was added to them.

The next 330 were t-90m?Did they have any improvement over the vanilla t-90s?Except maybe leds-150 also added.And the last 347 plus 690 were upgraded t-90am with new guns and all sorts of upgrades,Good so that means atleast 1000 odd t-90ams will have upgardes and new gun and also possibly ironfist.
And now army looking for further 354 new t-90ms tagil.

So the final questions that i have are Did we recieve KAKTUS/RELIKT ERA or got old kontakt-5?
And were the earlier t-90s and 330 t-90m upgarded with catherine thermal viewer?

 

[AUSTERLITZ]

Correction on questions,i meant relikt not kaktus.Kaktus is still in development for armata.Relikt is deployed on t-90m.

 

[AVERAGE INDIAN]

Correction on questions,i meant relikt not kaktus.Kaktus is still in development for armata.Relikt is deployed on t-90m.

no all Indian t 90s are using the same amour developed for Arjun

http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/indian-army/36710-indian-t-90s-sub-standard-tank.html

follow the link and post further question s after you go through it i hope most of the answers you can find here

 

[WMD]

So the first 310 T-90s were vanilla but subsequently leds-150 aps was added to them.

The next 330 were t-90m?Did they have any improvement over the vanilla t-90s?Except maybe leds-150 also added.And the last 347 plus 690 were upgraded t-90am with new guns and all sorts of upgrades,Good so that means atleast 1000 odd t-90ams will have upgardes and new gun and also possibly ironfist.
And now army looking for further 354 new t-90ms tagil.

So the final questions that i have are Did we recieve KAKTUS/RELIKT ERA or got old kontakt-5?
And were the earlier t-90s and 330 t-90m upgarded with catherine thermal viewer?

this is from trishul blog

Interestingly, the hulls and welded steel turrets of the 330 T-90Ms, along with their Rapira gun barrels, will be fabricated by HVF with locally-sourced raw materials, while an improved version of the indigenous 'Kanchan' modular ceramics-based composite laminate armour package will be used for substituting the Russian package, whose technology-transfer has been denied by Russia. The same also goes for the Kaktus ERA tiles and RPZ-86M anti-radar paint coating, which will be totally imported from Russia.

TRISHUL: India’s ‘Born Again’ T-90M MBT

some of the info posted by @AVERAGE INDIAN are from the same article. Though how true is Sengupta's info is debatable.

 

[AUSTERLITZ]

From what i heard steel turret and gun barrel quality by HVF wa substandard and then imported from russia after 150 models were produced.,Also about kaktus era being imported thats impossible.Kaktus isn't even in production with russian army,its for armata.If we got relikt then it was imported,they wouldn't give us the tech.As far as i know kaktus has only appeared in the prototype experimental black eagle tank and t-95.
@AVERAGE INDIAN
From what i understand the kanchan armour is used in composite armour modules,i'm asking about the Heavy ERA.Is it RELIKT.Coz if we get relikt that means our tanks are in very superior position to the new chinese tanks.

 

[AVERAGE INDIAN]

From what i understand the kanchan armour is used in composite armour modules,i'm asking about the Heavy ERA.Is it RELIKT.Coz if we get relikt that means our tanks are in very superior position to the new chinese tanks.

ill try to get you more info the best answer you can get is from Kunal Biswas he actually explained this i need to search it you can go thought the link i posted in post 16 http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/indian-army/51409-t-90-mass-confusion-2.html#post738295

 

[Damian]

Correction on questions,i meant relikt not kaktus.Kaktus is still in development for armata.Relikt is deployed on t-90m.

Wrong, "Kaktus" was experimental ERA for Object 640 which is a dead project. "Armata" will use new type of protection, it is not even certain it will use ERA, because NII Stali, institute that developes armor protection, want to completely replace ERA with new type of reactive armor without explosive filler.