Letter: DFI to Defence Minister: Please don't kill Tejas Mk2

[Adioz]

Read all posts before commenting in this space.

We know that Air Force is bent on getting the F-16 (Gripen does not stand a chance). If the single engine fighter deal goes through, Tejas Mk2 is as good as dead.

Spoiler: Genesis of this thread and the idea to write a letter

Honestly there is ZERO justification for a foreign single engine fighter anymore, not with the LCA now in production and kinks being worked out. The IAF doesn't need anything other than the LCA and Rafale in large numbers for the next 10 years, if the GoI moves to get any other jet, especially the F-16, they should be hanged.

I have been saying this single engine programme which worth $ 12 billion is nothing but to kill the tejas mk2 project. If the GOI/MOD decided on it then it would be most insulting and darkest hours in the history of domestic combat aircraft development and manufacturing effort.

Let us all write our argument to PMO website...well I did that sometime back & got reply that they forwarded that to HAL..
I have basically asked them to increase production rate for Tejas..

Let us write to Sitharaman instead. We should make every technical, technological, economic, strategic and emotional argument that we can make in that letter. We can include a pros vs cons list for the options the Air Force wants to take and the one we are suggesting. We can sign it off as a letter from all members of DFI, instead of a letter from a single person. Also, we could attach the letter to a tweet and tag her if they ignore us or give us an unsatisfactory reply. Although the chances are slim, we might be able to change something. Hope is all we have.

Edit: We could forward copies to PMO, Air HQ, HAL and ADA (and maybe to Sandeep Unnithan?).

I can write it after 5/10/17 after my exams are over put it over here for further edits or any other member can also do the same...Regarding me after 5/10 I can write a proper big a$$ letter to her, you guys can pour in more facts!

IMHO its better to make a new thread for it.

Make it and post these discussion there!

Spoiler: Air Force's perspective on why F-16 is a better choice

We are sort of caught between a hard place and a rock. On the one hand, locally built tech if finally catching upto global standards, but not quite ready for induction; on the other, there is an extremely urgent requirement for the same tech. So, if you ask me, buy the foreign maal in small numbers then go indeginous.

Who says, there is no urgent requirement for SE fighters?

IAF sortie rates are critically down. Most analysts tend to say 230+ Su-30MKIs!! What else do we need?

Lemme spell out some things - the aircraft availability rate has improved from before. More planes are flying and at greater sortie rates, true.

But they are JUST FLYING. Actual combat capable jets are far fewer in number! My source refused to give info, for obvious reasons. Pylons are nonfunctional, radars don't work, mission computers are failing - all sorts of stupid problems are plaguing the fleet. On top of all this, is the fact that the Su-30MKI is a fuel guzzler.

The IAF maintenance command in tandem with HAL is sorting these problems, but it'll take time. The only truly reliable aircraft are the Mirage 2000s, the Jaguars and the Tejas - but there are far too few Tejas' in Op service and it will take time to bring the numbers up.

In the meantime, FGFA is a huge mess that the IAF wants to abandon and the AMCA is yet to start. And the MiG-21s and 27s are even worse off in terms of availability, see the problem?

I now see the problem, but the Air Force's solution is still not very convincing.
The questions I have remaining are:

1. Will these single-engine fighters have better availability than Rafael? I don't think so. Will these be inducted into service faster than Rafael? I don't know, the Rafael deal is already through and there are options for more. We do not have to negotiate a deal from scratch. Rafael will undoubtedly be more expensive, so we will have to buy these in lesser numbers than the F-16. But the balance strength can be made up by Tejas Mk2.
2. The Tejas Mk2 can be built at the same rate at which F-16 will be ~3 a month. The only catch here is that the Tejas Mk2 will begin production a couple of years after the F-16 iff the F-16 deal is struck in record time. This explains why the Air Force is showing urgency about this deal: if the F-16 deal is struck late, it will become a pointless decision, maybe even a counterproductive one. My question: Can the Air Force not make do with a couple of years delay in aircraft strength which will, at worse, lead to no offensive capability for a few more years?

Another angle to all this is the drastic increase in SAM strength and capability that we are likely to witness in the coming years. All this will, to some extent, offset weakness induced by a reduced fleet. Another angle is the induction of stand-off weapons such as the Brahmos-A and Brahmos NG.
The only reason why the Air Force logic seems sound to me is because Tejas Mk2 is not flying yet, and may get delayed. In such a scenario 5 years down the road, many would consider the F-16 deal a better option in hindsight.

Members please keep the discussion strictly on topic . We need to minimize the length of this thread because the final draft will have to be written after reading the whole thread. Before making a draft of the letter, we need to agree on the points we are going to make. Please try to post in point form and keep to colour code provided below
Please post arguments that are :-

• economic type in green
• technological type in blue
• strategic type in red

Please do not post rants or long paragraphs.

@Kunal Biswas we need some moderator support to keep thread on track.
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BTW, if the letter is going to get signed as "from all members of DFI", we would first need admin's (@Yusuf @LurkerBaba ) permission. And IMHO they will be the ones who will approve the final draft of this letter and then mail it. Also, can we forward copies to PMO, Air HQ, HAL and ADA (and maybe to Sandeep Unnithan?)

 

[Adioz]

A few good reads before getting into this discussion:-
An old thread that has already discussed a lot about F-16 Block 60 vs Tejas: Tejas vs F-16

A blog by Vivek Ahuja: LCA Tejas versus F-16 in combat (Part-I)

 

[Skdas]

Replying to keep myself tagged.

@Adioz Do consider my signature for the letter. Good luck with this initiative. Continue the good work.

 

[TPFscopes]

@Adioz
I want to correct something which I already shared in an update that IAF didn't like F-16 in any way due to various valid reasons.
As of now, MoD/GoI favours f-16 to improve strategic relationships with US Where as IAF likes to have Gripen E from the option of two.

 

[binayak95]

Okay, economic reasons that I can think of:

1. Large production numbers will mean economy of scale and reduction of costs.
2. Local aviation industry (pvt) is benefitting from Tejas project. They are already involved, do produce a significant number of parts. You want Make In India, govt sponsored large projects is the way forward.
3. Trivial issues will disappear eventually as larger numbers see Squadron service.
4. IAF needs time to understand the Tejas and adapt it to its own doctrines.
5. The Navy gets involved with projects from the get go. From conceptualisation to development and production. IAF needs to do the same. Create a design directorate that works with HAL and pvt manufactureres.

 

[Pandora]

No body called me..I will not put my views :/

 

[Hemu Vikram Aditya]

@Adioz Please consider my signature on the letter. Best of luck.

 

[roma]

we have to make this work other wise we will NEVER develop our own fighter jet industry while china forges ahead with many of their own

because if we give up now, the next effort in future will meet the same challenges and it is like a failure-loop which we can never exit from

goi has to start on the next version upgrade and keep it to time-schedule ... we boast of having large numbers of tech qualified people ???

@Adioz Do add my signature to the letter, and if appropriate quote the logic of my post above as part of the argument to not only keep LCA going but also to upgrade its design for the next stage

India simply cannot afford to allow this project of successfully designing our own fighter jet to fail

@TPFscopes@tejas warrior@abingdonboy@Kchontha@soikot banerjee@Sidd@binayak95@Chinmoy@IndianHawk@lcafanboy@Indx TechStyle@indiatester@indiandefencefan@Amrk@aditya10r@aditya [email protected]@Bhumihar@NeXoft007@Flame Thrower@porky_kicker@Gessler@Armand2REP@captscooby81@sthf@ezsasa@mayfair@Bharat Ek Khoj@Ancient Indian@Superdefender@F-14B@indus@VIP@airtel@Project Dharma@A chauhan@rohit b3@Khagesh@pruthvi24@SanjeevM@BlackJay@G10@Pulkit@gpawar@singh100ful@singhboy98@Kay@indiandefencefan@Zero-Sum-Game@tharun@Bhoot Pishach@armyofhind@Pinky Chaudhary@dumdumdum@HarshBardhan@patriots@Prashant12@Willy2@Steven [email protected]@Jay Patel@kstriya

 

[Mikesingh]

F-16A/B? That's history! They are ready for the museum! A lot of water has flowed under the bridge. The latest in the F-16 family is the Block 70/72 also known as F-16IN Super Viper.

Lockheed Martin had proposed this latest variant, the F-16IN Super Viper, for the manufacture of 126 aircraft in India. The F-16IN is the most advanced F-16 with features that include an AN/APG-80 AESA radar, advanced electronic warfare suites for total situational awareness, and an IRST system. Lockheed Martin would supply the first 18 aircraft, and will set up an assembly line in India in collaboration with Tata Advanced Systems for production of the remainder. The program is reportedly worth up to US$14 billion.

So then, there's no doubt that this is a top-of-the-line fighter 4++ gen aircraft, a slot lower than an advanced stealth fighter. And then once manufacturing facilities are up and ready, there would be a lot of moolah coming in, as India would be the lone centre for overhaul, repairs, and spares for the over 4500 F-16s around the world! That's a jackpot one shouldn't miss.

The Tejas we contend would be an indigenous fighter made in India but that would be incorrect as it can never be fully indigenous as most of the avionics etc would be sourced from Israel/US/EU. The only issue is TOT. Will the Americans give us the technology/source codes etc? I think that issue may be sorted out sooner than later.

And then what's PAF going to do with their 65 operational F-16s?

So I would prefer to go in for the top-of-the-line world class F-16IN Super Viper instead of the Tejas Mk2 where we would be spending millions more as well as the time factor for induction.

 

[aditya10r]

Oye @Adioz my signature as well.

@aditya10r

 

[singhboy98]

A very welcome initiative by the OP (I don't know how to tag people.Sorry). Anyways, please consider my support for this letter a given. If you require any more personal information (Full Name, Email Id etc.) while compiling and sending the letter, please ask. I will be putting my reasons for supporting the Tejas Mk-2 in an hour or two (need some time to put all my thoughts coherently).
Thanks.

 

[Sakal Gharelu Ustad]

If we do not build our own fighter, we will forever be glorified vendors and slaves.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

India will remain weak and inferior in technology and economically if it goes on import, The defense is not meant to be of imported equipment to start with ..

India is not Pakisthan or Kenya, We have 4th largest Army and equally largest Airforce and this all need equipment which can run and maintain inside our country, We don`t want to backrupt ourselves during War, When their is need for constant men and machine ..

Indegnious by design and second is by content, The tejas MK1 in its present config and number already has more Indian content than the rest of the designs which are being licensed manufactured, The Indian content will only increase in time, The issue with ToT is a wet dream and we know about it with Russians who are our so call long term defense partners ..

You don`t get ToT you steal, borrow and work hard, Don`t compare with Pakistan ( Insult ) ..

So then, there's no doubt that this is a top-of-the-line fighter 4++ gen aircraft, a slot lower than an advanced stealth fighter. And then once manufacturing facilities are up and ready, there would be a lot of moolah coming in, as India would be the lone centre for overhaul, repairs, and spares for the over 4500 F-16s around the world! That's a jackpot one shouldn't miss.

The Tejas we contend would be an indigenous fighter made in India but that would be incorrect as it can never be fully indigenous as most of the avionics etc would be sourced from Israel/US/EU. The only issue is TOT. Will the Americans give us the technology/source codes etc? I think that issue may be sorted out sooner than later.

And then what's PAF going to do with their 65 operational F-16s?

So I would prefer to go in for the top-of-the-line world class F-16IN Super Viper instead of the Tejas Mk2 where we would be spending millions more as well as the time factor for induction.

 

[roma]

So then, there's no doubt that this is a top-of-the-line fighter 4++ gen aircraft, a slot lower than an advanced stealth fighter. And then once manufacturing facilities are up and ready, there would be a lot of moolah coming in, as India would be the lone centre for overhaul, repairs, and spares for the over 4500 F-16s around the world! That's a jackpot one shouldn't miss.

The Tejas we contend would be an indigenous fighter made in India but that would be incorrect as it can never be fully indigenous as most of the avionics etc would be sourced from Israel/US/EU. The only issue is TOT. Will the Americans give us the technology/source codes etc? I think that issue may be sorted out sooner than later..

Do we always have to think in terms of mutually exclusive solutions ? .....

i know the money is hard to come by , but if we cut the corruption, and tweak the numbers to be acquired, i think we can have both if the numbers are suitably adjusted ..... and it should not affect our defence preparedness

india does things in fits and starts and there is little continuity in management as one goi coalition gives way to another , but the wrst was our do nothing "saint A " ....fortunately i understand he wasnt corrupt ? but doing nothing and taking salary is also a form of it ?

anyway that said any solution is better that the previous goi -- so lets try some adventurous management for a change , :- tweak the numbers and try to go for both ..... if we have dedicated people in management i think it can be done !!

 

[Flame Thrower]

Oye @Adioz my signature as well.

@aditya10r

@Adioz add my name to the list

 

[varun9509]

@Adioz, please consider my signature as well.

Tejas is a braveheart that is still standing after so much criticism and roadblocks. If the yanks can have F16 B70, why can't there be Tejas MK70. Nothing can ever be perfect, there will always be room for improvement. We just need time, effort and willpower for making it happen. DON'T KILL TEJAS.

Sent from my YU5510 using Tapatalk

 

[rohit b3]

@Adioz Mine as well please. Finally people are speaking up!

 

[Project Dharma]

Read all posts before commenting in this space.

We know that Air Force is bent on getting the F-16 (Gripen does not stand a chance). If the single engine fighter deal goes through, Tejas Mk2 is as good as dead.






Members please keep the discussion strictly on topic . We need to minimize the length of this thread because the final draft will have to be written after reading the whole thread. Before making a draft of the letter, we need to agree on the points we are going to make. Please try to post in point form and keep to colour code provided below
Please post arguments that are :-

• economic type in green
• technological type in blue
• strategic type in red

Please do not post rants or long paragraphs.

@Kunal Biswas we need some moderator support to keep thread on track.
@TPFscopes @tejas warrior @abingdonboy @Kchontha @soikot banerjee @Sidd @binayak95 @Chinmoy @IndianHawk @lcafanboy @Indx TechStyle @indiatester @indiandefencefan @Amrk @aditya10r @aditya g @S.Balaji @Bhumihar @NeXoft007 @Flame Thrower @porky_kicker @Gessler @Armand2REP @captscooby81 @sthf @ezsasa @mayfair @Bharat Ek Khoj @Ancient Indian @Superdefender @F-14B @indus @VIP @airtel @Project Dharma @A chauhan @rohit b3 @Khagesh @pruthvi24 @SanjeevM @BlackJay @G10 @Pulkit @gpawar @singh100ful @singhboy98 @Kay @indiandefencefan @Zero-Sum-Game @tharun @Bhoot Pishach @armyofhind @Pinky Chaudhary @dumdumdum @HarshBardhan @patriots @Prashant12 @Willy2 @Steven Rogers @rrrajesh.yadav @Jay Patel @kstriya Someone know how to tag all regular members? ...........I am tired.

BTW, if the letter is going to get signed as "from all members of DFI", we would first need admin's (@Yusuf @LurkerBaba ) permission. And IMHO they will be the ones who will approve the final draft of this letter and then mail it. Also, can we forward copies to PMO, Air HQ, HAL and ADA (and maybe to Sandeep Unnithan?)

What does any politician want? If they are honest and patriotic they might care a little bit about service to nation. However, I'd argue most aren't. They fear losing their power the most.

We as a collective group most of which support BJP will not vote for the party any more if they do not support a project that will lead to R&D and jobs in this country in favor of foreign procurement.

That there is my best attempt at getting a politician to care, rest I don't believe this letter will have an effect.


For the others chiming in with signatures, OP isn't looking for your signature, he's looking for content for his letter. Please read the starting post.

 

[Willy2]

@Adioz , I too support Pro-Tejas stance


cc]]ca

 

[Sidd]

F-16A/B? That's history! They are ready for the museum! A lot of water has flowed under the bridge. The latest in the F-16 family is the Block 70/72 also known as F-16IN Super Viper.

Lockheed Martin had proposed this latest variant, the F-16IN Super Viper, for the manufacture of 126 aircraft in India. The F-16IN is the most advanced F-16 with features that include an AN/APG-80 AESA radar, advanced electronic warfare suites for total situational awareness, and an IRST system. Lockheed Martin would supply the first 18 aircraft, and will set up an assembly line in India in collaboration with Tata Advanced Systems for production of the remainder. The program is reportedly worth up to US$14 billion.

So then, there's no doubt that this is a top-of-the-line fighter 4++ gen aircraft, a slot lower than an advanced stealth fighter. And then once manufacturing facilities are up and ready, there would be a lot of moolah coming in, as India would be the lone centre for overhaul, repairs, and spares for the over 4500 F-16s around the world! That's a jackpot one shouldn't miss.

The Tejas we contend would be an indigenous fighter made in India but that would be incorrect as it can never be fully indigenous as most of the avionics etc would be sourced from Israel/US/EU. The only issue is TOT. Will the Americans give us the technology/source codes etc? I think that issue may be sorted out sooner than later.

And then what's PAF going to do with their 65 operational F-16s?

So I would prefer to go in for the top-of-the-line world class F-16IN Super Viper instead of the Tejas Mk2 where we would be spending millions more as well as the time factor for induction.

This is all marketing gimmick of LM..Don't fall for it.