France pitching AIP Scorpene as Project 75A contender

[pyromaniac]

March 25, 2009, (Sawf News) - India is likely to tender for six additional AIP submarines within the next two years under Project 75A, to arrest the rapid depletion in the strength of its submarine fleet.

France, Russia, and Germany, all of whom have supplied submarines to the Indian Navy in the past, are likely to bid for project.

India floated a request for information under the project last years, defining the scope of the order.

"They will also have high degree of stealth, land-attack capability and ability to incorporate futuristic technologies. Like the Scorpenes, they will be built in an Indian shipyard, public or private, with special emphasis on full transfer of technology," said a source.

Several rounds of discussions have already taken place with Russia's Rosoboronexport, France's DCNS and Germany's HDW.

France's DCNS, hopes to be leading contender for the new order. It is already supplying six Scorpene submarines to India under a 2.4 billion eur contract signed in 2005. These subs, being assembled at Mazagaon docks, are to be commissioned in the Navy from 2013 through 2018.

The 1750 ton displacement Scorpene is 67 meters long and equipped with 12 torpedoes and 6 anti-ship missiles.

For the follow up 6 submarines, DCNS will offer a Scorpene equipped with the MESMA AIP kit, which it tested in 2008 with the Pakistani Agosta 90B sub, PNS Hamza.

The MESMA module is fitted as an additional hull section with in Scorpene which then measures 76.10 meters long and displaces 2000 tons.

DCNS is expecting strong competition in its bid from Russia's new Amur class and the new variants of German HDW subs.

http://kuku.sawf.org/Articles/57377.aspx


I say we need to diversify...go for russian AMUR.

MODS, I would be grateful if you guys didn't merge this thread into the news section. This can be a discussion thread for project 75A

 

[screwterrorists]

I would have to disagree pyro.
While we dont want to rely on just one country [france] for our subs, i feel it is better if we operate the same machine[more or less].

Not only does it help in logistics planning, upgrades, repairs, parts, TIME, it is also helpful to the trainees. There is a standard platform. This can be crucial in times of war in case of short personnel. It can also allow the us to exploit the sub to its max capability.

This will be the backbone of Navy subs for the future. for diversity, our own subs are taking form. ATV is coming soon[ hopefully] Plus its not like the navy doesnt have other submarines.

 

[vijaytripoli]

We can,t go for german subs because of there continous support to pakisthan like placing a deal with them of u-214 !
Chau

 

[pyromaniac]

Yeah but we need to build up our fleet soon....the AMUR will help us realize that faster. Moreover, the AMUR is cheaper than either of the other two. Then again, didn't France provide us almost full TOT for the Scorpene?

 

[kuku]

The Navy will have so many types of submarines

by 2022 we could quite possibly end up with
- Few Sindhugosh Class & Shishumar Class (could be on the last of their service years)
- Scorpene Class
- Project 75 I
- ATV project SSBN
- Russian SSN
- If we are able to get a operational SSN from ATV project then another type

The trouble with SSKs is that we have to get started on a indigenous type after the project 75I is over, with our high technology industrial capability increasing (relatively) in government, public and private sector, we should be able to match the Indian Navies requirements.

These two projects will however need to expose our ship building industry to the latest in the world right now our nations submarine building capability is very poor as was evident from the time it took to refit some of the submarines, and we will have to follow up rather quickly with the indigenous types to make sure that the talent gained is not lost.

Possibly with the indigenous line of SSKs coming online we will have no use for importing submarines and could solve the logistical, training, operation etc. problems that one could imagine multiple types of submarines cause.

Considering that the last of the SSKs will be inducted around 2020 by 2040 we could possibly be looking at
- indigenous SSBN line.
- indigenous SSN line.
- indigenous SSK line.
Ship building is a long process, takes decades to buildup a Navy.

A modified Scorpene class could represent ease of integration with ship building industry and the Indian Navy, however if we have a certain plan that we are following (which in this case is gaining capability for the indigenous project), it will pay us to stick to the plan and explore the market and go for something different (the German or Russian subs for example have features quite different from the French subs).

Might do this now instead of waiting another 20-30 years.

One advantage building the SSKs in house we will have is that no nation is afraid to transfer technology (at a price that is) to India due to various reasons one of them being that they do not (except our direct foes) view Indian Naval buildup as a threat.

 

[Yusuf]

The ATV started more as an SSN in an anti ship and sub role. India is yet to have an operational SLBM and under the MRCT we will not be able to get off the shelf SLBMs.
Besides at 6000Tons its way smaller atleast half than other SSBNs to qualify as a true SSBN.
However there is a program to extend the expertise gained form the ATV to make true SSBNs.

 

[kuku]

From what is known through media, ATV is adopting a wise approach, testing important systems/components/integration required for the SSN/SSBN with out complicating the tech demonstrator.

The SLBM will only be operational when it is on a submarine operating with the Indian Navy. The current ~700km ballistic missile will be able to complete all the required tests in the ATV, later on a longer ranged BM can be integrated on to the first SSBN.

 

[shiv]

what i think is that we should completely scrap the SSK's from the navy except for the six scorpenes we are building....

these 6 costed 2.4 billion euros or approx 3 billion dollors or 500 million each

the atv after so many research is coming for about >1 billion a piece.
now the tender for 75a because of inflation and added tech will make each sub around 800 mill apiece

so my question is---> isint it better to go nuke??

 

[Yusuf]

If we can make indigenous boomers for the same price as European SSks then it makes more sense to go for home grown stuff.
But then that will be in the long run till the time we master the nuke sub technology.
Untill then we will have to rely on imported SSKs.
We don't even have trained crew to operate SSBNs which is why we leased the Nerpa, so things are not going to change over night.

 

[K Factor]

We can,t go for german subs because of there continous support to pakisthan like placing a deal with them of u-214 !
Chau

The Type 214 is a diesel-electric submarine developed by Howaldtswerke-Deutsche Werft GmbH (HDW). It features diesel propulsion with an air-independent propulsion (AIP) system using Siemens polymer electrolyte module (PEM) hydrogen fuel cells. It is based on features of the Type 212, but as the export version of the more advanced Type 212 submarine it lacks the non-magnetic hull (to avoid detection) and other classified technologies. Also Type 214 is more similar to the very successful Type 209 submarine, while Type 212 was an independent project of the German Navy with significant changes to Type 209.

Indian Scorpenes (will) have non-magnetic hull coatings.

 

[screwterrorists]

Yes. The Scorpions come with almost full TOT.

and kommunist that awesome news!

 

[Rage]

Besides the points raised by st, the Scorpene is better suited to both littoral warfare and deep ocean work than the Amur. It has the teardrop/Albacore hull allowing for greater hydrodynamic flow and increased underwater speed as well as diminished sonar signature; has a greater diving depth of 350 m and endurance in excess of 55 days in comparison to the Amur (1850) with a diving depth and endurance of 250 m and 50 days respectively; a submerged displacement of 1590 t against the Amur's 2600 t (room temp.); and a sonar suite that includes a long range passive cylindrical array, an intercept sonar, active sonar, distributed array, flank array, towed array and a high resolution sonar for mine and obstacle avoidance.

The only reason I favor somewhat the Amur- besides the obvious glaring price differences- is its considerably low acoustic signature (several times less infact than the “Kilo” class submarines which are considered at present the most silent in the world), and its new generation radio-electronic weapons and compatibility with the country's existing armament: most notably the Klub-S (3M-54E and 3M-14E variants) missiles equipped on the Sindhughosh class in addition to future submarine-launched anti-ship and land-attack Brahmos variants. Most importantly however, is the Amur's ability to fire missiles in salvo at multiple targets: The early version Amur 950 alone is capable of striking massive missile blows in salvo of up to 10 missiles under 2 minutes! However, I don't foresee the DCN having problems equipping the torpedo tubes on the Scorpenes with the existing Klub missiles- they are conventionally armed after all, and it seems well worth the price.

 

[K Factor]

Isn't the Amur's complement of 18 (950) and 32 (1650) a little less compared to other SSKs?

 

[Pintu]

I agree with you Rage.

 

[pyromaniac]

Besides the points raised by st, t
The only reason I favor somewhat the Amur- besides the obvious glaring price differences- is its considerably low acoustic signature (several times less infact than the “Kilo” class submarines which are considered at present the most silent in the world)

I think you might be wrong about that...I remember reading that the Ohio state SSBN's were and remain the quietest boats ever built and I would toss the Seawolf and the Virginia attack subs in there.
With that said though, I wouldn't be totally honest if I didn't point out that under 5knots Diesel-Electrical subs are practically invisible. If equipped with AIP then the sub cant be found unless you are using Active sonar. In that sense both the Scorpene and the Amur fit the bill....we wouldn't be going wrong choosing either.

p.s. At the rate this is going, France is going to outstrip Israel as India's biggest defense contractor

 

[Rage]

I think you might be wrong about that...I remember reading that the Ohio state SSBN's were and remain the quietest boats ever built and I would toss the Seawolf and the Virginia attack subs in there.

Pyro, in addendum to the discussion we had in the chatbox the other day, the following official source from the Rubin Naval Design Bureau corroborates my claims: http://www.ckb-rubin.ru/eng/project/submarine/noatompl/index.htm

In addition, the Amur 1650/ Lada class submarines commenced sea-trials only in November 2005, making any comparisons with its predecessor (and statements therewith) on the 'Kilo' class submarine more recent than inferences drawn from Ohio specifications. Furthermore, the Kilo class, like the Amur incorporates anechoic tile coatings over its casings and fins and an ultra-quiet seven-blade skewed propeller, greatly reducing its sonar signature.

With that said though, I wouldn't be totally honest if I didn't point out that under 5knots Diesel-Electrical subs are practically invisible.

The Kilo class submarine Project 877 Paltus/Turbot has a submerged speed of 17-25 knots and a surfaced speed of 10-12 knots (official). The Kilo class submarine Project 636 'Varshavyanka' has a submerged speed of 20 knots and a surfaced speed of 11 knots (official).

http://www.tandef.net/kilo-class-project-636-diesel-electric-submarine-black-hole
http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/kilo/specs.html

If equipped with AIP then the sub cant be found unless you are using Active sonar. In that sense both the Scorpene and the Amur fit the bill....we wouldn't be going wrong choosing either.

Would depend on naval requirements. Either has advantages and disadvanatages. For instance, the Scorpene's MESMA anaerobic system produces heat as the primary circuit through a combination of cryogenically stored LOX and ethanol combustion. This infact requires the raising of operating temperatures to 700 degrees C at 60 bar pressure, in turn increasing the submarine's infrared signature. It also causes the expulsion of warm carbon dioxide based gases, which can be detected by using infrared and chemical means. As well, it requires the installation of a special plug-in section that increases length by 8.3m and submerged displacement by 305 tonnes over and above its AM-2000 counterparts. In contrast, the Amur (1650) is being offered with an AIP module based on oxygen-hydrogen fuel cells where only electricity, heat and water are produced. It's endurance however (reported at 15 days- with the engine in non-snorkeling mode) is lower than that of the MESMA (which assuming the more conservative estimate of immersion duration enhancement of x3, would be ~35 days) giving the Scorpene a distinct advantage in terms of under-water endurance quite comparable to nuclear submarines. It would also increase vessel length by 10-12m and submerged displacement by ~450 tons. However, the PEM (Polymer Electrolyte Membrane) fuel cells from Siemens of Germany could also be installed aboard the Amur as an alternative to the Russian AIP module and will likely offer superior performance.

There are however several other factors to also consider, which I alluded to in me previous post.

p.s. At the rate this is going, France is going to outstrip Israel as India's biggest defense contractor

I hope so. At least that would give us some respite from cheesey Bollywood sales pitches. :dance4: :blum3:

 

[Rage]

Addendum to my previous post:

I am reliably informed that the exhaust discharged from a Sterling engine used in the Scorpene is cooled from 700 degrees C to 25 degrees C and pressurized to 20 bar prior to being ejected into adjacent seawater. That nullifies therefore the disadvantage of warm carbon-dioxide gases being expelled as a result of the reaction being detected through infrared and chemical means.

 

[pyromaniac]

Good points rage, but it really is like comparing Apples to oranges. In terms of stealth and performance I doubt any boat will come close to matching the Ohio class but then again, the Ohio is an SSBN not a Attack Sub like the Amur and the Scorpene.

 

[Rage]

Good points rage, but it really is like comparing Apples to oranges. In terms of stealth and performance I doubt any boat will come close to matching the Ohio class but then again, the Ohio is an SSBN not a Attack Sub like the Amur and the Scorpene.

True dat bruv.

 

[SATISH]

When it comes to stealth in subs my money is with the Typhoon. And in SSn it is with the Nerpa> When it comes to SSK I would love to see the latest U-212 in the Indian navy.I dont know but I prefer european subs over western ones.