What and who is "The West" ?

panduranghari

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@pandu are you referring to Uzaat , lat , manat . as referred in Satanic Verses.
Satanic verses is fiction. What I was talking about is what may have really happened. I have no way to confirm it but the passages from the Jewish encyclopedia are quite telling, don't you think?
 
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panduranghari

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Wendys Child Syndrome

Given that Indology was started by the East India Company as part and parcel of colonialism, RISA appears to have stepped into those shoes and proclaimed itself as the new Sarkar. Dilip Chakrabarti, on the faculty of the Archaeology Department at CambridgeUniversity, explains very emphatically:[ lxxxiv ]

""¦one of the underlying assumptions of Western Indology is a feeling of superiority in relation to India, especially modern India and Indians. This feeling of superiority is expressed in various ways. On one level, there are recurrent attempts to link all fundamental changes in the Indian society and history to Western intervention in some form. The image of ancient India which was foisted on Indians through hegemonic texts emanating from Western schools of Indology had in mind an India that was steeped in philosophical, religious and literary lores and unable to change herself without external influence, be it in the form of Alexander the Great, Roman Ships carrying gold or the Governor-Generals of the British East India Company. On a different level, expressions of Western superiority can be more direct and encompass a wide range of forms: patronizing and/or contemptuous reviews of Indian publications, allusions to personal hardships while working in India, refusal to acknowledge Indians as "agents of knowledge" or even blatant arrogance which makes one wonder if the civilized values of Western Academia have not left its Indology mostly untouched"¦"

"After all, Western Indology is an essential by-product of the process of establishment of Western dominance in India. Racism -- in this case a generic feeling of superiority in relation to the natives -- was, quite logically, one of the major theoretical underpinnings of this process. It is but natural that Western Indology should carry within it a lot of this feeling of superiority"¦"
The Colonizer's Mentality:

Here is one theory I propose about why some RISA scholars are so desperate and angry. These scholars are used to dealing with certain categories of Indians only, and when someone does not fit any of these stereotyped "boxes", their attempts to apply their standard tools fail, leading them to great frustration:

1. Many Western scholars of Indian religions are used to manipulating and dealing with poor villagers in India, whom they term "native informants," and from whom they extract "research data" using their own biased filters. This has been done often with the collusion of Indian scholars, NGOs and intermediaries. The native informants feel obliged to dish out what is expected of them by the firangi scholar, who has a lot of grant money to throw at the data gathering process.

2. In more recent times, the scholars have also had to deal with a second category of Indians: these are the semi-ignorant and naïve Diaspora students sitting in their classes, on topics such as "Introduction to Hinduism." Given the power and knowledge imbalance, scholars have been able to adjust their teachings to not seem blatantly anti-Hindu, and many have adopted deceptively friendly demeanors and portrayals that often succeed in fooling the youth into imagining that these scholars genuinely respect their traditions and that what they teach must be authentic. Duplicity and ambiguity are used as strategic tools, because it is widely believed that Hindus are non-confrontational by nature. Here, a classic tool of British colonial entrapment has been used. This is best described in the words of the historian John Keay: "Other foes made their intentions clear by denunciations of one's family or religion, and by ravaging the countryside and plundering the towns. The British, generally so restrained in their language and so disciplined in the field, were very different. They could make hostility look like friendship and conquest like a favor. It was difficult to rally support against such tactics."[ lxxxv ]

Prof. Antonio de Nicolas explains the obsession to claim superior rationality for European people:[ lxxxvi ]

"Nothing of what RISA scholars claim of yoga or "Hindu Religion" has much to do with Indic texts and the practice of religion in India. Notice also, that you are dealing mostly with the University of Chicago. My personal experience with them in philosophy is as bad as yours in religion. [According to these scholars,] Indic texts have no rationality, they are mythical and therefore not historical and therefore false or irrational. Have you asked yourself why? My conclusions come from the way they handled history in ancient times when those same scholars were called Akkhedians , stole writing from the Phoenicians and rewrote history for everyone else so that their dates would make them be the first to hold knowledge, the One (conceptual) God, and mostly revelation, the prophetic voice. Of course we know all this is wrong , but their attitude has not changed. I was told that it was impossible for a Hindu, mythic text to be philosophical for it was not historical and therefore irrational. My answer is that to proclaim one single rationality as RATIONAL is sheer irrationality and conceptual imperialism."

Prof. Gayatri Chakravorty-Spivak explains this denial of Indians' agency by Western historians, to make the same point:[ lxxxvii ]

""¦it is almost as if we don't exist. That is to say, colonials, even upper-class colonials, do not exist as agents. It is not as though these historians don't know a lot of people like that when they go for their fieldwork and so on. But when it comes to the work they present we never hear of people"¦you never see anything that puts them on the same level of human agency."

Prof. Dilip Chakrabarti explains how the West has bred and bought off a whole generation of elitist Indians, and how this axis operates today:[ lxxxviii ]

""¦after Independence"¦ [Indians] – especially those from the 'established' families – were no longer apprehensive of choosing History as an academic career"¦. To join the mainstream, the historians could do a number of things: expound the ruling political philosophy of the day, develop the art of sycophancy to near-perfection or develop contacts with the elite in bureaucracy, army, politics and business. If one had already belonged to this elite by virtue of birth, so much the better. For the truly successful in this endeavour, the rewards were many, one of them being the easy availability of 'foreign' scholarships/fellowships, grants, etc. not merely for themselves but also for their protégés and the progeny. On the other hand, with the emergence of some specialist centers in the field of South Asian social sciences in the 'foreign' universities, there was no lack of people with different kinds of academic and not-so-academic interest in South Asian history in those places too, and the more clever and successful of them soon developed a tacit patron-client relationship with their Indian counterparts, at least in the major Indian universities and other centers of learning. In some cases, 'institutes' or 'cultural centres' of foreign agencies were set up in Indian metropolises themselves, drawing a large crowd of Indians in search of short-term grants or fellowships, invitations to conferences, or even plain free drinks."

We Are Not Native Informants Any More!

Therefore, the specific kind of Indian that certain RISAologists are most uncomfortable in dealing with is anyone who is already successful in a "Western" organization, and especially anyone who has managed over a large number of Westerners for an extensive period of time. Such a person is not likely to idolize them, or be easily taken for a ride. Any Indian who has succeeded in dealing with Westerners on their own turf must have enough insight into the Western mind, its strengths and weaknesses, and must be self-confident. Scholars can neither exploit such a person as a "native informant," nor patronize him in the same manner as a young NRI student looking for a good grade. For one thing, any such Indian is bound to challenge them, rather than accepting their scholarship at face value, and is likely to be skilled at negotiation.

The Eurocentric superiority complex, so blatant among many aggressive RISA members, is a reaction and Freudian cover for their deeply-rooted inferiority complexes and insecurities. Just as most East India Company officers working in India were low-class Englishmen, often from poor and semi-educated backgrounds, who suddenly transformed themselves into wealthy and powerful rulers after arriving in India, many RISA scholars are rather poorly regarded within mainstream Western society, and yet boss over Indians using their assumed authority.

This has to do with their personal backgrounds. After early years of hippie-like wandering around to "find themselves," many of them successfully "became somebody" when they were nurtured by Indic traditions of various sorts. This led to the academic route, and eventually to becoming high-ranking scholars who can boss over the very traditions that gave them sustenance and made them who they are. Few such scholars have any alternative skills to fall back on within the Western career market. Hence, it is understandable that their bloated egos must cling on to Indic traditions as their personal property.

Meanwhile, within the Western academy, the more specialized someone becomes, the less oversight and due diligence is possible, because there are very few others who are able to challenge them within an ultra specialized field. This breeds cults of micro-specialties, each of which assumes a life of its own.

When assertive Indians show up, the tables are suddenly turned, as described below:

1. The Western scholar of the humanities is sometimes unable to deal with the reality that he/she is lower on the West's own scale of rational training, as compared to successful Indians who are well-educated in science, engineering, medicine, finance, management, entrepreneurship or other areas where analytical skills are critical. (I have challenged certain professors of Hinduism to compare their own SAT college entrance scores with those of the average Indian student in their class, especially in math, to decide whether they should be portraying the Indic traditions as being less rational than the West. I have yet to find anyone accepting this challenge.) Therefore, this business of depicting the Indic traditions as somehow irrational or backward is unsustainable in front of the rational Indians, except by distortion of the facts as illustrated earlier in this essay. It is ironic that some scholars hide behind their "dense writings" with great pride, failing to appreciate that a solid experience in theoretical physics, or in writing software compilers or network protocols, or in negotiating complex 500-page business contracts, involves high-caliber, very terse and rigorous work. Frankly, far too many writings from the religious studies are poorly structured, loosely argued, and sometimes outright illogical.

2. Eurocentric scholars are used to exerting power over Indians who are in Ph.D programs, or are seeking jobs in academe, or must appease them for the sake of being included in conferences or publishing projects, or would like a favorable recommendation for a tenure. Many Indians thus get reprogrammed as sepoys to serve the RISA Raj.[ lxxxix ] However, when someone is secure, and does not want or need any such favors that they could possibly offer, Eurocentric scholars feel terribly insecure and powerless.

3. Most Indians who have encountered scholarly nonsense of the kind described in this essay, who are successful professionally to be assertive, and who are also independent of the academy, are simply ignorant of the subject matter to be able to deal with the scholars on their own turf. This is why, from 1995 through 2000, I devoted almost all of my time reading hundreds of academic books and papers in a wide variety of humanities subjects. Most scholars have read less than this, and are too narrow in their knowledge of academic publications. They are far too busy with administrative and other routines to be able to read so much. This makes any knowledgeable challenger especially threatening to their sense of cultural and personal superiority.

The combination of all three factors mentioned above creates an interesting reversal of the conventional power structure in the field of India related studies. (This is analogous to the complaint from Western corporate women that men often find it hard to respect a female boss, because the conventional power structure is reversed.) They would love to get rid of such "threatening" persons who call out their shortcomings, so that they may go about their exploitative scholarship unimpeded.
 
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pmaitra

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What aspects of Russian culture are distinctly 'Western'? Russian religion, language, and even script are all distinct from the West. Russian politics, economics, and society have always been markedly different from the 'West', long before the 20th century.

Unlike the 'West', which has its ultimate roots in the (Western) Roman Empire, Russia has its roots in the Byzantine (Eastern Roman) Empire, and has also been greatly influenced by Asiatic cultures like the Khazars and Mongols/Tatars. Also, Russia never underwent the same historical processes like the Renaissance, Reformation, and Enlightenment that created the modern West. Russia developed in its own unique manner and therefore deserves to be treated as a distinct civilizational entity (other Orthodox nations like Bulgaria, Serbia, etc. do not belong to the West either; they can be said to belong to the same greater civilization as Russia).

  • Byzantium - 1st Christian Empire.
  • Rome - 2nd Christian Empire.
  • Russia - 3rd Christian Empire.
  • 4th Christian Empire - there shall not be one.


Both Roman and Russian Empires have their roots in the Byzantine Empire. Russian Empire is closer to Byzantine Empire than Roman Empire. No wonder Russians still celebrate Christmas in January, unlike the adjusted Christmas celebrated in December in the West. I would put Rome on one side (West) and Russia and Byzantium on the other (East), or to be precise, the near East.

Rest, I agree with.


Language not Western? What is Western language anyway? English? French? Italian? German? These are all different languages... just like how different Russian is to these languages. So you cannot claim Easternness from the Russian language. Maybe "Eastern Europeanness," which, BTW is still "European," thus, part of the "Western civilization."

Here are graphic illustrations of languages (written) of some countries from the Western civilization including Russia.

German


Greek


Russian


Now compare those written languages with that of Asian countries (Eastern civilization):





It's clear that the first group of languages above have closer similarities to each other as against the languages below.

A script with lot of straight lines typically implies a script patronized by an Empire to facilitate engraving in stone. It is easy to inscribe straight lines in stone, than curved lines. A script with lot of curves typically implies a script more suitable for writing with ink on dried leaves or barks. Too many straight lines would simply cut dried barks and leaves.

And please understand that when Roman or Cyrillic is written on paper, they incorporate a lot of curves as well.


Roman


Cyrillic




BTW, Byzantine Empire is an offshoot of the Roman Empire. In fact the Russians, like their Western European counterparts, are Christians.
Wrong, and anachronistic. Rome is an offshoot of Byzantium. Read my response to CivFanatic.

Continued . . .
 

pmaitra

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You did not answer my question. South Indian scripts have close similarity with Southeast Asian scripts like Thai and Lao. Does this mean that India and Southeast Asia belong to one civilization?

Telugu script:


Lao script:


Malayalam script:


Thai script:
Just as I told AsianObserve, script pertains to practicality, and reflects the primary surface it is written/inscribed on.

Besides the writing system, the sound system is very similar, replete with long and short vowels and other distinctive characteristics of Indian language.
Long and short vowels are not distinctive characteristics of Indian languages. It exists in Russian, and you can refer to Learning Russian by Nina Potapova. I have all 4 volumes.



It seems you like images. I have a few to show as well.
:lol:

Continued . . .
 

pmaitra

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Jamakaran Mosque, Iran


Jama Masjid, India


Angkor Wat, Cambodia


Annamalaiyar Temple, India



So, logically, India, Iran, and Cambodia all belong to a single civilization?




Perhaps you should differentiate between what aspects of Russian/Slavic culture are external, civilizational influences and which aspects are more or less indigenous and characteristic of Russian/Slavic culture.
Oh the great Onion Domes.







I admit that "civilization" may be a lose term for it, the more accurate term should be Eastern "World."

Eastern world - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"The term Eastern world refers very broadly to the various cultures or social structures and philosophical systems of Asia or geographically the Eastern cultures. This includes the Indian subcontinent (comprising Bangladesh, Bhutan, India, Myanmar, Pakistan, Sri Lanka, the Maldives, and Nepal), the Far East (comprising China, Taiwan, Vietnam, Cambodia, Malaysia, Mongolia, Indonesia, Japan, North Korea, South Korea), the Middle East (Israel, Palestine, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, Iran, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Bahrain, Yemen, and Egypt), and Central Asia (Uzbekistan, Kazakhstan, Turkmenistan, Tajikistan, Afghanistan, and Kyrgyzstan)."




However hard you try to bring Russia to the East (Eastern World) you simply can't. It's firmly part of the Western World.

But it's another story if we are talking about the 20th century concept of "West" and "East" referring to the political and economic dichotomy between the Western Bloc and the Eastern Bloc countries and their allies.
Well, looking at these toilets, standard in Soviet Trains, I must say, Russia is not firmly part of the Western World. The safest thing to say is that Russia is a healthy mix of the Orient and the Occident, and with that knowledge, I think we should all try to chill out.



Completed.
 

asianobserve

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A script with lot of straight lines typically implies a script patronized by an Empire to facilitate engraving in stone. It is easy to inscribe straight lines in stone, than curved lines. A script with lot of curves typically implies a script more suitable for writing with ink on dried leaves or barks. Too many straight lines would simply cut dried barks and leaves.

And please understand that when Roman or Cyrillic is written on paper, they incorporate a lot of curves as well.
You missed the point. Anyway, read this: Alphabet - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Note the distinction between Western (European) and Eastern (Asian) alphabets.


Wrong, and anachronistic. Rome is an offshoot of Byzantium. Read my response to CivFanatic.

Continued . . .

Please read again my post, it mentions about "Roman Empire." FYI the Roman Empire is the Empire that succeeded the Roman Republic (Julius Caesar? Pax Romana? do they ring a bell to you?). The Roman Empire gave rise to two empires: 1) Byzantine Empire, and 2) the Holy Roman Empire. But both these offshoot empires are part of the Western civilization or Western World.
 
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asianobserve

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The term "Eastern world" is an extremely broad categorization that includes multiple civilizations. The definition that you appended from Wikipedia is almost entirely useless, since it is based on arbitrary geography and not actual civilizational borders/fault-lines. Would you consider Libya a part of the Western world? Where does Libya (or North Africa in general) fit into this definition? Geographically, North Africa is located much closer to Western Europe than, say, Greece.
The concept of the Western part of the earth has its roots in Greco-Roman civilization in Europe, with the advent of Christianity. In the modern era, Western culture has been heavily influenced by the traditions of Renaissance, Protestant Reformation, Age of Enlightenment, and shaped by the expansive colonialism of the 16th-20th centuries.

Western world - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Did you read anything I wrote? I never said that Russia was part of the 'East', I said it was distinct from both 'East' and 'West'. It has been significantly influenced by the West, yes, but that does not make it a part of it.

Russia is as much a part of the 'Western world' as Turkey.

Turkey is peculiar, almost evading characterization. But the key difference between Turkey and Russia is that while the latter embraced Islam the latter is firmly within the Western religion of Christianity (thus more in common with Western civilization).
 

pmaitra

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Wrong, and anachronistic. Rome is an offshoot of Byzantium. Read my response to CivFanatic.

Continued . . .

Please read again my post, it mentions about "Roman Empire." FYI the Roman Empire is the Empire that succeeded the Roman Republic (Julius Caesar? Pax Romana? do they ring a bell to you?). The Roman Empire gave rise to two empires: 1) Byzantine Empire, and 2) the Holy Roman Empire. But both these offshoot empires are part of the Western civilization or Western World.

Do you need help understanding what you, yes you, yourself wrote?

Read it again:

BTW, Byzantine Empire is an offshoot of the Roman Empire. In fact the Russians, like their Western European counterparts, are Christians.
Did you read it? Good, now read it once again:

BTW, Byzantine Empire is an offshoot of the Roman Empire. In fact the Russians, like their Western European counterparts, are Christians.
And for one last time, read it again:

BTW, Byzantine Empire is an offshoot of the Roman Empire. In fact the Russians, like their Western European counterparts, are Christians.
Hope you understand why I said what I said.
 

civfanatic

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In the modern era, Western culture has been heavily influenced by the traditions of Renaissance, Protestant Reformation, Age of Enlightenment, and shaped by the expansive colonialism of the 16th-20th centuries.
Guess what? Russian culture has been shaped by NONE of these events. It developed in a very unique manner, separate from the West.


Turkey is peculiar, almost evading characterization. But the key difference between Turkey and Russia is that while the latter embraced Islam the latter is firmly within the Western religion of Christianity (thus more in common with Western civilization).
Religion by itself does not provide basis for membership in a common civilization. Much of Sub-Saharan Africa is Christian, so are they also part of the West? How about the Philippines, or South Korea, or even Kerala state in India for that matter?

Russia does indeed have more in common with the West than Turkey, but it is not a part of the wider Western civilization.
 

civfanatic

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Just as I told AsianObserve, script pertains to practicality, and reflects the primary surface it is written/inscribed on.
Makes sense. Are any curves used for Devanagari script? I find that it is more cumbersome to write than South Indian scripts like Telugu (which very well might be the most curvaceous scripts in existence, though I can't objectively verify that).
 

pmaitra

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Makes sense. Are any curves used for Devanagari script? I find that it is more cumbersome to write than South Indian scripts like Telugu (which very well might be the most curvaceous scripts in existence, though I can't objectively verify that).
South Indian people, for centuries, in all likelihood, used dried leaves and barks. While there is an abundance of stone architecture in the South, most of what I have seen consists of statues, motifs, and idols, and rarely script. Which is probably why South Indian scripts are so curvaceous. Bengali and Assamese script, on the other hand, has close similarity with Ashokan script, and Ashoka was famous of his stone inscriptions. That perhaps explains why these scripts are full of edges.

Hindi and Bengali are both written in scripts that have a common heritage, but, it appears, that Hindi writing progressed into dried leaves and barks and incorporated more curves while Bengali preserved the edges. The following excerpt might shed some light:

The Kutila inscription of Bareilly is an inscription in the Kutila script (कुटिल लिपि) dating to 992 CE that provides crucial evidence in tracing the shared descent of the Devanagari and Bengali scripts of Northern and Eastern India from the predecessor Gupta script.[1] The writing was found on a stone unearthed in Bareilly district in the United Provinces of Agra and Oudh (modern-day Uttar Pradesh).[1] The inscription proclaims that it was created by an engraver from Kannauj who was "proficient in the Kutila character".[1] It also includes the date of the inscription, Vikram Samvat 1049, which corresponds to 992 CE.[1]
The word Kutila (कुटिल) means crooked in the Sanskrit language, and it is assumed that the name came from the curving shapes of Kutila letters, distinct from the straighter lines of the Brahmi and Gupta scripts.[2][3]
Source: Kutila inscription of Bareilly - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Unfortnately, I searched, but could not find a picture of the Kutila engraving discovered in Bareilly. If we could see that, perhaps we would understand this better.
 

asianobserve

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Do you need help understanding what you, yes you, yourself wrote?

Read it again:



Did you read it? Good, now read it once again:



And for one last time, read it again:



Hope you understand why I said what I said.

You've been acting like a pain in the as# lately and openly condescending. I said Byzantine Empire not Byzantium. They're also different. The former is an Empire that came out of the Roman Empire while the latter is a place established by Greeks and later on renamed Constantinople (once the capital of the Roman Empire).

Byzantium is not the capital of the Classical Greek civilization. It is a province established by Greek colonists at the height of the Classical Greek era. The Roman Empire was not established in or originated from Byzantium. Although later on during the reign of Emperor Constantine I he moved the capital of the Roman Empire from Rome to Byzantium. So its wrong for you to say that Rome is an offshoot of Byzantium, unless, you're referring to the Holy Roman Empire, which BTW is not what I was referring to in my post that is the object of baseless ridicule (I was referring to the classical Roman Empire - from where the Byzantine Empire came from).

I hate to say this but your Moderator status seem to have gotten into your head... You seem to be easily dismissive lately and all knowing, 2 enemies of a good conversation.
 
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asianobserve

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Russia does indeed have more in common with the West than Turkey, but it is not a part of the wider Western civilization.

Even you admit that Russia has more in common with the West. The perceived distance or separation of Russia from the "West" is a product or a confusion that resulted from the Cold War era. During the ideological divide divide between "West" (capitalist) and "East" (socialist/Communist) of the Cold War Russia got lumped with the latter (naturally as it was its center) and the meaning of the East got confused. The West and East divide of the Cold War has nothing to do with cultural or civilizational historical perspective but was centered on political and economic divide. That's why I said earlier in discussing "West" versus "East" we must distinguish from what perspective do we want the conversation to take off, civilizational or the Cold War perspective.
 

pmaitra

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You've been acting like a pain in the as# lately. I said Byzantine Empire not Byzantium. They're also different. The former is an Empire that came out of the Roman Empire while the latter is a place established by Greeks and later on renamed Constantinople (once the capital of the Roman Empire).

Byzantium is not the capital of the Classical Greek civilization. It is a province established by Greek colonists at the height of the Classical Greek era. The Roman Empire was not established in or originated from Byzantium. Although later on during the reign of Emperor Constantine I he moved the capital of the Roman Empire from Rome to Byzantium. So its wrong for you to say that Rome is an offshoot of Byzantium, unless, you're referring to the Holy Roman Empire, which BTW is not what I was referring to in my post that is the object of baseless ridicule (I was referring to the classical Roman Empire - from where the Byzantine Empire came from).
  • Byzantium is/was a city, was the capital of the Byzantine Empire.
  • Rome is/was a city, was the capital of the Roman Empire.
  • Persepolis is/was a city, was the capital of the Persian Empire (Achaemenid to be precise; not to be confused with other Persian Empires).


When we say Rome, oftentimes, we refer to the Empire. An Empire can be a republic at the same time. I meant in the context of the Empire, not the city.

Anyway, you said that Byzantine Empire was an offshoot of the Roman Empire. However, if you see, Christianity spread in the northbound direction. The Roman Empire than existed before was an idolatrous and polytheistic Empire. In the context of Christianity, Byzantium was the first Christian Empire, and Rome was the second. I have said this before in this thread, but I just wanted to clarify. Therefore, Byzantium cannot be an offshoot of Rome, rather, the other way around. The Romans also adjusted Christmas Day, so, it is easier to argue, that Rome was an offshoot of Byzantium.
 

asianobserve

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In the context of Christianity, Byzantium was the first Christian Empire, and Rome was the second. I have said this before in this thread, but I just wanted to clarify. Therefore, Byzantium cannot be an offshoot of Rome, rather, the other way around. The Romans also adjusted Christmas Day, so, it is easier to argue, that Rome was an offshoot of Byzantium.
(emphaisis supplied)

Please do not interchange Byzantium (a place) and the Byzantine Empire. Emperor Constantine I was a classical Roman Emperor not a Byzantine Emperor. At that time he transferred the capital of the Roman Empire from Rome to Byzantium the Roman Empire was still ruled by 1 emperor.
 

pmaitra

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(emphaisis supplied)

Please do not interchange Byzantium (a place) and the Byzantine Empire. Emperor Constantine I was a classical Roman Emperor not a Byzantine Emperor. At that time he transferred the capital of the Roman Empire from Rome to Byzantium the Roman Empire was still ruled by 1 emperor.
Ok, so when people say "Rome was a Republic," means only the city of Rome, right? The Empire was called Byzantine Empire, because it's capital was Byzantium.

Read nicely:
Byzantium is the name given to both the state and the culture of the Eastern Roman Empire in the middle ages.
Link: Internet History Sourcebooks

Now back to the discussion. Rome has existed as an Empire in many different segments. The most notable, and distinct, are, (1) pagan Rome, (2) Christian Rome, (3) Holy Roman Empire. Pagan Rome was actually opposite to the latter two in many religious aspects, and this happened after Christianity had spread to Anatolia (Byzantium).

Now do you understand why you were confusing between Rome and Rome? You are treating all the Roman Empires as one single entity, which it was not.
 

asianobserve

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Now do you understand why you were confusing between Rome and Rome? You are treating all the Roman Empires as one single entity, which it was not.

I did not treat Rome as a single entity, you're the one who loosely used that term. That's why if you care to read back by previous posts I used "Roman Empire" and the "Holy Roman Empire" since they are different.
 
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pmaitra

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I did not treat Rome as a single entity, you're the one who used that term. That's why if you care to read back by previous posts I used "Roman Empire" and the "Holy Roman Empire" since they are different.
Yes, I used the term, and will continue to use it.

Do you still think Rome was an offshoot of Byzantium, or was it the other way around?

Heck, forget about Christianity, even in the pre-Christian era, most Roman philosophy and theology originated form Greece and Anatolia. Your arrow is pointing exactly in the opposite direction bud!
 

asianobserve

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Yes, I used the term, and will continue to use it.

Do you still think Rome was an offshoot of Byzantium, or was it the other way around.

Heck, forget about Christianity, even in the pre-Christian era, most Roman philosophy and theology originated form Greece and Anatolia. Your arrow is pointing exactly in the opposite direction bud!

You're confused because you did not follow my exchanges with civ. We were talking about Russia in the context of East and West and he is arguing that Russia is part of the East. I argued that on a civilizational context and that Russia is part of the West (Western World).
 

pmaitra

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You're confused because you did not follow my exchanges with civ. We were talking about Russia in the context of East and West and he is arguing that Russia is part of the East. I argued that on a civilizational context and that Russia is part of the West (Western World).
Ok, and in the context of Russia, I have taken a centrist stand.

BTW, is Byzantium an offshoot of Rome, or is Rome an offshoot of Byzantium? In either case, what is Rome? Polytheistic Idolatrous Rome, or Christian Monotheistic Rome? Make up your mind first.
 

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