For the simple reason that those nations are not as diverse as India. Look at countries with a more diverse population and they do practice diverse laws. Russia for example allows sharia law in many of its parts, and those laws are far stricter than India.
Toronto Hindus oppose Muslim prayers at school
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Most students wear it under their clothes so that third party excuse is far fetched. And daggers and hunting knives are widely available at Canadian stores, so its naive to think that by banning sikh students from wearing kirpans, they will not be brought to school and used by those who wish to use such weapons.
Yes, but Russia also has experienced sectarian-ethnic insurgencies fed by religious nationalism, and has decisively used its army to crush it when necessary. They don't allow anybody else to set up a parallel state. If you give an inch to some there, they will take a yard. There are plenty of Muslim countries with sizeable non-Muslim populations, but they invariably suppress their minorities. Look at East Pakistan, Southern Sudan, Malaysia, Indonesia and even Bosnia.
Again, the notion that any concern about the Kirpan is motivated by racism is simply stubborn ignorance. Knives and firearms are universally considered weapons. Try boarding a plane anywhere in the world, and you'll see the same response. These regulations were put in place long before any Indians came to show concern about them - they certainly were not put into place because of Indians. In some districts in the US, schools even have metal detectors. These practical concerns can't simply be turned on their heads to accommodate the arbitrariness of religion - sorry, but there is such a thing as reasonable restrictions on religious tenets and practices.
Like I said, I could found a religion tomorrow which requires me to wear concealed firearms wherever I go. Others will not accommodate me - and not merely out of petty desire to offend me.
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False sense of superiority tag seems more apt for you imo. Universal principles ? according to who ? you ? not everyone thinks or shares the same beliefs as you. And unlike you i wont force them to follow my beliefs. If there beliefs aren't hurting anyone else then why bother ?
As i have said already i dont care what people do when they come to canada...i see tronic posted that the Muslim Canadian Congress is opposed to the prayer but no you will use the same brush for all muslims. You are one of those people who thinks everything western is automatically better than everything Indian by virtue of it being western.
You've used the phrase "separation of church and state" countless times now...are baba's & mullahs all ministers now in India ?
Virendra
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I agree, the article seems deliberately provocative. Why only Hindu organizations protest is covered? These people always like to paint it Hindu vs. Muslim I got it !!
This isn't specific to Hindus in anyway. It is a matter of seperating or mixing the religion and school.
Regards,
Virendra
LETHALFORCE
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Canadian media is copying British media where everyone is asian until an issue the British want to instigate like Kashmir then they are separate.
You peddle the false notion that all beliefs are equal. If your neighbor across the street is beating his wife, you'll say "Who am I to criticize him or intervene? He does according to his beliefs, and I live according to mine" - that notion simply isn't good enough to sustain a society, which offers an explanation as to why India's is so ramshackle and full of suffering. I don't see people from other developed countries around the world flocking to immigrate to India. You may put stubborn pride aside for a moment to consider they may have some well-founded reasons for not wanting to live there.
If everyone is driving on the same highway, then everybody has to be following the same traffic rules and regulations. To allow anyone to drive any way as he pleases, would lead to chaos. Likewise, when people are sharing the society and the same space, they have to follow a common basic set of rules based on pragmatism. Canadians and Americans are quite rightly proud of their constitutions, and the long heritage of civility these are based on.
Yes, the Canadian Muslim Congress is indeed opposed to the establishment of prayer in Canadian schools. The Canadian Muslim Congress is headed by Tariq Fatah, who is widely attacked and reviled by the Muslim community in Canada. He was only able to recover the name "Canadian Muslim Congress" for his group after suing to get it back from a larger Muslim organization. So basically, he is like Abdul Kalam - well liked by rest of society except his own ethnic group, who regard him as a heretic. Fortunately, he is like me, and doesn't back down in the face of shallow superficial opposition.
The fools who make up the ruling party at the Centre in New Delhi are self-serving rentable mercenaries who don't give much of a damn for any ethics of any kind, leave alone standing up for universal principles under assault from medievalists. On the contrary, they seem to be heavily invested in vote bank politics, which has only emboldened them to discard the definitions of secularism established by the civilized world in favour of their own homegrown politically-contrived facsimiles.
Separation of Church and State exists for a reason - and not some arbitrary reason, but a good one - a fact which is lost on those who weren't raised in a genuine secular environment in the first place. By trampling over this "small thing" as you seem to view it, this will lay the groundwork for much greater challenges to modern standards of ethics, tolerance and social cohesion in the future. It's the thin end of the wedge.
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LETHALFORCE
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This separation of church and state is always a big issue in North America. A few years ago in the town I live in,the fire department placed a cross outside the station during Christmas. A jewish group sued the town and it was removed. It caused some temporary bitter feelings in town,but it is an example of how important the separation is. It is not preventing anyone from practicing their freedom of religion just making sure the government is not involved.
Public schools are part of the state. Certainly, when it comes to private schools, everyone is free to do what they want, within reasonable standards. Naturally, there are private Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Sikh, and Hindu schools. But when it comes to public money and state-run systems, then clear limits apply. The state cannot be in the business of funding any religion or religious activity. People can fund that and partake in that on their own time and their own money. The state-funded public schools should only be in the business of teaching the 3 R's.
Insurgency? Parallel state? Suppression of minorities? You're going on a tangent.
Huh? Who said anything about racism? Ignorance is not on my part sanjay. You are the one walking into this debate with pre-conceived notions.
Errr, what? I thought we were here discussing your personal views regarding the Kirpan. If you wish to drag the Canadian government into this, than let me assure you, the Canadian government gives me the full freedom to wear a Kirpan to school, work, or even inside the Canadian Parliament. You would gain much from learning about the laws of the land upon which you reside. Canadian government has never banned the Kirpan. There have been several lawsuits against it, yes, but none have stood in court. The Canadian charter gives Sikhs the freedom to wear a kirpan. Lets not accuse others of ignorance when you yourself portray the same.
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Lets cut the BS. One man does not make an organization. On what basis do you state that the Muslim Canadian Congress (its not the Canadian Muslim Congress as you put it) is widely attacked and reviled by the Muslim community in Canada?? The MCC is one organization which goes head on against the Islamist groups in North America. And yes, it is attacked and reviled by these Islamist groups, just as much as it attacks and reviles them. Just spare your BS about tagging the entire "Muslim community" along with the Islamist groups. Clearly, you are trying to vilify the Muslims.sanjay said:
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Dinku brother, prayers are not the problem. The problem is that schools are suppose to be secular, meaning, no religion, only studying. Pray at home, than come to school. Christians used to pray before, but now Christian prayers are not allowed in schools, so that is why groups such as Canadian Hindu Advocacy, Muslim Canadian Congress, Jewish Defense League and many secular groups united against such. The contention being that private faith should stay out of public schools.
What I see is your own knee-jerk opportunistic response. Everyone who makes constructive criticisms is accused of trying to "vilify", etc. I know plenty of Muslim friends who feel that Tariq Fatah's organization is "anti-Muslim", a "tool of those who want to discredit Islam", etc, etc. There is a strong resistance to criticism, even when it comes from within.
So you're Sikh yourself then - I have plenty of Sikh relatives - but this isn't about trying to offend Sikhism, but rather about understanding the practical limitations in accommodating religious practices and customs. Again, you fail to understand that religious can have any arbitrary practice or custom included. Some people think it's okay to ostracize, attack or murder homosexuals because of religious imperatives. It's not okay under Canadian law - yet we all know there have been instances of such things. And then when convicted of breaking the law, such people invariably cry 'racism'/'discrimination' or some such.
Any man will seek to justify his own religious practices at all costs, and twist logic to do so - nothing surprising there. As an atheist, I frankly feel I'm more likely to be objective on the subject than you. Assimilation is important for social cohesion. True diversity is the diversity of individuals - a diversity which can be obscured by ethnic tribalism and tectonics.
Again, I feel that it's entirely legitimate for the state to impose restrictions on what religious practices are acceptable. Sikhism, Islam, Hinduism, etc, etc were born in much earlier times, prior to the modern era, when practical consideration for safety, or secularism and separation of Church and State simply weren't there. We live in modern times now, so get with modern life.
There are legitimate instances where the courts can assert jurisdiction over the practice of religion. The Muslim Canadian Congress / Canadian Muslim Congress / whichever (as if I pay enough constant attention to all of these guys to care) is in rivalry with the other group which was led by Dr Mohamed Elmasry, and those guys get more support. (I knew ElMasry as an associate electrical engineering prof at University of Waterloo, and the instant he arrived on campus, there were constant protests on campus over Palestine, Kashmir, etc. The first time he tried to hold a big seminar on campus over Kashmir, I got so many Indians to show up to it that we outnumbered them by a very wide margin. He was forced to be very measured in his comments, given the large opposing audience.)
The main thing Tariq Fatah had going for him was that he was a radio talkshow host on CFRB, but meanwhile ElMasry's group was the one which had more support on the ground. You'd always see more letters of support being written in for him in the Toronto Star or even the KW-Record.
So you're Sikh yourself then - I have plenty of Sikh relatives - but this isn't about trying to offend Sikhism, but rather about understanding the practical limitations in accommodating religious practices and customs. Again, you fail to understand that religious can have any arbitrary practice or custom included. Some people think it's okay to ostracize, attack or murder homosexuals because of religious imperatives. It's not okay under Canadian law - yet we all know there have been instances of such things. And then when convicted of breaking the law, such people invariably cry 'racism'/'discrimination' or some such.
Any man will seek to justify his own religious practices at all costs, and twist logic to do so - nothing surprising there. As an atheist, I frankly feel I'm more likely to be objective on the subject than you. Assimilation is important for social cohesion. True diversity is the diversity of individuals - a diversity which can be obscured by ethnic tribalism and tectonics.
Again, I feel that it's entirely legitimate for the state to impose restrictions on what religious practices are acceptable. Sikhism, Islam, Hinduism, etc, etc were born in much earlier times, prior to the modern era, when practical consideration for safety, or secularism and separation of Church and State simply weren't there. We live in modern times now, so get with modern life.
There are legitimate instances where the courts can assert jurisdiction over the practice of religion. The Muslim Canadian Congress / Canadian Muslim Congress / whichever (as if I pay enough constant attention to all of these guys to care) is in rivalry with the other group which was led by Dr Mohamed Elmasry, and those guys get more support. (I knew ElMasry as an associate electrical engineering prof at University of Waterloo, and the instant he arrived on campus, there were constant protests on campus over Palestine, Kashmir, etc. The first time he tried to hold a big seminar on campus over Kashmir, I got so many Indians to show up to it that we outnumbered them by a very wide margin. He was forced to be very measured in his comments, given the large opposing audience.)
The main thing Tariq Fatah had going for him was that he was a radio talkshow host on CFRB, but meanwhile ElMasry's group was the one which had more support on the ground. You'd always see more letters of support being written in for him in the Toronto Star or even the KW-Record.
Meanwhile, as for why Ron Banerjee's group has recieved some publicity for their opposition to the school prayer - it should be obvious. White caucasian people are afraid to be seen alone in criticizing this move by the Muslim community, and so naturally they're eager to include or publicize the support of any other group they can find on this. Therefore they will give as much mention as they can to Ron Banerjee, to say "see? others are also with us on this issue"
But that doesn't make Ron Banerjee's position extreme on this issue. He is clearly citing the need for separation of Church and State, and has stated his arguments on those lines. Jewish groups have also stated their arguments along those lines.
But that doesn't make Ron Banerjee's position extreme on this issue. He is clearly citing the need for separation of Church and State, and has stated his arguments on those lines. Jewish groups have also stated their arguments along those lines.
There was nothing constructive about stacking the entire Muslim community with the Islamist groups. And your friend represents the entire Muslim community as much as my alcohol chugging Muslim friends.
No one is crying 'racism', you are the one crying 'public safety'. And no one is breaking the law. The Canadian government does not have a problem with Kirpans, it is only you. A Sikh kid wearing a Kirpan to school is not breaking any Canadian law. Infact, Sikh MPs wear kirpans inside the Canadian Parliament. So no one is crying "racism". You are the only one having an issue here.
Again, ignorance, assumptions and pre-concieved notions. Atheism is as much a belief system as Theism. I too labelled myself an atheist all throughout by highschool years. This does not mean that I was more objective than, than I am today. Rather, it is to the contrary.
And such restrictions must conform to a nation's constitution. Religion is very much a part of modern life.
lol. Elmasry is a joke. You seriously cannot say that larger portion of Muslims support him. The man runs an organization single handedly not allowing elections or any accountability to hold. MCC is a far more transparent organization run and supported by thousands of muslims. It is not a one man show, unlike Elmasry. I have many muslim friends in uni of waterloo itself who hate this man's guts.
And secondly, lol. You go to Uni for Waterloo? And that too electrical engineering. Which year, if you don't mind?
Simply put, their support has never been measured. Elmasry holds those seminars and thus he has those chaps swarming the place. MCC does not. Only difference.
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I'm saying that there is not enough energy devoted by the Muslim community in repudiating these groups. Indeed, if the wider Muslim community repudiated extremism as much as other religious groups do it, then Muslim extremists would not exist in the numbers that they do.
No, you're the one turning every quote from me into a kirpan quote, and relating everything to the kirpan issue, which shows your inordinate fixation on the issue. I'm saying that people can be legitimately opposed to students carrying a kirpan at school without automatically being racist. There's a legitimate public safety concern. Those who adhere to a religious practice will automatically tend to protect that practice, regardless of what it is - and they may do so to the point of irrationality.
Atheism is based on logical reductionism and economy of belief - ie. Occam's Razor - as such, it is not merely 'another belief'.
When Man's powers of reason and technical knowledge of the world were poor, then he invented and relied upon faith to explain the world to him. But as our powers of reason and physical knowledge of the world have grown, there is no longer any reason to blindly believe that the world was created in 7 days, or that the Sun travels across the sky in a magical chariot, etc, etc. These things have simply been handed down as cultural traditions.
It's oddly conspicuous how the countries where blind and unconstrained acceptance of religion are the strongest and atheism has the lowest presence are also the countries with the lowest quality of life, and where people are trying to emigrate out of, whereas countries where religion is kept in check by laws separating Church and State and where atheism has largest presence are also the countries which enjoy the highest living standards and are also the countries where the backward people are trying desperately to immigrate into. There's a reason for that -
The bulk of Muslims don't participate in either of these 2 groups, but I'd still say that ElMasry's views are closer to the median than Tariq Fatah's are. There is too much conservatism in the Muslim community, and not enough reformist views.
I went to University of Waterloo a long time ago - which is when ElMasry first showed up. I was in a different engineering, and it was he who was a prof in Electrical Engineering - that's all you need to know.
Whenever I see Muslim groups mention Kashmir, they only mention it in a way that is anti-Indian. When Indians show up to oppose the pro-separatist events, I feel that Muslims under-represent themselves.
When organizations like OIC attack India, where are our Indian Muslims repudiating them, and telling them their activities have nothing to do with Islam? When I see that Islam is so frequently invoked to attack India, as it was used to partition it, then naturally it says a lot about Islam. It's an ideology, and not just a religion, which affects its ability to coexist with other ethnicities and religions.
Ultimately, you can't legislate credibility - how much society respects you depends on how much you give back to society.
First of all "Canadian Hindu Advocacy"is like a 10 member group that is routinely involved in anti-sikh and anti-muslim events in Canada. Canadian Hindu Advocacy Group Spreading Hatred Towards Sikhs and Muslims | Vancouver Media Co-op
The title should be fringe Hindu group protests muslim prayers.
The largest Hindu group in Canada is Hindu Canadian Network which has good relations with other Muslim and Sikh groups and holds interfaith dialogue sessions as well.
Some points from the news reports posted are
* The school is located in a small suburb which is heavily migrant and mostly muslim. About 90% of the schools students are Muslims
* It was the Principal of the school that requested the prayers be held on school premises to save time for students who went to pray during lunch time at a local mosque. The Principal is a non-Muslim. The local Muslims DID NOT request for this. It was the Principals' idea who thought it would reduce the time spent in going to the local mosque during lunch hour which led to some students missing classes at times.
* The practice was ongoing for the last three years and no one complained before this. Again, no local Muslim group lobbied for this privilege. It was the idea of the principal of the school who again is a non-Muslim
* There is no compulsion for students to attend prayers. And in fact majority of the students DO NOT attend.
* Parents basically don't care one way or another although they would prefer the time saved in saying Friday prayers in school. If the privilege is withdrawn as per law. The practice will be to revert to what happened 3 years ago. Ofcourse, the Principal must be scratching his head at what he has done and whether he did the right thing in all this.
* On food, all vegetarian food is also considered halal too. Moreover, Kosher meat is considered halal meat as well. So arrangements can be made if Hindus are ok with Kosher meat although I don't know if this is a religious requirement as I thought Hindus usually avoid meat especially beef.
The title should be fringe Hindu group protests muslim prayers.
The largest Hindu group in Canada is Hindu Canadian Network which has good relations with other Muslim and Sikh groups and holds interfaith dialogue sessions as well.
Some points from the news reports posted are
* The school is located in a small suburb which is heavily migrant and mostly muslim. About 90% of the schools students are Muslims
* It was the Principal of the school that requested the prayers be held on school premises to save time for students who went to pray during lunch time at a local mosque. The Principal is a non-Muslim. The local Muslims DID NOT request for this. It was the Principals' idea who thought it would reduce the time spent in going to the local mosque during lunch hour which led to some students missing classes at times.
* The practice was ongoing for the last three years and no one complained before this. Again, no local Muslim group lobbied for this privilege. It was the idea of the principal of the school who again is a non-Muslim
* There is no compulsion for students to attend prayers. And in fact majority of the students DO NOT attend.
* Parents basically don't care one way or another although they would prefer the time saved in saying Friday prayers in school. If the privilege is withdrawn as per law. The practice will be to revert to what happened 3 years ago. Ofcourse, the Principal must be scratching his head at what he has done and whether he did the right thing in all this.
* On food, all vegetarian food is also considered halal too. Moreover, Kosher meat is considered halal meat as well. So arrangements can be made if Hindus are ok with Kosher meat although I don't know if this is a religious requirement as I thought Hindus usually avoid meat especially beef.
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bhogta
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Ejar , just because population is 90 % Muslim does not mean they start this thing.
If that school is Canadian government school hen that should be stop. If this school is a local people property then they can do that. If this is going on for last 3 years then that not make it right also.
If that school is Canadian government school hen that should be stop. If this school is a local people property then they can do that. If this is going on for last 3 years then that not make it right also.
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