To solve Kashmir, see LoC as border: PM's special envoy Lambah

[Agustya]

India: Repeal Armed Forces Special Powers Act | Human Rights Watch

ISI sponsored the exodus of Kashmiri Pandits. Therefore India has all the right to take such measures. I'm sorry that your brothers are being killed like dogs after crossing the LoC.

 

[Neo]

Where does it mentions ( the link you provided) that it's 'state sponsored terrorism' as you suggested?

It merely states '
Ppabusive' while I have used stronger word 'Draconian'.

If I say my little niece wakes up at night 'terrified' ( another synonym for terror/terrorizing) over nightmare, can her nightmare be termed 'terrorist'?

Similarly, everything that terrorizes citizenry can't be said 'terrorist' activity but, whatever a terrorist does do certainly 'terrorize' citizenry.

Being born and brought up in a western country, I find it hard that you would err in usage of word. And present such a meek response through a link that doesn't even reinforce your point of view even if read in between the lines.

Give it a better shot, will you?

I think IA is redefining and demonsterating terrorism in Kashmir. Fast forward this video to 01:20 where a werstern journalist tells about attrocities he's been witness to:

 

[Neo]

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=o7n54AAZnDU&has_verified=1&client=mv-google&layout=mobile

 

[tarunraju]

LoC is already seen by both sides as an international border. It's also patrolled as such.

That said, India must not work toward any solution that makes LoC the official international border. LoC gives both sides flexibility in times of conflict. When either side makes territorial gains or occupies land, they're technically not doing a "Crimea" as per international law. It's incumbent on either to restore the shape of LoC, and the area of Kashmir administered. It's a double-edged sword, but one that can be very beneficial when you have a political and military leadership that has both brains and guts. Pakistanis seldom demonstrated brains, and Indians seldom guts.

 

[ladder]

I think IA is redefining and demonsterating terrorism in Kashmir. Fast forward this video to 01:20 where a werstern journalist tells about attrocities he's been witness to:

Don't deflect dear, atrocities aren't terrorism. Please provide a credible link where it is stated AFSPA is 'state sponsored terrorism'

Atrocities are carried out by normal police also, heard the name 3rd degree?

Also, more stronger laws are present/ were present in India. TADA, MoCoCA, POTA etc. Unless you term them as state sponsored terrorism.

HRW also classified 'baton charge' where people jumped off a bridge and stampede happened also brutal. Was that 'state sponsored terrorism'?

Common man, we don't use 'teaser gun', good old cane is a effective weapon though, journalists may think it 'atrocious'.

So, credible link please on. ' AFSPA is state sponsored terrorism'. That is a minimum requirement.

 

[Neo]

Don't deflect dear, atrocities aren't terrorism. Please provide a credible link where it is stated AFSPA is 'state sponsored terrorism'

Atrocities are carried out by normal police also, heard the name 3rd degree?

Also, more stronger laws are present/ were present in India. TADA, MoCoCA, POTA etc. Unless you term them as state sponsored terrorism.

HRW also classified 'baton charge' where people jumped off a bridge and stampede happened also brutal. Was that 'state sponsored terrorism'?

Common man, we don't use 'teaser gun', good old cane is a effective weapon though, journalists may think it 'atrocious'.

So, credible link please on. ' AFSPA is state sponsored terrorism'. That is a minimum requirement.

If the video showing disturbing attorcities by Indian Army are not enough than what is? We are not talking about isolated incidents but such practices have become norm under AFSPA.

Ask the poor 82 year woman who got raped or the cricket playing youth who got beaten up if they care about some fancy word like state sponsored terrorism. They got mollested by the Army for no reason and the Army represents state's authority.

Read more about AFSPA in Grace Pelly's report called:
State Terrorism: Torture, Extra-Judicial Killings and Disappearences in India.

Grace Pelly was a HRW attache in India.

 

[ladder]

If the video showing disturbing attorcities by Indian Army are not enough than what is? We are not talking about isolated incidents but such practices have become norm under AFSPA.

Ask the poor 82 year woman who got raped or the cricket playing youth who got beaten up if they care about some fancy word like state sponsored terrorism. They got mollested by the Army for no reason and the Army represents state's authority.

Read more about AFSPA in Grace Pelly's report called:
State Terrorism: Torture, Extra-Judicial Killings and Disappearences in India.

Grace Pelly was a HRW attache in India.

Board of Trustees

pasted for you the trustees of HRLN. It's only a nondescript group. You can find thousand such group of apologists.

And Grace Pelly, is not a authority is she? And does he use the term?

And she is with HRLN and not HRW.

Don't confuse.

If I try to search the same for Balochistan and Pakistan Army, I will reach UN.

So, it's not a credible link.

And your perception doesn't matter. There is well established what is HRW issues and what is Terrorism and Genocide.
Even, genocide is not termed as terrorism.

What you are showing/ presenting is HR abuses/excesses which cannot be termed as 'state sponsored terrorism' as you suggested earlier.

 

[thethinker]

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=o7n54AAZnDU&has_verified=1&client=mv-google&layout=mobile

Videos that start with something like "Radical Mullah" surely must be the gospel truth. You have some rather interesting sources.

 

[Neo]

Indian Army abusing and killing elderly people.or youth for no reason, how would you describe.it?
Who or what does the army represent?

Funny thing about this forum is that.every Tom, Dick or Harry who writes a single anti-Pakistan or anti-Islam article becomes a divine authority but Indians need an Indian source to believe anything that is anti-india

Live in.denial if you want but thousands of innocent.civilians are murdered and slaughtered already in IOK and the day will.come that they will.say NO to such attrocities.

 

[Neo]

Videos that start with something like "Radical Mullah" surely must be the gospel truth. You have some rather interesting sources.

I knew someone would say.that, what took.yiu so long? See Indian Army in action, what do have to say about it?

 

[thethinker]

Copy pasting outlier incidents way back from early 90s when insurgency was at peak in valley, slap some rioting videos in between and there ya go : The big bad IA in Kashmir must be removed!

 

[ladder]

Indian Army abusing and killing elderly people.or youth for no reason, how would you describe.it?
Who or what does the army represent?

Funny thing about this forum is that.every Tom, Dick or Harry who writes a single anti-Pakistan or anti-Islam article becomes a divine authority but Indians need an Indian source to believe anything that is anti-india

Live in.denial if you want but thousands of innocent.civilians are murdered and slaughtered already in IOK and the day will.come that they will.say NO to such attrocities.

So, HR abuses are now 'terrorism' ?

BTW, Now you should also accept all 'think tank's which states such things about Baluchistan and FATA and SWAT.

Now, why did you tried to peddle HRLN author as HRW attache on India? Was it rather deliberate.?

We don't pump bullets into any journalist who's writing on such issues and who's POV doesn't match army narrative.

Kashmir is free to visit to any Tom Dick and Harry to visit and interview people and write reports. That says a lot.

900 thousand Army in Kashmir couldn't stop Grace Kelly from writing a report? Speaks volume.

BTW you called terrorism from both sides. You failed to prove one side, BTW who is the other side.


====================

You didn't comment on the trustees of the HRLN.

 

[Neo]

So, HR abuses are now 'terrorism' ?

BTW, Now you should also accept all 'think tank's which states such things about Baluchistan and FATA and SWAT.

Now, why did you tried to peddle HRLN author as HRW attache on India? Was it rather deliberate.?

We don't pump bullets into any journalist who's writing on such issues and who's POV doesn't match army narrative.

Kashmir is free to visit to any Tom Dick and Harry to visit and interview people and write reports. That says a lot.

900 thousand Army in Kashmir couldn't stop Grace Kelly from writing a report? Speaks volume.

BTW you called terrorism from both sides. You failed to prove one side, BTW who is the other side.


====================

You didn't comment on the trustees of the HRLN.

IOC is nothing but a state run at gunpoint and the population is being terrorised by every definition.

Grace Pelly's designation doesn't matter, her report does.

Balochistan and Fata cannit be compared with Kashmir, they are not disputed territories so don't derail the thread.

I donot consider moral support for Kashmiri people's struggle to be wring but militancy should stop. Violence is never the solution.

 

[Bhadra]

Indian Army abusing and killing elderly people.or youth for no reason, how would you describe.it?
Who or what does the army represent?

Funny thing about this forum is that.every Tom, Dick or Harry who writes a single anti-Pakistan or anti-Islam article becomes a divine authority but Indians need an Indian source to believe anything that is anti-india

Live in.denial if you want but thousands of innocent.civilians are murdered and slaughtered already in IOK and the day will.come that they will.say NO to such attrocities.

Oh ! The thread is about converting LOC into border but you (seem to be ) ISI man have deliberately derailed it ...

 

[Neo]

Oh ! The thread is about converting LOC into border but you (seem to be ) ISI man have deliberately derailed it ...

No I didn't! My first reply was about Sir Ray's remarks about terrorism.

 

[ladder]

IOC is nothing but a state run at gunpoint and the population is being terrorised by every definition.

Grace Pelly's designation doesn't matter, her report does.

Balochistan and Fata cannit be compared with Kashmir, they are not disputed territories so don't derail the thread.

I donot consider moral support for Kashmiri people's struggle to be wring but militancy should stop. Violence is never the solution.

J&K is run on the gunpoint where everyone is free to visit, conduct survey, interview people and write reports. Might be that the business end of the barrel is pointing to some where else. isn't it?

A terrorized population is isn't a indication of 'state sponsored terrorism'. And you have not proven the presence of one. If you feel so, as your country's people, your govt. should spend more money to help liberate Kashmir, and we will be very happy about it.

Grace Kelly's designation does matter as her report. Who knows, she might have wrote a report without field trip to Kashmir? I don't see her report being vetted by institutes of prominence. WKK groups of JNU jholawala NGO group is a non starter to associated with to write a report to being with.

Oh, so now a territory has to be a disputed one to have 'terrorism' in it? If that is a pre requisite then the presence of TTP and LeJ will make Karachi and Lahore a disputed territory.

And, how does terrorism associate it with disputed territory? Does that make BLA a terrorist organisation only because it doesn't operate out of a UN mandated disputed territory?

In that case Taliban and TTP aren't terrorist organisation, as they operate closer to disputed Durrand line. Fair enough.

Who stops you from supporting Kashmirs people? Support them morally, monetarily and militarily. You have been doing so, and continuance of it is hardly a statement to make.

But, whatever you do, please give my brothers in Gilgit , their wheat subsidy at the earliest.

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[Indo-Pacific Security]

The problem of LoC or Kashmir is not going to be solved in immediate future. You need strong and entrenched governments on both sides to be able to take considerable risk. Lambah and his predecessors have done their diplomatic part and this dialogue has been going on for last 60+ years, so expecting an immediate solution would be foolhardy.

Rather, it would be better for India to think clearly on this issue and take some concrete steps:

1. Some sort of "No Aggression Pact" can be signed between both countries, lowering the tension. India and China also have serious border problems but that border has been violence free for quite a while. So this pact could be an urgent and immediate step and any violation of this pact should be considered a deal breaker for any further movement on border solution.

2. Pakistan Army (Not Pakistan Government) will have to let go of its terrorism as a state tool of aggression. Without this, no Indian government ever will trust Pakistan and all talks about any solution would be a marathon race of headless chicken.

3. Say for minimum ten years, both countries forget mutual violent distrust and focus only on trade and upliftment of their people. What matters more for India is its economic growth and for that we need one less tension, from whichever side possible.

4. In Case, if Pakistan believes otherwise and is not ready for any "Credible" CBM which will lower tension and let both governments focus on economy, then India needs to be clear about its objectives in the sub-continent. Pakistan is militarily a no-body now and even in next 20 years will have no wherewithal to fight with India. It has to take care of its terrorism problem, radical mullahs, and many more who want to steal its nukes and use it on Rawalpindi (Read - Khorasani).

5. If the above case is true, India can simply ignore Pakistan for a while. Simple and plain - IGNORE them. The terrorism is not a novelty anymore and Indian police and armed forces have become efficient and professional enough to deal with them. They can keep eliminating terrorists which infiltrate or emerge. There is no other way through which Pakistan can be a threat. Moreover, Pakistan ISI knows that another Mumbai type attack would invite war, without any iota of doubt.

Meanwhile, India should maintain its focus on economic and military aspects of the country. Its not a good idea to let a small country become the central focus of our military and foreign policy. Its time to think like a major power.