The Tyrant Diaries

[Raj30]

The Tyrant Diaries | Francois Gautier
From the memoirs of a French adventurer who served at Tipu's court

In December 8, 1988, an old trunk was discovered in the attic of the house of Elaine de la Taille Tretinville, who died at 91 in her 14th arrondissement flat in Paris. She was a descendant of the family of Les Ripaud Montaudeverts. Among the contents was a manuscript in the hand of the most famous of the Montaudeverts—Francois Fidele Ripaud de Montaudevert. It starts with these words (in old French): "I, Francois Ripaud, am old today, but I want to tell you the true story of Tipu Sultan."

Born in Saffre, northwestern France, in a middle-class family, Ripaud enrolled as a sailor, aged 11, on the Le Palmier. After many adventures, he settled in Mauritius, where he married and had two children. In 1797, hearing of Le Grand Tipu Sultan, he sailed from Mauritius (then called Ile de France) to Mangalore and sought a meeting with the sultan, promising "to raise a large force in Mau-ritius and put it at Tipu's disposal". Tipu, who had an early connection with the French, having been instructed in warfare by French officers in the employ of his father, jumped at the idea and gave Ripaud letters of credential. On August 19, 1798, Ripaud came back to Mauritius and made a proclamation seeking volunteers for an "expedition to travel to Mysore to assist Tipu in his resistance to British encroachment in south India". It must be noted that, two months earlier, Napoleon had invaded Egypt and dreamt of establishing a junction with India against the British, so the governor of Mauritius received instructions to collaborate and Ripaud was able to sail to Mangalore with a shipload of French soldiers who were welcomed there like heroes.

Life at Tipu's court was a dream for our hardy adventurer, but he began to have some misgivings. In his diary entry of January 14, 1799, he writes: "I'm disturbed by Tipu Sultan's treatment of these most gentle souls, the Hindus. During the siege of Mangalore, Tipu's soldiers daily exposed the heads of many innocent Brahmins within sight from the fort for the Zamorin and his Hindu followers to see." Even so, he cast his doubts aside and put up for Tipu's benefit a dem-onstration of the egalitarian political ideas of France: in 1799, a French paper entitled 'Proceedings of a Jacobin Club formed at Seringapatnam by the French Soldiers in the Corps Commanded by Francois Ripaud' was found in Tipu's palace. It listed 59 Frenchmen in the pay of "citizen Tipu" and described a "primary assembly" of May 5, 1797, to elect a president (Ripaud) and other office-bearers. The 'Rights of Man' were proclaimed and the sultan formally received a small delegation from the club.

After this interval, we find another diary entry in which Ripaud is appalled at what he witnessed in Calicut (Kozhikode): "Most of the Hindu men and women were hanged...first mothers were hanged with their children tied to their necks. That barbarian Tipu Sultan tied the naked Christians and Hindus to the legs of elephants and made the elephants move around till the bodies of the helpless victims were torn to pieces. Temples and churches were ordered to be burned down, desecrated and des-troyed. Christian and Hindu women were forced to marry Mohammedans, and similarly, their men (after conversion to Islam) were forced to marry Moha-mm-edan women. Christians who refused to be honoured with Islam were ordered to be killed by hanging immediately." These events were corroborated by Father Bartholomew, a famous Portu-guese traveller, in his memoir, Voyage to East Indies.

Another diary entry of Ripaud says: "To show his ardent devotion and steadfast faith in the Mohammedan religion, Tipu Sultan found Kozhikode to be the most suitable place. Kozhikode was then a centre of Brahmins and had over 7,000 Brahmin families living there. Over 2,000 Brahmin families perished as a result of Tipu Sultan's Islamic cruelties. He did not spare even women and children."

A disgusted Ripaud left Seringapatnam and went back to France, where he obtained captainship of a fine fighting ship, the Shapho. On February 23, 1814, fighting an English frigate, Ripaud had his arm ripped off by a cannon ball. He died the same evening. Even the British, his arch enemies, gave a 21-cannon salute to this brave adventurer, once Tipu Sultan's 'Great White Hope'.

(The writer is editor-in-chief of La Revue de l'Inde. This piece is based on two books: Jean Feildel's A la Mer, en Guerre: Vie du Corsaire Ripaud de Montaudevert and Louis Brunet's Ripaud de Montaudevert: Scenes de la Revolution Francaise a L'ile Bourbon.)

 

[dhananjay1]

Any one who gets his history from outside of the fictional TV serial from Doordarshan knows Tipu for what he was, a Jihadi who killed and converted thousands of Hindus and was proud of it. They actually named the serial 'sword of Tipu Sultan'. The sword had the inscription about how he loved to kill 'unbelievers'. Even Taliban can't outdo Doordarshan if they tried to portray Tipu as a hero. And millions of Hindus know him only from that serial.

 

[arnabmit]

 

[civfanatic]

Something is wrong here.

Siege of Mangalore was conducted in 1783, towards the end of the Second Anglo-Mysore War.

Francois Ripaud visited Mangalore in 1797, and wrote his diary entry on 14 January, 1799, as mentioned in the article.

How did Ripaud "witness" events that took place 14 years before he even arrived in Mangalore?

Oh wait, this article was written by Francois Gautier.

 

[Das ka das]

Something is wrong here.

Siege of Mangalore was conducted in 1783, towards the end of the Second Anglo-Mysore War.

Francois Ripaud visited Mangalore in 1797, and wrote his diary entry on 14 January, 1799, as mentioned in the article.

How did Ripaud "witness" events that took place 14 years before he even arrived in Mangalore?

Oh wait, this article was written by Francois Gautier.

You do know that Iyengars in Mysore to this day do not celebrate Diwali due to Tipu's massacres. He may have been a good ruler to his subjects but he was a jihadi when it came to conquering kafir lands. All the evidence indicates this.

 

[Das ka das]

The Tyrant Diaries | Francois Gautier
From the memoirs of a French adventurer who served at Tipu's court

In December 8, 1988, an old trunk was discovered in the attic of the house of Elaine de la Taille Tretinville, who died at 91 in her 14th arrondissement flat in Paris. She was a descendant of the family of Les Ripaud Montaudeverts. Among the contents was a manuscript in the hand of the most famous of the Montaudeverts—Francois Fidele Ripaud de Montaudevert. It starts with these words (in old French): "I, Francois Ripaud, am old today, but I want to tell you the true story of Tipu Sultan."

Born in Saffre, northwestern France, in a middle-class family, Ripaud enrolled as a sailor, aged 11, on the Le Palmier. After many adventures, he settled in Mauritius, where he married and had two children. In 1797, hearing of Le Grand Tipu Sultan, he sailed from Mauritius (then called Ile de France) to Mangalore and sought a meeting with the sultan, promising "to raise a large force in Mau-ritius and put it at Tipu's disposal". Tipu, who had an early connection with the French, having been instructed in warfare by French officers in the employ of his father, jumped at the idea and gave Ripaud letters of credential. On August 19, 1798, Ripaud came back to Mauritius and made a proclamation seeking volunteers for an "expedition to travel to Mysore to assist Tipu in his resistance to British encroachment in south India". It must be noted that, two months earlier, Napoleon had invaded Egypt and dreamt of establishing a junction with India against the British, so the governor of Mauritius received instructions to collaborate and Ripaud was able to sail to Mangalore with a shipload of French soldiers who were welcomed there like heroes.

Life at Tipu's court was a dream for our hardy adventurer, but he began to have some misgivings. In his diary entry of January 14, 1799, he writes: "I'm disturbed by Tipu Sultan's treatment of these most gentle souls, the Hindus. During the siege of Mangalore, Tipu's soldiers daily exposed the heads of many innocent Brahmins within sight from the fort for the Zamorin and his Hindu followers to see." Even so, he cast his doubts aside and put up for Tipu's benefit a dem-onstration of the egalitarian political ideas of France: in 1799, a French paper entitled 'Proceedings of a Jacobin Club formed at Seringapatnam by the French Soldiers in the Corps Commanded by Francois Ripaud' was found in Tipu's palace. It listed 59 Frenchmen in the pay of "citizen Tipu" and described a "primary assembly" of May 5, 1797, to elect a president (Ripaud) and other office-bearers. The 'Rights of Man' were proclaimed and the sultan formally received a small delegation from the club.

After this interval, we find another diary entry in which Ripaud is appalled at what he witnessed in Calicut (Kozhikode): "Most of the Hindu men and women were hanged...first mothers were hanged with their children tied to their necks. That barbarian Tipu Sultan tied the naked Christians and Hindus to the legs of elephants and made the elephants move around till the bodies of the helpless victims were torn to pieces. Temples and churches were ordered to be burned down, desecrated and des-troyed. Christian and Hindu women were forced to marry Mohammedans, and similarly, their men (after conversion to Islam) were forced to marry Moha-mm-edan women. Christians who refused to be honoured with Islam were ordered to be killed by hanging immediately." These events were corroborated by Father Bartholomew, a famous Portu-guese traveller, in his memoir, Voyage to East Indies.

Another diary entry of Ripaud says: "To show his ardent devotion and steadfast faith in the Mohammedan religion, Tipu Sultan found Kozhikode to be the most suitable place. Kozhikode was then a centre of Brahmins and had over 7,000 Brahmin families living there. Over 2,000 Brahmin families perished as a result of Tipu Sultan's Islamic cruelties. He did not spare even women and children."

A disgusted Ripaud left Seringapatnam and went back to France, where he obtained captainship of a fine fighting ship, the Shapho. On February 23, 1814, fighting an English frigate, Ripaud had his arm ripped off by a cannon ball. He died the same evening. Even the British, his arch enemies, gave a 21-cannon salute to this brave adventurer, once Tipu Sultan's 'Great White Hope'.

(The writer is editor-in-chief of La Revue de l'Inde. This piece is based on two books: Jean Feildel's A la Mer, en Guerre: Vie du Corsaire Ripaud de Montaudevert and Louis Brunet's Ripaud de Montaudevert: Scenes de la Revolution Francaise a L'ile Bourbon.)

Invasion of Kerala was not same as Anglo-Mysore war

 

[civfanatic]

You do know that Iyengars in Mysore to this day do not celebrate Diwali due to Tipu's massacres. He may have been a good ruler to his subjects but he was a jihadi when it came to conquering kafir lands. All the evidence indicates this.

Yes, every Muslim is a jihadi when it comes to conquering kafir lands. Marathas are called "Hindu nationalists" when they looted Hindu temples and monasteries and massacred local populations in South India, while Tipu Sultan is called a barbarian Muslim fanatic when numerous land grants to temples where granted by him. He even built the first church in Mysore at the insistence of the French, which Francois Ripaud apparently ignores.

Tipu Sultan was a far greater ruler than the Nizam of Hyderabad, the Maratha Peshwa, or any other contemporary Indian leader. He was the only one who can be said to have a vision for the future, and was the only one who actively took measures to reform his state. He modernized not only the Mysorean army to make it the most organized and technologically advanced in Asia, capable of going toe-to-toe with even the British corporate mafia, but also the government structures, commerce, industry, and agriculture of Mysore. He curbed the power of the zamindars and oppressive feudal lords and centralized the state authority, which almost all other Indian states failed to do. Even the British travelers themselves who visited Mysore during his reign remark how it was the most prosperous, well-run, and efficient state in India.

Invasion of Kerala was not same as Anglo-Mysore war

Mysorean rule over Kerala ended in 1792 with the Treaty of Seringapatam. Mangalore is not in Kerala, and the siege of that city happened as part of the Second Anglo-Mysore War, which concluded in 1784. Francois Ripaud was not a "witness" to any of the events that he describes, because they occurred years before he even set foot in the Kingdom of Mysore. Another case of shabby scholarship.

 

[Das ka das]

Yes, every Muslim is a jihadi when it comes to conquering kafir lands. Marathas are called "Hindu nationalists" when they looted Hindu temples and monasteries and massacred local populations in South India, while Tipu Sultan is called a barbarian Muslim fanatic when numerous land grants to temples where granted by him. He even built the first church in Mysore at the insistence of the French, which Francois Ripaud apparently ignores.

Tipu Sultan was a far greater ruler than the Nizam of Hyderabad, the Maratha Peshwa, or any other contemporary Indian leader. He was the only one who can be said to have a vision for the future, and was the only one who actively took measures to reform his state. He modernized not only the Mysorean army to make it the most organized and technologically advanced in Asia, capable of going toe-to-toe with even the British corporate mafia, but also the government structures, commerce, industry, and agriculture of Mysore. He curbed the power of the zamindars and oppressive feudal lords and centralized the state authority, which almost all other Indian states failed to do. Even the British travelers themselves who visited Mysore during his reign remark how it was the most prosperous, well-run, and efficient state in India.




Mysorean rule over Kerala ended in 1792 with the Treaty of Seringapatam. Mangalore is not in Kerala, and the siege of that city happened as part of the Second Anglo-Mysore War, which concluded in 1784. Francois Ripaud was not a "witness" to any of the events that he describes, because they occurred years before he even set foot in the Kingdom of Mysore. Another case of shabby scholarship.

The Peshwas were also barbarians. They learned from the best: the jihadi armies. Also maybe Ripaud heard these tales from local inhabitants. Almost every European account mentions Tipu's barbarism. It's highly unlikely all of them were fabricating facts in order to vilify Tipu.
Also Tipu donated to temples and such during the latter part of his rule when he wanted to insure the population's loyalty in the face of British invasion. Tipu is remembered as a barbarian by people in North Kerala, I used to go there often (Kasargod district) due to an ashram my family frequented and the name Tipu Sultan sends shivers down people's spines (mainly Brahmins) even to this day. Face it, there is no denying he was a conquering religiously inspired barbarian when it came to conquering Kerala.

 

[civfanatic]

The Peshwas were also barbarians. They learned from the best: the jihadi armies. Also maybe Ripaud heard these tales from local inhabitants. Almost every European account mentions Tipu's barbarism. It's highly unlikely all of them were fabricating facts in order to vilify Tipu.

Here are some European accounts that don't get much attention from people like Francois Gautier:

When a person, travelling through a strange country, finds it well-cultivated, populous with industrious inhabitants, cities newly founded, commerce extending, towns increasing, and everything flourishing, so as to indicate happiness, he will naturally conclude it to be under a government congenial to the minds of the people. This is a picture of Tippoo's country, and this is our conclusion respecting its government.

-- Edward Moor, 1794
Link: http://books.google.com/books?id=tE...rd Moor Tippoo guardian to his people&f=false

Whether from the operation of the system established by Hyder, from the principles which Tippoo has adopted for his own conduct, or from his dominions having suffered little by invasion for many years, or from the effects of these several causes united, his country was found everywhere full of inhabitants, and apparently cultivated to the utmost extent of which the soil was capable; while the discipline and fidelity of the troops in the field, until their last overthrow, were testimonies equally strong, of the regulations which existed in the army. His government, though strict and arbitrary, was the despotism of a politic and able sovereign, who nourishes, not oppresses, the subjects who are to be the means of his future aggrandizement: and his cruelties were, in general, inflicted only on those whom he considered to be his enemies.

-- Alexander Dirom, 1795
Link: http://books.google.com/books?id=xx...r Dirom "the principles which Tippoo"&f=false

The Mysore Government, is the most simple and despotic monarchy in the world, in which every department, civil and military, possesses the regularity and system communicated to it by the genius of Hyder, and in which all pretensions, derived from high birth being discouraged, all independent chiefs and zamindars being subjugated or extirpated, justice severely and impartially administered, a numerous and well-disciplined army kept up and almost every department of trust or consequence conferred on men raised from obscurity, gives the Government a vigour hitherto unexampled in India.

-- Thomas Munro, 1790
Link:http://books.google.com/books?id=Ap...omas Munro "in which all pretensions"&f=false

For Britishers to write so glowingly about the governance of foreign states was exceedingly rare, for they prided themselves on having the most "civilized government" known to man. The fact that Tipu and the Kingdom of Mysore was described in such terms is quite astonishing, and does much to discredit the notion of Tipu of being a barbarian fanatic.

Also Tipu donated to temples and such during the latter part of his rule when he wanted to insure the population's loyalty in the face of British invasion.

Baseless speculation. Did Aurangzeb start donating to temples and tolerating Hindus in the latter part of his reign, when his empire was falling apart from rebellions?

Tipu's policy of religious tolerance was there from the very beginning of his reign, and was a continuation of the policies of his predecessor Hyder Ali. It was the state policy of Mysore to not discriminate based on religion or even class or caste, and this is evidenced by the numerous Hindus in important civil and military positions as well as those of humble birth.

Tipu is remembered as a barbarian by people in North Kerala, I used to go there often (Kasargod district) due to an ashram my family frequented and the name Tipu Sultan sends shivers down people's spines (mainly Brahmins) even to this day. Face it, there is no denying he was a conquering religiously inspired barbarian when it came to conquering Kerala.

Visit Mysore sometime. He is regarded as a hero there, and is the pride of the city.

 

[Das ka das]

Here are some European accounts that don't get much attention from people like Francois Gautier:

-- Edward Moor, 1794
Link: A narrative of the operations of captain Little's detachment, and of the ... - Edward Moor - Google Books


-- Alexander Dirom, 1795
Link: A narrative of the campaign in India which terminated the war with Tippoo ... - Alexander Dirom - Google Books


-- Thomas Munro, 1790
Link:Life of Sir Thomas Munro - George Robert Gleig - Google Books

For Britishers to write so glowingly about the governance of foreign states was exceedingly rare, for they prided themselves on having the most "civilized government" known to man. The fact that Tipu and the Kingdom of Mysore was described in such terms is quite astonishing, and does much to discredit the notion of Tipu of being a barbarian fanatic.



Baseless speculation. Did Aurangzeb start donating to temples and tolerating Hindus in the latter part of his reign, when his empire was falling apart from rebellions?

Tipu's policy of religious tolerance was there from the very beginning of his reign, and was a continuation of the policies of his predecessor Hyder Ali. It was the state policy of Mysore to not discriminate based on religion or even class or caste, and this is evidenced by the numerous Hindus in important civil and military positions as well as those of humble birth.





Visit Mysore sometime. He is regarded as a hero there, and is the pride of the city.

Ask any non-Muslim Mallu about Tipu's padayottam and see the reply you get. As I have stated before I concede Tipu was a good ruler to this subjects most of the time, however other parts of his legacy should also be considered and that includes his merciless invasion of Kerala which bore the characteristics of a true jihad through and through with its share of massacres, forced conversions, and temple destruction, even the famous Mughal apologist Dalrymple concedes to this fact.

Also regarding Mysore, Tipu massacred over 700 Iyengars during Diwali of 1790. He was punishing them for making a pact with the British governor general of Madras.

 

[civfanatic]

Ask any non-Muslim Mallu about Tipu's padayottam and see the reply you get. As I have stated before I concede Tipu was a good ruler to this subjects most of the time, however other parts of his legacy should also be considered and that includes his merciless invasion of Kerala which bore the characteristics of a true jihad through and through with its share of massacres, forced conversions, and temple destruction, even the famous Mughal apologist Dalrymple concedes to this fact.

It should be noted that the Mysorean forces crushed revolts by Mappilas (Muslims) in Kerala as well as those by Hindus, the most notable Mappila rebel being Manjeri Hassan. The Mysorean invasion of Kerala was indeed brutal because wars in the 18th century tended to be brutal, and the brutality was not exclusive to the Hindus. Tipu insisted that all of his subjects pay taxes equally, regardless of religion, and this roused the Mappilas to revolt.

In the long run, despite the brutality of war, I am sure that Kerala would have been better off under the Mysorean government than under the oppressive feudal social structure of the Nairs. In the short duration of Mysorean rule, there was already the beginning of wealth and land redistribution and improved governance, as the layer of feudal lords and chieftains in between the state and peasantry were eliminated. South India at that time needed an organized, centralized government to effectively utilize its resources and resist the British, as the feudal system proved useless in doing either, and Mysore was the only state that possessed such a government.

Also regarding Mysore, Tipu massacred over 700 Iyengars during Diwali of 1790. He was punishing them for making a pact with the British governor general of Madras.

In that particular instance, I see nothing wrong with what Tipu did. Treason and betrayal of one's motherland should be punishable by death.

 

[Das ka das]

It should be noted that the Mysorean forces crushed revolts by Mappilas (Muslims) in Kerala as well as those by Hindus, the most notable Mappila rebel being Manjeri Hassan. The Mysorean invasion of Kerala was indeed brutal because wars in the 18th century tended to be brutal, and the brutality was not exclusive to the Hindus. Tipu insisted that all of his subjects pay taxes equally, regardless of religion, and this roused the Mappilas to revolt.

Saying this statement is denying the very Islamic nature of his invasions where he specifically destroyed infidel temples and converted them by the sword. His invasion of Travancore was not due to rebellion as Travancore was not under his realm. And was the American Revolution as brutal? You are just whitewashing Islamic history which a whole generation of "secular" historians are apt at doing in the interests of "communal harmony".

In the long run, despite the brutality of war, I am sure that Kerala would have been better off under the Mysorean government than under the oppressive feudal social structure of the Nairs. In the short duration of Mysorean rule, there was already the beginnings of wealth and land redistribution and improved governance, as the layer of feudal lords and chieftains in between the state and peasantry were eliminated. South India at that time needed an organized, centralized government to effectively utilize its resources and resist the British, as the feudal system proved useless in doing either, and Mysore was the only state that possessed such a government.

Okay..as in resisting British rule is the sole criteria for judging a state. Get real. Also lets say his invasion of Kerala was successful and he conquered all of it after a bloody war. Do you really think that a war ravaged territory is beneficial?

In that particular instance, I see nothing wrong with what Tipu did. Treason and betrayal of one's motherland should be punishable by death.

After making such a statement, I doubt there is much humanity in you and I am thoroughly disgusted by it. And what "motherland"?! There was no "India" then, there was no concept of a nation-state then either.

 

[Das ka das]

The secular Tipu in his own words

1. Letter dated March 22, 1788, to Abdul Kadir: "Over 12,000 Hindus were 'honoured' with Islam. There were many Namboodiris (Brahmins) among them. This achievement should be widely publicised among the Hindus. There the local Hindus should be brought before you and then converted to Islam. No Namboodiri (Brahmin) should be spared. Also they should be confined there till the dress materials sent for them, reach you."

2. Letter dated December 14, 1788, to his Army Chief in Calicut: "I am sending two of my followers with Mir Hussain Ali. With their assistance, you should capture and kill all Hindus. Those below 20 may be kept in prison and 5,000 from the rest should be killed by hanging from the tree-tops. These are my orders."

3. Letter dated December 21, 1788, to Sheik Kutub: "242 Nairs are being sent as prisoners. Categorise them according to their social and family status. After honouring them with Islam, sufficient dress materials may be given to the men and their women."

4. Letter dated January 18, 1790, to Syed Abdul Dulai: "With the grace of Prophet Muhammed and Allah, almost all Hindus in Calicut are converted to Islam. Only a few are still not converted on the borders of Cochin State. I am determined to convert them also very soon. I consider this as Jehad to achieve that object."

5. Letter dated January 19, 1790, to Badroos Saman Khan: "Don't you know that I have achieved a great victory recently in Malabar and over 4 lakh Hindus were converted to Islam. I am now determined to march against that 'Cursed Raman Nair' without delay. (Reference is to Rama Varma Raja of Travancore State who was popularly known as Dharma Raja for giving shelter in his state to all those who fled Malabar.

Scribd

 

[civfanatic]

Saying this statement is denying the very Islamic nature of his invasions where he specifically destroyed infidel temples and converted them by the sword. His invasion of Travancore was not due to rebellion as Travancore was not under his realm. And was the American Revolution as brutal? You are just whitewashing Islamic history which a whole generation of "secular" historians are apt at doing in the interests of "communal harmony".

The American Revolution is not a good comparison because of the low population density of the American colonies and the relatively small number of people actually involved in the conflict; moreover, the British were preoccupied with events in India at the time, and India was far more valuable than America. A better comparison that is much closer to home would be Nader Shah's invasion of India in 1738-39. This conflict was initiated by a Sunni Muslim, and the victims were also Sunni Muslims (Mughals). Tens of thousands of people were reported to be killed in Delhi alone, including many Muslims, and the level of brutality was equal if not far greater than that seen in the Mysorean invasion of Kerala. Was this also a "jihad"? What were Muslims doing killing other Muslims to pursue their own self-interests, rather than allocating all of their collective energy to subjugating the infidels? It's almost as if wars are driven by factors other than religion!

Okay..as in resisting British rule is the sole criteria for judging a state. Get real. Also lets say his invasion of Kerala was successful and he conquered all of it after a bloody war. Do you really think that a war ravaged territory is beneficial?

The first and foremost raison d'être of the state is to protect its subjects from external threats and foreign aggression. A state that cannot protect its subjects from foreign domination, either through diplomacy or through a military of its own, is a failure.

No territory remains war-ravaged indefinitely. Eventually Kerala would be back to normal, and in the case of a total Mysorean victory, there is no reason to believe that its inhabitants would not eventually enjoy the same prosperity and good governance enjoyed by the Hindus of Mysore. Note that I am talking about the average peasants of Kerala, and not the feudal elites.

After making such a statement, I doubt there is much humanity in you and I am thoroughly disgusted by it. And what "motherland"?! There was no "India" then, there was no concept of a nation-state then either.

Please, spare me the childish theatrics. Treason was punishable by death throughout the world during Tipu's time, and indeed it would be foolish for a ruler to let people openly conspire with this enemies against the state. If a group of Indians conspired to make a pact with Pakistan (for example) to the detriment of the Indian state, I would recommend the death penalty for each of them, or life imprisonment at the very least.

There was no Indian "nation-state" in the late 18th century, but the concept of treason does not require a nation-state. It simply requires any sovereign state.

 

[Das ka das]

The American Revolution is not a good comparison because of the low population density of the American colonies and the relatively small number of people actually involved in the conflict; moreover, the British were preoccupied with events in India at the time, and India was far more valuable than America. A better comparison that is much closer to home would be Nader Shah's invasion of India in 1738-39. This conflict was initiated by a Sunni Muslim, and the victims were also Sunni Muslims (Mughals). Tens of thousands of people were reported to be killed in Delhi alone, including many Muslims, and the level of brutality was equal if not far greater than that seen in the Mysorean invasion of Kerala. Was this also a "jihad"? What were Muslims doing killing other Muslims to pursue their own self-interests, rather than allocating all of their collective energy to subjugating the infidels? It's almost as if wars are driven by factors other than religion!




The first and foremost raison d'être of the state is to protect its subjects from external threats and foreign aggression. A state that cannot protect its subjects from foreign domination, either through diplomacy or through a military of its own, is a failure.

No territory remains war-ravaged indefinitely. Eventually Kerala would be back to normal, and in the case of a total Mysorean victory, there is no reason to believe that its inhabitants would not eventually enjoy the same prosperity and good governance enjoyed by the Hindus of Mysore. Note that I am talking about the average peasants of Kerala, and not the feudal elites.




Please, spare me the childish theatrics. Treason was punishable by death throughout the world during Tipu's time, and indeed it would be foolish for a ruler to let people openly conspire with this enemies against the state. If a group of Indians conspired to make a pact with Pakistan (for example) to the detriment of the Indian state, I would recommend the death penalty for each of them, or life imprisonment at the very least.

There was no Indian "nation-state" in the late 18th century, but the concept of treason does not require a nation-state. It simply requires any sovereign state.

More whitewashing of Islamic rule by "secular" historians. Give me a break. The British were civilized enough not to massacre whole populations and you attribute it to low population density. The Dharmic kings of ancient India more or less also abstained from massacres. The only way to see history is through the moral prism of the present day. The depths you go to justify Islamic brutality by condoning the murder of innocent men, women, and children is again disturbing and you sir are a morally bankrupt individual.

Again who are you to judge that British rule was worse than Tipu's rule? Due to British rule, Western medicine and sanitation practices were introduced and India's population increased dramatically.

Regarding the Iyengars, why the hell would people who were subjected to humiliation and heavy taxes with Persian imposed upon them see the bastard Tipu as "one of their own". Tipu hated Hindus so much he renamed cities like Mangalore and gave them Islamic names. And the community leaders of the Iyengars made a pact with the British not the whole damn community. I guess the a misanthrope like you is probably glad a few more evil Brahmins are killed by your heroes. Makes me sick. Anyways this is my last response to you in this thread as you simply arrogantly brush aside the monumental evidence of Tipu's depravity. A case of Stockholm syndrome if there ever was one.

 

[Das ka das]

More accounts of Tipu's secularism.

Who was Tipu Sultan (1750-1799)?

1.He is also known as the "Tiger of Mysore" and was the ruler of the Kingdom of Mysore in southern India. At age 15, he accompanied his father,Hyder Ali Khan,the de facto ruler, against the English in the First Mysore War in 1766. The kingdom reached the height of its military power and dominion in the latter half of the 18th century under the de facto ruler Hyder Ali and his son Tipu Sultan. During this time, it came into conflict with the Marathas, the British and the Nizam of Hyderabad which resulted in the four Anglo-Mysore wars. Success in the first two Anglo-Mysore wars was followed by defeat in the third and fourth.

2.The majority of his subjects were Hindus.

3.Tipu's treatment of conquered Hindus and Christians, and English prisoners of war was horrible and inhumane.

The three wars of Tipu Sultan against the English

1.In 1779, the British captured the French-controlled port of Mahé. In response, Hyder Ali began a war against the British and 1780 Tipu Sultan was dispatched by Hyder Ali with 10,000 men and defeated the British and their Indian soldiers in the Battle of Pollilur. Tipu Sultan defeated the English again in 1782 and in that same year Hyder Ali died. The Second Mysore War came to an end with the 1784.

In 1785, the Dutch missionary Christian Friedrich Schwarz described the abduction of 12,000 children from the region. In 1788, Tipu ordered his governor in Calicut,on the southern Indian coast, Sher Khan, to begin converting Hindus to Islam, and in July of that year, 200 Brahmins were forcibly converted and made to eat beef.

2.He began expansionist attacks against his neighbours, and harshly put down rebellions within his territories, deporting whole populations into confinement in the city of Seringapatam/Sringapatam. He remained an enemy of the British, creating another war with an attack on British-allied Travancore in 1789. In the Third Anglo-Mysore War Tipu was forced into a humiliating peace, losing a number of previously conquered territories, such as Malabar and Mangalore.

3.In the Fourth Anglo-Mysore War the English and the Nizam of Hyderabad,the kingdom next to the kingdom of Mysore, defeated Tipu and he was killed on 4 May 1799, defending the fort of Seringapatam.

Articles with Bibliographies(for Verification of Claims) about the Actrocities by Hyder Ali and Tipu Sultan against Hindus and Christians

http://www.voiceofdharma.org/books/tipu/ch04.htm

http://www.faithfreedom.org/articles/islamic-jihad-articles/tipu-was-a-sufi-too/



Read more: http://www.antisharia.com/2012/10/0...s-christians-of-southern-india/#ixzz2Q9yCyynv

Tipu Sultan and rockets

Tipu Sultan's father had used rockets making critical innovations in the rockets and Tipu Sultan had a rocket brigade of almost 6,000.The Mysorean rockets utilised by Tipu Sultan, were later updated by the British and used during the Napoleonic Wars.

The attempt to prove Tipu Sultan was not a persecutor of Hindus and Christians

Argument 1:the English records can not be trusted

Brittlebank, Hasan, Chetty, Habib and Saletare argue that stories of Tipu Sultan's religious persecution of Hindus and Christians are largely derived from the work of early British authors such as Kirkpatrick and Wilks who they do not consider to be entirely reliable.

But against this is the independent evidence of Tipu's documents of persecution and that by the Hindus and Indian Christians.

A. S. Chetty argues that Wilks' account in particular cannot be trusted, Irfan Habib and Mohibbul Hasan argues that these early British authors were biased. This is repeated by Brittlebank in her recent work where she writes that Wilks and Kirkpatrick must be used with particular care as both authors had taken part in the wars against Tipu Sultan and were closely connected with English rulers.

Argument 2:the Muslim records can not be trusted

One argument is little reliance can be placed in Muslim accounts such as Kirmani's Nishan-e Haidari. That in their anxiety to represent the Sultan as a champion of Islam, they had a tendency to exaggerate and distort the facts: Kirmani claims that 70,000 Coorgis were converted, when forty years later the entire population of Coorg was still less than that number.Coorg is now called Kodagu and is a region on the southwest coast of India. According to Ramchandra Rao Punganuri the true number of converts was about 500.

Again,whatever the numbers the fact is indisputable that Tipu Sultan was a persecutor of Christians and Muslims based on independent records by Hindus and Indian Christians,not just by the records of the English and Muslims.



Here is an example in an Indian article of the attempt to make Tipu Sultan look like a hero

"Tipu, Haidar and history"

http://www.frontlineonnet.com/fl1707/17070800.htm

A little bit about geography

Mangalore is the chief port city of the Indian state of Karnataka,southern India,in what is called the Malabar coast,famous for its Malabar pepper.The Kanara/Canara region is also part of this area.

About the St.Thomas/Syrian Christians of Mangalore

There is the story that Thomas,one of the 12 disciples went to India and died on the southern coast of India.For that reason the Christians there are called the St.Thomas Christians.They use the Aramaic dialect of Syria,called Syriac,in their services and so are also called the Syrian Christians,but they are not descended from Syrians.



The captivity of Mangalorean Catholics at Seringapatam from 1784-1799,the worst in their history

1.Soon after the Treaty of Mangalore in 1784, Tipu gained control of Canara.He issued orders to seize the Christians in Canara, confiscate their estates, and deport them to Seringapatam, the capital of his empire.There were no priests among the captives,all the 21 arrested priests were expelled and threatened death by hanging if they ever returned.Tipu ordered the destruction of 27 Catholic churches,almost all except one were utterly destroyed.

2.According to Thomas Munro, a Scottish soldier and the first collector of Canara, 60,000 people (92% of the Mangalorean Catholics) were captured, only 7,000 escaped.

3.Francis Buchanan says 70,000 were captured and 10,000 escaped. They were forced walk 210 miles (340 km) from Mangalore to Seringapatam, and the journey took six weeks.

4.According to British Government records, 20,000 of them died on the march. According to James Scurry, a British officer, who was held captive along with Mangalorean Catholics, 30,000 of them were forcibly converted to Islam.

5.The young women and girls were forcibly made wives of the Muslims living there.

6.The young men who offered resistance were disfigured by cutting their noses, upper lips, and ears.According to Mr. Silva of Gangolim, a survivor of the captivity, if a person who had escaped from Seringapatam was found, the punishment under the orders of Tipu was the cutting off of the ears, nose, the feet and one hand.



Read more: http://www.antisharia.com/2012/10/0...s-christians-of-southern-india/#ixzz2Q9yKRLJ9

More information on the persecution of Christians there

The Archbishop of Goa,which was a Portuguese city next to Karnataka, wrote in 1800:

"It is notoriously known in all Asia and all other parts of the globe of the oppression and sufferings experienced by the Christians in the Dominion of the King of Kanara, during the usurpation of that country by Tipu Sultan from an implacable hatred he had against them who professed Christianity."

Tipu Sultan's rule of the Malabar Coast had an adverse impact on the Saint Thomas Christian community.Many churches in Malabar and Cochin were damaged.The old Syrian Nasrani seminary at Angamaly which had been the centre of Catholic religious education for several centuries was razed to the ground by Tipu's soldiers.A lot of centuries old religious manuscripts were lost forever.

In that invasion many Saint Thomas Christians were killed or forcibly converted to Islam. Most of the plantations held by Christian farmers were destroyed by the invading army.

The forced conversion to Islam of English men by Tipu Sultan

Captured English soldiers between 1780 and 1784 were forced to convert.After their defeat at the 1780 Battle of Pollilur, 7,000 English men were held captive by Tipu in the fortress of Seringapatnam.

Over 300 were circumcised and given Muslim names After the 10 year long captivity ended, James Scurry, one of those prisoners, recounted that he had forgot how to sit in a chair and use a knife and fork. His English was broken and his skin had become very dark.

After surrender of the Mangalore fort all the racially mixed persons,non-British foreigners and 5,600 Mangalorean Catholics were massacred.

About the title "Tiger of Mysore"

Tipu was known as the "Tiger of Mysore" and adopted this animal as the symbol of his rule. Tipu Sultan was hunting in the forest with a French friend. He came face to face with a tiger,his gun did not work, and his dagger fell on the ground as the tiger jumped on him. He reached for the dagger and killed the tiger.

Later Tipu had French engineers build a mechanical tiger for his palace. The device, known as Tipu's Tiger, is now in the Victoria and Albert Museum, London.

The Sources about Tipu Sultan's atrocities

Records that we have are:

1."The Malabar Manual" by William Logan

2.The historical chronicles of Kerala and royal houses of Malabar,which is in Kerala,southern India.

3.Historical research papers written by eminent persons

4.And official reports of the English East India Company.

The portrait of Tipu Sultan and his father Hyder Ali Khan in these sources

They clearly show that Tipu Sultan and his father were bigoted, brutal and fanatical Muslims. The remains of hundreds of shattered Hindu temples and many dead all along the invasion routes of Tipu's army are irrefutable proofs of the cruelty and atrocities committed by Tipu in Kerala.

He was waging a vicious Islamic war against the Hindu population of Kerala, with a large Muslim army under Muslim commanders. Tipu Sultan spent the major part of his rule in conducting military operations for subjugating the Malabar region. Wars of territorial conquest waged in Malabar by Hyder Ali Khan were intended more for spreading the Islam by slaughter and forcible conversion of Hindus coupled with widespread destruction of Hindu temples, than for expanding his kingdom.

Evidence of atrocities committed against the Hindus of Malabar by the army of Hyder Ali Khan are in the diary of a Muslim officer of the Mysore army as edited and published by the then surviving son of Tipu Sultan, Prince Ghulam Muhammed.But before he could succeed in conquering all the Malabar region, Hyder Ali Khan died in 1782. His son Tipu Sultan was even worse.

The genuine records of Tipu's deeds in Kerala show that Tipu Sultan was a militant Muslim ruler, who was responsible for the destruction of hundreds of Hindu temples, large-scale forced conversion of the Hindus, and indescribable brutalities on the Hindus in Kerala.

During the brutal days of Islamic war from 1783 to 1791, thousands of Hindus had fled Malabar, leaving behind their entire wealth, and sought refuge in Travancore State,according to an investigation by the British soon after Tipu Sultan's death.

"The Malabar Manuel" by William Logan

The most trustworthy book for the Malabar region about the historical facts is definitely the Malabar Manual written by William Logan. William Logan was a functionary of Malabar and worked for over twenty years in Kerala. The authenticity of its contents cannot be doubted.

There are plenty of references in the Malabar Manual about the cruel military operations and Islamic atrocities of Tipu Sultan in Malabar: forced mass circumcision and conversion, large-scale killings, looting and destruction of a number of Hindu temples, and other cruelties.All the historical documents of that period clearly indicate that Tipu Sultan's attack on Malabar had some purpose other than simple territorial conquest.It was to force all the Hindus there to convert to Islam.

An original order sent to the army by Tipu Sultan was found among the records from Palghat Fort,Kerala,after its capture by the English in 1790. It ordered the Muslim army to convert everybody in the district to Islam, that they should be traced to their hiding places, and that all means, truth or falsehood, fraud or force, should be employed convert them.

The barbarity which Tipu Sultan committed in the region of Coorg,now called Kodagu,south of Kerala was great.On one occasion, he forcibly converted over ten thousand Hindus to Islam.

On another occasion, he captured and converted to Islam more than one thousand Hindus there before imprisoning them in the Srirangapatanam fortress. In the period of confusion and disorder prevailing there during the last war of Tipu Sultan against the British, all the Coorgi prisoners escaped from the prison and became Hindus again after reaching their native kingdom. Against the solemn oath given to the Raja of Coorg, Tipu Sultan forcibly abducted a young princess from the Coorg royal family and made her his wife against her will.

Tipu Sultan came to Bidnur and forcibly converted its entire population to Islam. The people had to accept Islam for the sake of their lives.After the capture of Mangalore, thousands of Christians were also forcibly sent to Srirangapatanam where all of them were circumcised and converted to Islam.

Then he marched to Kumbla on the northern borders of Kerala, forcibly converting to Islam every Hindu on the way.In Malabar, the main targets of Tipu Sultan's atrocities were Hindus and Hindu temples.According to the Malabar Manual a number of Hindu temples were destroyed by Tipu Sultan.

Documentary Evidence that Tipu Sultan was a religious bigot

1. Letter dated March 22, 1788 to Abdul Kadir:

"Over 12,000 Hindus were 'honoured' with Islam. There were many Brahmins among them. This achievement should be widely publicised among the Hindus. There the local Hindus should be brought before you and then converted to Islam. No Brahmin should be spared. Also they should be confined there till the dress materials sent for them, reach you."

2. Letter dated December 14, 1788 to his Army Chief in Calicut,a port of southwest India:

"I am sending two of my followers with Mir Hussain Ali. With their assistance, you should capture and kill all Hindus. Those below 20 may be kept in prison and 5,000 from the rest should be killed by hanging from the tree-tops. These are my orders."

3. Letter dated January 18, 1790, to Syed Abdul Dulai:

"With the grace of Prophet Muhammed and Allah, almost all Hindus in Calicut are converted to Islam. Only a few are still not converted on the borders of Cochin State. I am determined to convert them also very soon. I consider this as jihad to achieve that object."

4.Tipu sent a letter on 19 January 1790 to the Governor of Bekal, Budruz Zuman Khan

It says:

"Don't you know I have achieved a great victory recently in Malabar and over four lakh Hindus (Note: 4 lakh=400,000) were converted to Islam?

I am determined to march against that cursed Raman Nair (Note:the Rajah of Travancore) very soon. Since I am overjoyed at the prospect of converting him and his subjects to Islam, I have happily abandoned the idea of going back to Srirangapatanam now."

5.On the handle of the sword presented by Tipu to Marquess Wellesley was the following inscription:

"My victorious sabre is lightning for the destruction of the unbelievers. Hyder Ali, the Emir of the Faithful, is victorious for my advantage.

And moreover, he destroyed the wicked race who were unbelievers. Praise be to him (God), who is the Lord of the Worlds! You are our Lord, support us against the people who are unbelievers. He to who the Lord gives victory prevails over all (mankind).

Oh Lord, make him victorious, who promotes the faith of Muhammad. Confound him, who refuses the faith of Muhammad; and withhold us from those who are so inclined from the true faith. The Lord is predominant over his own works. Victory and conquest are from the Almighty. Bring happy tidings, Oh Muhammad, to the faithful; for God is the kind protector and is the most merciful of the merciful. If God assists you,you will prosper. May the Lord God assist you, Oh Muhammad, with a mighty great victory."

6.The Barcoor Manuscript reports him as having said:

"All Muslims should unite together, and considering the annihilation of infidels as a sacred duty, labour to the utmost of their power, to accomplish that subject."



According to the "History of Mysore" by Lewis Rice

During the rule of Tipu Sultan, only two Hindu temples inside the Srirangapatanam Fort were active while all other Hindu temples were confiscated.In administrative matters, Muslim bias was clearly evident, especially in the matter of taxation. Muslims were exempted from all taxes and those who were converted to Islam had the same concessions. In the case of employment, Hindus were eliminated to the maximum extent possible.The period of Tipu Sultan and his father Hyder Ali from 1766 to 1792 is the darkest phase in Kerala history.



Read more: http://www.antisharia.com/2012/10/0...s-christians-of-southern-india/#ixzz2Q9yOtN5C

" Muslim rule should not attract any criticism. Mention of destruction of temples by Muslim invaders and rulers should not be mentioned." - Circular, Boards of Secondary Education, India.

 

[tramp]

More whitewashing of Islamic rule by "secular" historians. Give me a break. The British were civilized enough not to massacre whole populations and you attribute it to low population density. The Dharmic kings of ancient India more or less also abstained from massacres. The only way to see history is through the moral prism of the present day. The depths you go to justify Islamic brutality by condoning the murder of innocent men, women, and children is again disturbing and you sir are a morally bankrupt individual.

The British and the French did massacre the indigenous people on arriving in the New World. And the American Revolution was a war between White people. You can imagine what that could be like.
There is one serious danger in saying the "only way to see history is through the moral prism of the present day". That is admitting that perspectives could change. Tomorrow the result of the evaluation could be different, just as the moral peg of the events when they happened could have been different.
Ideally we should approach history without getting emotionally involved, unless there is an interest in furthering some ideology or the other.... which is true for both the Left and the Right. Then it is propaganda.

 

[Das ka das]

The British and the French did massacre the indigenous people on arriving in the New World. And the American Revolution was a war between White people. You can imagine what that could be like.
There is one serious danger in saying the "only way to see history is through the moral prism of the present day". That is admitting that perspectives could change. Tomorrow the result of the evaluation could be different, just as the moral peg of the events when they happened could have been different.
Ideally we should approach history without getting emotionally involved, unless there is an interest in furthering some ideology or the other.... which is true for both the Left and the Right. Then it is propaganda.

Exactly, and Tipu's invasion was between the pious and the infidels. Even the racist British were appalled by his religiously inspired cruelty. Nadir Shah may be an exception but that is irrelevant to the topic discussed.
The kind of punishment this sick individual supports is collective punishment. It is no different from World War Two where Nazi soldiers burned whole Belarusian villages along with its inhabitants if they were known to support the partisans. Anyways I'm done with this thread and I hope I get banned from this forum as I have better things to do than interact with self-hating urchins.

And perspectives might change but morality does not.

 

[civfanatic]

More whitewashing of Islamic rule by "secular" historians. Give me a break. The British were civilized enough not to massacre whole populations and you attribute it to low population density. The Dharmic kings of ancient India more or less also abstained from massacres. The only way to see history is through the moral prism of the present day. The depths you go to justify Islamic brutality by condoning the murder of innocent men, women, and children is again disturbing and you sir are a morally bankrupt individual.

Britishers were massacring whole populations as recently as the 1950s in Kenya

An apologist for the caste system and Hinduism calling someone else "morally bankrupt" is hilarious beyond description. I could care less about most Muslim rulers or Muslim rule in general, but Tipu Sultan in particular was a progressive leader of considerable foresight and there is substantial evidence behind that, not the least the accounts of Tipu's own enemies (the British travelers, not the Iyengars).

Again who are you to judge that British rule was worse than Tipu's rule? Due to British rule, Western medicine and sanitation practices were introduced and India's population increased dramatically.

Do some basic research on the mass famines and socioeconomic subjugation of the Indian peasantry during British rule. Such things did not happen under the Mysorean government, as far as we know.

Since Mysore was a state bent on modernization, I am sure they would have adopted Western medicine and sanitation in the 19th century, had they survived the war.

Regarding the Iyengars, why the hell would people who were subjected to humiliation and heavy taxes with Persian imposed upon them see the bastard Tipu as "one of their own".

Doesn't matter if they saw Tipu as "one of their own" or not. Brahmins did not see even their own co-religionists as one of their own. What matters is that Tipu was their sovereign, and they took actions against him and the Mysore government. That is called treason.

A case of Stockholm syndrome if there ever was one.

Speak for yourself. I nor any of my ancestors were victims of Tipu's supposed "atrocities". If anything, I am more related to the Hindu soldiers and officials who served under Tipu's army and government. I don't regard Mysore as any less "Indian" than Travancore or Malabar.

 

[MAYURA]

Something is wrong here.

Siege of Mangalore was conducted in 1783, towards the end of the Second Anglo-Mysore War.

Francois Ripaud visited Mangalore in 1797, and wrote his diary entry on 14 January, 1799, as mentioned in the article.



.

How did Ripaud "witness" events that took place 14 years before he even arrived in Mangalore?

Oh wait, this article was written by Francois Gautier.

oh wait, this post is of civafanatic who can justify killing of thousands of women and children but weeps over shudra disabilities.