Rediff: China's high speed bullet train network exceeds 10,000 km

[Compersion]

I got give the PRC credit. They took the high speed railway project by the horns and implemented it. There are two parts (1) the technology and engine to to go above 200 km ph and / (2) to build the infrastructure and tracks to allow the train to run at speeds above 200 km ph.

Part (2) is impressive they have done and build tracks and infrastructure fast and the trains seems to be running quickly even though I have not tried them I take what's read on this thread at face value.

Because of part (2) it's easy to overcome how part (1) was achieved. How did the PRC get this technology.

Kawasaki is currently challenging China's high-speed rail project for patent theft.


China denies Japan's-rail patent-infringement claims - China.org.cn

High-speed rail in China - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Once you have something in your hand by crook / by hook you go full steam ahead. Are the Japanese paid royalty.

Can anyone also share more about the turkey hsr. Is it part (1) - the engine and technology that PRC is involved is it part (2) - building the infrastructure the PRC is involved.

Credit is there with PRC able to do part (2) the way they did on its own.

 

[J20!]

Oh absolutely. But Indian trains are people transport. India has 200 million people less than China but more people travel by train and do not get shoved off in favor of freight. In India the right to travel anywhere in the country at any time is only restricted by availability of seats in trains

The silly dick-measuring contest is unnecesarry dude. Comparing India's albeit very large but highly inefficient British era railway system to the HSR lines in China is the most ridiculous of notions.

The Indian population is much more dependent on its railway lines for long distance travel because the country's infrastructure is undeveloped.

In China, highways and airports supplement both high speed and conventional railway lines to such a degree that huge movements of the population within the country (usually during the holidays) have become more convenient literally each year.

 

[bennedose]

The silly dick-measuring contest is unnecesarry dude. Comparing India's albeit very large but highly inefficient British era railway system to the HSR lines in China is the most ridiculous of notions.

The Indian population is much more dependent on its railway lines for long distance travel because the country's infrastructure is undeveloped.

In China, highways and airports supplement both high speed and conventional railway lines to such a degree that huge movements of the population within the country (usually during the holidays) have become more convenient literally each year.

The Indian population is a lot more dependent on the railways because the railways are less expensive and transport a lot more people than the Chinese railways. Whether it is British era are not facts are facts. No heed to get worked up about facts although that is understandable among people who are fed mainly with with positive propaganda. Are you trying to get defensive and give me an explanation of why China's railways transport fewer people that India by saying that Chinese don't use railways but use roads and airways?

No one is saying that the Chinese railways have not been expanding n modernizing at a rapid pace. But they still don't seem to be able to transport as many people as the Indian railways. I speculated that this could be because the Chinese need permits to travel within their country and in occupied lands like Tibet. You are saying that this is a dick measuring contest. Why does it become a dick measuring contest only when you get upset and feel loss of face? What part of my statements are wrong? They are all facts even if they upset you.

 

[t_co]

The Indian population is a lot more dependent on the railways because the railways are less expensive and transport a lot more people than the Chinese railways.

Wrong - the Indian population is dependent on railways because India doesn't have alternative transportation infrastructure.

Whether it is British era are not facts are facts. No heed to get worked up about facts although that is understandable among people who are fed mainly with with positive propaganda. Are you trying to get defensive and give me an explanation of why China's railways transport fewer people that India by saying that Chinese don't use railways but use roads and airways?

Er, 'defensive'? You were the one who started by trying to highlight Indian railways' supposed "people-centric" nature by noting gross passenger-miles. Unfortunately, your thesis is wrong. Furthermore, India wasn't even mentioned in the thread until you dropped in. Someone here is imagining insults - not us.

No one is saying that the Chinese railways have not been expanding n modernizing at a rapid pace. But they still don't seem to be able to transport as many people as the Indian railways.

Except success is not measured by how many people a railway can carry, but by how quickly they can be moved there, and whether or not railways are serving as an efficient mode of transportation. In those categories, Chinese railways are far, far ahead of India.

I speculated that this could be because the Chinese need permits to travel within their country and in occupied lands like Tibet.

What?

1) Tibet is not occupied - China owns it from both a legal and moral perspective. This is a normative viewpoint, so if you disagree, too bad, unless you want to settle it by force.

2) China does not require permits for internal travel unless you are a foreigner. What you might be mixing up is the hukou system, which restricts the right to collect social benefits from the local government/the right to own real estate in a non-resident jurisdiction, not the right to travel.

You are saying that this is a dick measuring contest. Why does it become a dick measuring contest only when you get upset and feel loss of face?

lol, it became a dick measuring contest when you had to go and google statistics to try and assuage your own ego because China's railway success versus this:

made you feel terrible.

What part of my statements are wrong? They are all facts even if they upset you.

I just proved most of your assertions wrong. And none of them were facts - you yourself said they were speculation.
@amoy I think we're done with this joker. This isn't an argument or a dick-measuring contest - it's a one-sided massacre by epistemology and empirics, which we have in spades but in which benne is utterly lacking.

 

[bennedose]

Hey that is unfair. That photo is from Pakistan which uses Chinese locomotives which keep breaking down, You are confusing China's whore, Pakistan with India.
http://www.nation.com.pk/pakistan-n...ministry-cancels-locomotives-order-from-china

LAHORE - Pakistan Railways (PR) has canceled locomotive purchase order from China after series of complaints.
The decision was taken by Railways Ministry after a report was submitted by PR officials. Chinese firm involved in the deal has also been blacklisted.
According to audit report for the fiscal 2012-13, 64 out of 69 locomotives purchased from China in 2002 were found faulty and out of order and are lying idle in Railways Workshop. Ministry of Railway had to suffer colossal loss of billion of rupees due to supply of faulty locomotives by Chinese firm.

Will India agree to give 50 engines to Pak railways as Chinese imports flop : Pakistan - India Today

The plan to rent engines from India was approved by Federal Railways Minister Ghulam Ahmad Bilour on September 25. Pakistan Railways officials told India Today that they had purchased 150 engines from China for 8 billion Pakistani rupees (Rs.4 billion) in 2003, but they proved to be substandard. "Contrary to the tall claims of our Chinese friends, their engines were a total disaster. We ended up incurring a huge loss," a railway official said.


Read more at: Will India agree to give 50 engines to Pak railways as Chinese imports flop : Pakistan - India Today

My oh my oh my? Chinese locomotives!



What do you mean by "@amoy I think we're done with this joker"? We? Are you his communist party boss, or or is it because you guys are not allowed to make decisions for yourselves?

 

[t_co]

Hey that is unfair. That photo is from Pakistan which uses Chinese locomotives which keep breaking down, You are confusing China's whore, Pakistan with India.
Railway ministry cancels locomotives order from China


Will India agree to give 50 engines to Pak railways as Chinese imports flop : Pakistan - India Today
My oh my oh my? Chinese locomotives!



What do you mean by "@amoy I think we're done with this joker"? We? Are you his communist party boss, or or is it because you guys are not allowed to make decisions for yourselves?

That picture's from India, buddy.

Nightmare train ride | There Will Be Asia

A few days ago I made a trip from a city called Calicut to a city called Ernakulam. It was the second leg of a journey from the plantation I had been working at to the yoga and meditation home stay I was going to. The trip was supposed to be four and a half hours. It would be my first time taking Indian rail.

For some reason I decided that instead of buying a ticket and getting my own seat with AC I was going to go the "traditional Indian way" and try one of those cars that you see on tv with people crammed to the brims and riding on the roofs. Something rediculous possessed me into thinking maybe this would be fun.

My thought process was something like, " I've already been hospitalized and I've done cramped busses without AC with strangers invading my personal space, this won't be so bad.". If I ever write the book "Personal Logical Fallacies and Failures in Reasoning" by Tomás O'Connell I will be copy and pasting that quote somewhere into my first chapter.

Let me tell any person from a western country reading this: do not ever try this. If for God knows what reason you do want to try this dont be as dumb as me and attempt this on a day the temperatures rose to 105 degrees F (unless of course you are the kind of person who enjoys the thought of rubbing salt into your own gaping wounds)

The next major mistake I made was that I didn't push people to get a somewhat reasonable spot on the train. If you ever find yourself in this situation make sure you push everyone. Push women. Push children. Push nuns. Push the physically disabled. Push old people. It doesnt matter Instead I watched as everyone savagely battled and struggled for position. The result of my paitence was a standing spot right next to the "bathroom" (I've seen several sewers more sanitary. The best description I can give is the part where Andy finally escapes from prison in The Shawshank Redemption.)

I don't know what part was the worst: the heat, the 684 strangers who I was swapping body sweat with simeltaniously (that number is not nearly as much as a hyperbole as you would believe), or that every time I tried to calm myself by taking a deep breath I would wind up with an olfactory overflow of other peoples melting feces scurrying through my nostrils.

The train departed at 9. By 935 I realized that if I tried to stay here for the duration of the trip I would either faint, vomit or have a panic attack in that order of likelihood. By 1015 I had successfully bribed the ticket checker guy into letting me sit on the floor between first and second class for 50 rupees (a little less that a dollar).

Sometimes the best purchases in life come cheap.

 

[bennedose]

Ah that's better.

So your plank about the greatness of Chinese railways is based on a comparison with Indian railways. But then if you keep ticket prices high and do not allow people to travel when they want you can be selective about what is revealed in China. It takes your ally Pakistan to show that Chinese locomotives, built by the same hands that build the J-10, J-15 and J-31 have a 90% breakdown rate. Your response? Indian railways is bad. Now we know that you want to play a dick measuring game and I enjoy that.

Come on - we all acknowledge that China has made great strides in railways - but is it still so bad in China that a bunch of you guys get your knickers in a big twist when a few truths about the Chinese railways and "export quality" Chinese locomotives are revealed?

Indians travel by train. How do Chinese travel? Well they need permits first. And if they have permits they still can't get tickets on trains. So they must use roads and airways. This is what I have learned so far. Why get upset about these little things? You have great roads no? And Chinese travel by car like Americans - as long as they have permits to travel.

 

[bennedose]

That picture's from India, buddy.

Well Mao's Little Red book doesn't teach much geography does it? It's your ally Pakistan,the country where Chinese "Deluxe Export Quality" locomotive breakdowns cannot be hidden.

 

[t_co]

Well Mao's Little Red book doesn't teach much geography does it? It's your ally Pakistan,the country where Chinese "Deluxe Export Quality" locomotive breakdowns cannot be hidden.

That links to your own photobucket account. Where's the source?

What's more, does it even matter what quality of locomotives Pakistan uses? China's rail network is what we're talking about here.

Let's see the train of arguments:

OP: China has an excellent rail network
You: India's rail network moves more people - hence India's rail network is better in some ways
Me: China has been shifting people off "slow trains" for freight, into HSR, air, and road travel
You: This means India cares more about people than China, because in India people don't get "shoved" off trains for freight
Me: China doesn't shove people off trains - it simply sets a price and quantity of tickets, and runs it like a normal market
You: China has travel permits to keep people from traveling, and that makes Chinese trains... cleaner? faster?
Me: China doesn't have travel permits to keep people from traveling - the hukou system doesn't apply to that - furthermore, India's trains are really terrible
You: That photo is from Pakistan; Pakistan's trains are terrible; they are all from China; ergo China's trains are terrible (here you stop responding to the hukou argument)
Me: That picture is from India; I cite a source
You: Because ticket prices are high, then we can be selective about what is revealed in China - here you are introducing new arguments while dropping your old ones without defending them, which means by epistemology you have already lost the debate - and you state we are being "nervous" because we are calling you out on your BS - finally, you reiterate your spurious claim that Chinese train travel is restricted by permit and restricted by supply

Basically, the only argument you're making is that unlimited availability of tickets on shitty Indian trains (reflected in massive #s of poor people overloading trains without tickets or in violation of safety standards) means that they are of superior quality to the Chinese rail network.

I disagree with that, and we can argue with that point.

I say that speed, efficiency, and sustainability of the network (e.g. the railways has to make money on an operating basis) is important. You say that the only thing that matters is letting everyone enjoy their "right" to ride the train.

That is a normative disagreement. However, the empirics of those two value systems are on full display. My value system begets China's rail system:

Your value system begets India's rail system:

I leave it up to the reader to decide which system they would rather have.

 

[Bangalorean]

^^ @t_co Putting up pictures of the worst possible Indian trains, most probably taken during times such as natural calamity or massive exodus, does not prove your point. It is just another way of saying "mine is bigger". Morever, as @bennedose said, many of these photos are from Pukeland or Bangladesh. You can't really make out, can you?

There are photos of Chinese trains with horrible toilets, with babies peeing out of the window or on the train floor, and many more. There are also trains in India like the Palace on wheels. There are also trains where the interior is very similar to the Chinese train interior you have posted above. I would have posted photos of both trains and asked the "readers to decide which system they would prefer".

You are advised not to get into dick measuring contests - two can play that game.

 

[t_co]

^^ @t_co Putting up pictures of the worst possible Indian trains, most probably taken during times such as natural calamity or massive exodus, does not prove your point. It is just another way of saying "mine is bigger". Morever, as @bennedose said, many of these photos are from Pukeland or Bangladesh. You can't really make out, can you?

There are photos of Chinese trains with horrible toilets, with babies peeing out of the window or on the train floor, and many more. There are also trains in India like the Palace on wheels. There are also trains where the interior is very similar to the Chinese train interior you have posted above. I would have posted photos of both trains and asked the "readers to decide which system they would prefer".

All I did was search "India rail" and "China rail". No cherry-picking - just look at the first page on google images.

You are advised not to get into dick measuring contests - two can play that game.

Thanks for the advice. Please tell @bennedose to refrain from starting these contests in the future.

 

[bennedose]

That is a normative disagreement. However, the empirics of those two value systems are on full display. My value system begets China's rail system:

Your value system begets India's rail system:

Well it is about dick quality, if not dick size and in this "normative" disagreement you wish to highlight what you see about the Chinese values as compared to Indian values.

What is it about the Indian system that makes you Chinese so insecure? For all the crowds, stink and dirt, why do you get so upset with the Indian system? You should have a natural feeling of superiority - but no, you want "readers" to be neutral and decide whether they like the pictures you have posted of Chinese trains or the Indian trains. And betraying your insecurity - you have posted the best Chinese trains with the worst Indian examples - just in case some reader still finds something good on the Indian side. Are things that bad? What gets you so worked up that you want everyone to kowtow to China? Is this Commie intolerance of dissent, or just the spoiled single child upset at not getting everything like daddy and momma provided? Or simple angst at loss of face when told the hidden truth?

I put it to you that India's value system offers something that China lost long ago, and will not regain until the commie fat cats of your politburo let go of their power - freedom to think and do as one pleases. Now you have to rationalize that China's values are superior and post incomparable photographs to make a point.

Indians value the freedom to travel in their country when they want. OK some are in crowded, dirty trains and some reach hours late - but they are happy doing that. Why are you unhappy about that? What makes you want "readers" to decide that China is better. Isn't your own judgement good enough? Does someone always have to massage you to make you feel better? Are you feeling that insecure? LOL

 

[kseeker]

blah blah blah...
t_co ↑

Indians value the freedom to travel in their country when they want. OK some are in crowded, dirty trains and some reach hours late - but they are happy doing that. Why are you unhappy about that? What makes you want "readers" to decide that China is better. Isn't your own judgement good enough? Does someone always have to massage you to make you feel better? Are you feeling that insecure? LOL

Bang on target ! Well said.

 

[bennedose]

On the subject of "let the reader decide"
ChinaTrainTrip: Introduction to China train

General Introduction

Trains link all main cities and towns together in China. With its development, train tour becomes popular among people as it is a real grass-roots experience for foreigners to roam around the vast country.

There are four different types of trains in China: multiple unit (MU), express, fast and slow trains. MU train numbers always begin with D, such as, D31; express train numbers with T, such as, T98; fast trains with K, such as, K888; slow train without letter preceding them, such as, 1044 or 1088. MU trains are the best ones, which are characterized by high speed and excellent condition. Both express and fast trains have air conditioning and service is generally good. Though slow trains are much cheaper and most do not have air conditioning.

China trains usually have 4 classes: soft sleeper, hard sleeper, soft seat, and hard seat. Short distance trains normally have just hard class seats. Long distance trains have soft & hard sleepers. And soft seats are not always available for passengers.
.....
Hard Seat

This is the most common and cheapest way to travel. There are 110 seats in each car. The greatest numbers of Chinese travelers use this class due to its low cost. Sometimes more tickets than seats are sold. These seats tend to be crowded and are not always very clean. This class is not comfortable and recommended to international tourists.

I will leave out the toilet info for now unless someone wants to do some more dick measurement so we can pull out what is normally hidden

 

[t_co]

On the subject of "let the reader decide"
ChinaTrainTrip: Introduction to China train


I will leave out the toilet info for now unless someone wants to do some more dick measurement so we can pull out what is normally hidden

So?

Are there any Chinese trains even approaching the standard of Indian trains? Do Chinese people illegally halt trains to try and get a free ride - and then die en masse when the train refuses to stop?

And finally, how is this truth hidden? You honestly think the government of China tries to trick the world into believing that its train system is better than it is? Do you realize how many people ride the train in China each year? How do you lie about something as well-known as that?

 

[t_co]

Well it is about dick quality, if not dick size and in this "normative" disagreement you wish to highlight what you see about the Chinese values as compared to Indian values.

What is it about the Indian system that makes you Chinese so insecure? For all the crowds, stink and dirt, why do you get so upset with the Indian system? You should have a natural feeling of superiority - but no, you want "readers" to be neutral and decide whether they like the pictures you have posted of Chinese trains or the Indian trains. And betraying your insecurity - you have posted the best Chinese trains with the worst Indian examples - just in case some reader still finds something good on the Indian side. Are things that bad? What gets you so worked up that you want everyone to kowtow to China? Is this Commie intolerance of dissent, or just the spoiled single child upset at not getting everything like daddy and momma provided? Or simple angst at loss of face when told the hidden truth?

I put it to you that India's value system offers something that China lost long ago, and will not regain until the commie fat cats of your politburo let go of their power - freedom to think and do as one pleases. Now you have to rationalize that China's values are superior and post incomparable photographs to make a point.

Indians value the freedom to travel in their country when they want. OK some are in crowded, dirty trains and some reach hours late - but they are happy doing that. Why are you unhappy about that? What makes you want "readers" to decide that China is better. Isn't your own judgement good enough? Does someone always have to massage you to make you feel better? Are you feeling that insecure? LOL

You're extending the argument to motives now. Under epistemology, I have no obligation to tell you why I'm debating you except for the fact that I find your argument false.

Second, "freedom to do and think as one pleases" has nothing to do with the value system so espoused: we are arguing whether it is better to run a train system the Indian way - everyone gets the "right" to ride, even if they cannot pay for one - versus the Chinese system - you have to pay a price that sustains the system in order to ride the train.

Third, you're using a subjective "feeling" (a nebulous concept of happiness which you fail to define or measure) to substitute for the empirical evidence I have accumulated against your argument. An appeal to emotion is a logical fallacy. QED, your argument is wrong and mine is right.

 

[bennedose]

So?

Are there any Chinese trains even approaching the standard of Indian trains? Do Chinese people illegally halt trains to try and get a free ride - and then die en masse when the train refuses to stop?

And finally, how is this truth hidden? You honestly think the government of China tries to trick the world into believing that its train system is better than it is? Do you realize how many people ride the train in China each year? How do you lie about something as well-known as that?

The only thing that is hidden is the bad stuff. If you say there is nothing bad about trains in China - you are lying AND being a typical Chinese who does not want to lose face. That is why you react with such vehemence when something less than shiny and clean is posted about China. I wil not bother posting pics of something good about Indian trains - I am sure you can find them if you want - but they will tear down your argument about Indians trains and I'm not holding my breath.

 

[bennedose]

You're extending the argument to motives now. Under epistemology, I have no obligation to tell you why I'm debating you except for the fact that I find your argument false.

Second, "freedom to do and think as one pleases" has nothing to do with the value system so espoused: we are arguing whether it is better to run a train system the Indian way - everyone gets the "right" to ride, even if they cannot pay for one - versus the Chinese system - you have to pay a price that sustains the system in order to ride the train.

Third, you're using a subjective "feeling" (a nebulous concept of happiness which you fail to define or measure) to substitute for the empirical evidence I have accumulated against your argument. An appeal to emotion is a logical fallacy. QED, your argument is wrong and mine is right.

I learned the word "kangaroo court' with reference to how China dealt with dissidents and opinions that varied from the path laid down by the commie politburo. You are worthy of that tradition. You decide what is allowed and what is not allowed. We were talking about trains and you started talking value systems. I talk feelings and you are unhappy. Like I said - in India dissent and disagreement is allowed. They give a much larger picture of what is happening rather than sidestepping facts with fancy arguments.

I remember a rather simple minded teacher I had who used to say "You cannot argue with me because I am a lawyer'. In his case it was naive, but what you are doing is hilarious. Sorry. The more worked up you get the less convincing your convictions appear to me.

 

[krishnan]

[ . Hi my dear brothers. My name is krishnan. Live in london but grew up in gujarat. Im new on here and wanted to say hi to everyone. Hope we can get to interact and make constructive arguments and comments to improve our countries. Hi to all the pakistani and chinese friends as well. Wishing u all a great day.
Now coming to the thread. Im really surprise to see how my indian brothers on here are calling people names. O hate when people give bad nicknames to others like -----is, pakis,blackies,negroes, stinky hindus etc....we are all adults and neighbours despite the fact that we have boundary issues(left by the british of course). But that doesnt mean we cant make constructive and responsible discussions without insults and bragging(tho i know its hard not to at times since everybody loves his/her country no matter what. What even surprises me more is SOME of my chinese brothers on here, i have many chinese friends here in london and in china(where i travelled for business there often) and chinese people i know are veru humble . Hard working and reserve people( who sometimes even overlook their sucesses/achievements),hell many if them care/know little about our country, So to see some chinese people comments on here bragging and trying to downgrade and denigrate india surprises me.i know from my frequent trips in china that they they are very anti japanese and sometimes make inflamatory remarks about them. But never heard them make such comments about us. So im kind of surprise to see it on here.Its true(fact) that china at the moment and for a foreseeable future is way ahead of us in all sphere bar IT services. I dont deny that china has 1 of the best infrastructures in the world at the moment( even more than most british cities). I have been to china and i know this.but this doesnt means they were always like that. They were also dirt poor(tho they still are albeit less) and very underdevelop before and where even called sick man if asia. So we can also make it and even more.This doesnt mean that we dont have good infrastructures as well. We do albeit not at chinas level. But we are still a developing country and if not for our bureaucracy it will be way better. Its unfair to keep comparing us to china everytime. We will grow at our own rate we dont have to keep comparing ourselves. U never know what can happen in future. Who would have known 30 years ago that china will be at tjis level of development and this powerful? So while looking at your acheivements never bellitle/redicule others wjo are below you for you never know the future. We might even overtake china in future nobody knows what can happen in this world we live in. And to my fellow indian brothers we should try and give credit where its due. China is way ahead of us 'FOR NOW' we should strive to move to move forward learn,copy when necesary(the americans.europeans,japanese, s.koreans etc) did it as well at 1 point,adapt and with time innovation will come(like japan and south korea did in their early stages if development) and china is now doing. So we we shouldnt redicule/mock their acheivements as well, especially when we dont have the technology/capabilities to produce better(if at all) goods. Sorry for being too long on my first comment on here. But after going to some threads on here i couldnt help after reading all the negative comments. QUOTE=bennedose;798377]The only thing that is hidden is the bad stuff. If you say there is nothing bad about trains in China - you are lying AND being a typical Chinese who does not want to lose face. That is why you react with such vehemence when something less than shiny and clean is posted about China. I wil not bother posting pics of something good about Indian trains - I am sure you can find them if you want - but they will tear down your argument about Indians trains and I'm not holding my breath.[/QUOTE]

 

[cw2005]

[ . Hi my dear brothers. My name is krishnan. Live in london but grew up in gujarat.

Dear Krishnan: What you have said and known are not something secrect in this forum. But then again, this forum is to provide a space for people to have fun and say something that when people face to face would not say. So, just enjoy your stay here and take whatever comment as it is. The seniors here are not stupid, they know what they knew and say what they have to. Having fun!!!!