Recruitment and Minority representation in RAW

[Galaxy]

Sikhs deserves all privileges without any discrimination and I think they are getting too in each and every domain. Even population is 2%.

Sikhs are patriotic and Majority of Indians are indebted with Sikh Gurus effort to save our culture.

MMS become P.M. not because India is secular country but because he is Sikh. India is always safe until Sikh regiment & Punjab regiment along with 35 other infantry regiment are guarding the border. It was Congress who were sole culprit in 80's Now, things are much better and there should not be any issue with their recruitment in NSG/SPG as per requirement.

And let me tell with full conviction, Majority of Indians don't even consider Sikhs as minority.

 

[Ray]

Is there any caste in Islam?

To the best of my knowledge, there is none!

If caste based reservation for Muslims is the clarion cry of motivated politicians, can they also inform the country, if the Quaran and Hadith are not to be taken as the sole guidelines of Islam?

If culture of caste is that important, then let people embrace this abhorrent system in all it purity and grandeur and state that their way of life is a fraud perpetuated on them!

I condemn caste and it is not my culture!

 

[Ray]

Galaxy,

Even Muslims are patriotic.

I can quote a whole lot of their deed.

Let us not condemn any group.

However, what is important is principles and belief.

It one converts or is a pure blooded Arab, then it is Islam which is the Pole Star of existence, within the parameters of the Constitution and the Law; though I believe Law and Constitution has also been contested since such people feel Quaran and Hadith are the sole guide.

Since there is no discrimination of man in Islam, as I understand, any pious and true Muslim, who prays five times a day, should not bend low to ask for privileges that sully the tenets of Islam wherein abhorrent ideas like caste is injected into Islam ! That is, If indeed such a man or woman wants to be a Momin and a true Muslim!

I am more than willingly to learn if I am wrong!

 

[Tronic]

I regret to say that if I have changed my religion because of caste atrocities, then I have no right to claim privileges based on the infirmity of my original religion.

Indeed, if it is still prevalent in the new religion, it is the new religion which is being fraudulent and totally against the tenets of that religion. One cannot blame culture for that.

And anyway, the large majority, when it is convenient claim that they are not SC but are of the pure Arab stock!

I am not painting them as separate. They are painting themselves as separate as they did to get Pakistan! Is there really any difference between a Pakistani of UP and the people of UP!

It may interest you to note that the Mohajirs are disliked in Pakistan, but not so in India! It is our inherent tolerance!

It cannot be ai bhi wah wah, tan bhi wah wah!!

It is time to be INDIANS!

That apart, if there is discrimination, it is repugnant!

We are INDIANS and not some religious group or some community flaunted for paramountcy!

With all due respect Brigadier, you are generalizing over 160 million people!

You speak of Mohajirs being disliked in Pakistan, but I must remind you that the Muhajirs are the UP/Biharis of Pakistan. Now after all those anti-UP/Bihari protests in Punjab and neighbouring states, in Assam, and Raj Thackerays antics in Maharasthra, you don't happen to tell me of our "inherenet tolerance", do you Brigadier? Is that really the case?

I am happy to see you raise the point of us all being Indians, and not some community flaunted for paramountcy, et all; but than how can we be so, when you are exclusively making quotas and reservations a solely Hindu perk? If one community is given paramountcy over another, where than goes this INDIAN-ness?!

 

[lemontree]

Lemontree Sir,

In my humble opinion there is a definite bias against muslims and sikhs when it comes to recruiting for NSG and SPG and against muslims when it comes to recruitment to Intel agencies.

There is no recruitment in NSG/ SPG. The manpower comes from military and para-military units; all those who have completed 5 years of service can opt for a tenure with NSG. The SPG is manned by police and paramilitary personnel. NSG is divided into SAG (special action group) and SRG (special ranger group). SAG is purely military and is used for anti-hijack missions, SRG is made of both paramilitary and military, they specialise in anti-terror ops.

Any volunteer has to complete 3 months probation and is selected or returned to unit (RTU ed) based on his performance and not his religion.

PS: The one thing that perplexes me is that it was actually the Sikhs themselves who helped finish the Khalistani militancy.

There is no discrimination against the Sikhs and Muslims.

The intelligence services are a very small group, and is not palatable to everyone. Hence very few join. The intelligence agencies themselves have staff on deputation, especially the officers; they are IPS/armed forces/paramilitary. For the lower ranks there is no recruitment board like you have for police/paramilitary and armed forces. I am not sure how they go about that.

 

[ejazr]

Why are we discussing reservations here? I don't understand why we are sidetracking an issue and bringing in reservations.

I have read the context of Sardar Patel's speech earlier and it was in the context of separate electorates for Muslims. That is only muslims votes for Muslim only candidates. This is as opposed to joint electorates reserved for SC/ST where everyone votes but the candidate has to be SC/ST. The joint and separate electorate systems devised by the British not only exacerbated HIndu-Muslim divide but was also a major demand by Amedkar as well in the constitutional debates where he finally agreed to reserved seats with joint electorates.

Infact, reserved Muslim seats were also offered between 1947-1949, but Muslim leaders like Begum Aizaz Rasul, Hafiz Tajammul Hussain and Maulana Azad opposed even reserved seats as well saying that the well wishes of the majority and the constitutional guarantees are enough for the Indian Muslim community. The debates were all about political representation not jobs and with the understanding that although Muslim representatives will go down compared to the share of their population, it will earn good-will from the majority community.
I don't understand why when 80% of Hindus are covered in some form of reservation either SC/ST/OBC. When Muslims and Christians are explicitly barred on the basis of religion from SC categorization do we still think that Hindus are being discriminated against when it comes to government jobs or political representation? But lets leave reservations off this topic because we should be discussing adequate representation based on merit, not reservation. There is no demand for reservation in RAW or IB or Army as there should not be.

Now my purpose here is look at this from the point of view of national interest. As the Outlook interview with the former RAW secretary states, there are Muslims in RAW but they are a precious commodity because there is acute shortage of such officers. In other words, there is a demand but because of some reason or another we can't fulfill that demand. And he clearly states that the idea that there is discrimination for Muslims is incorrect.
The same would apply in other cases. So if someone says that this should be looked into and corrected as the former RAW secretary in the outlook interview, what is wrong in that? We are looking for context speacilists and it stands to reason that you may find Urdu/Arabic/Persian experts among Indian Muslims. Or experts on Salafi/Deobandi/Barelvi school of thoughts e.t.c. Just like you would expect North Easterners to have an idea of tibetan culture and language skills for example. And given our focus on China, we should think about adequate representation of North East officers as well.

I suggest people to read the outlook interview here www.outlookindia.com | "Need For Muslim Officers In Intelligence Gathering Is Acute"

 

[rock127]

NSG commandos' Director General NPS Aulakh is a Sikh, buddy. I think that stupid limitation came only for SPG. From what I feel that RAW may have few or no Sikhs is because to blend in spying against Pakistan, they would have to go against a tenet of their path of Dharma -- cutting hair which is a sensitive matter. At least that's what I feel.

SPG's reason is because terrorist Congress framed that dirty rule against Sikhs due to Indira's own disaster.

Dhoodh ka jalaa chaach bhi foonk foonk ke pita hai.
.
RAW has Sikhs,in important positions.You can't expect Sikhs to be in majority since they are hardly 2% of the population.
.
It doesn't really matter if Sikhs are doing security jobs running around VVIP's who are eating our nation.As long as there are Sikhs in significant percentage(upto 15%) in our armed forces and in high cadre as well and winning medals they are doing pretty well.

 

[Ray]

With all due respect Brigadier, you are generalizing over 160 million people!

You speak of Mohajirs being disliked in Pakistan, but I must remind you that the Muhajirs are the UP/Biharis of Pakistan. Now after all those anti-UP/Bihari protests in Punjab and neighbouring states, in Assam, and Raj Thackerays antics in Maharasthra, you don't happen to tell me of our "inherenet tolerance", do you Brigadier? Is that really the case?

I am happy to see you raise the point of us all being Indians, and not some community flaunted for paramountcy, et all; but than how can we be so, when you are exclusively making quotas and reservations a solely Hindu perk? If one community is given paramountcy over another, where than goes this INDIAN-ness?!

With all humility, I would say that though it appears that it is a generalisation, but then the clamour for reservations and sops are quite disturbing since it is turning this Nation into segments and is dividing it into rigid battlelines. Daily the divide is getting pronounced. It is dangerous.

To be fair, Muslims are strident in defending its rites, rituals, slights, blocking of roads as a birthright to pray and causing inconvenience, giving out fatwas left, right and centre, threatening people with dire consequences (as in the case of Salman Rushdie). In short, holding the nation to ransom!

Likewise, is the Hindu right wing getting intolerant and trying to prove Newton's Law of equal and opposite reaction.

Even the Christians, who had not shown such open assertion of their religion, are getting intolerant and radicalised.

It is only the Sikhs, Jains and other minorities who have on their own hard work and prestige for the class have never bent low to ask for reservations or other sops. And it is not that they are all well to do and are living in opulence. For them, it appears, bending their heads before mortals is not their forte, habit or style!

So, the nub of the issue indicates that this entire clamour for reservation is but a political game and nothing more. Totally self serving!

In both Christianity and Islam, there is NOTHING called CASTE. In fact, to demand it is a Blasphemy and a total insult to the religious tenets!

Therefore, for Muslim to demand Reservation is spurning the tenets in the Holy Book and the Hadith and, as I look at it, Blasphemous! If indeed the clamour for Reservation is justified, then given the galloping growth of the population, having more than one wife should be taken out of the Religion! Or remove from the religion such an arbitrary and gender unequal Islamic rule where by stating/ SMSing/ emailing the word Talaq is adequate to legitimise a divorce! But, that would not be done since it goes against the edicts and it is convenient.

If those issues mentioned is as per the religion, then Caste is not as per the religion and so Blasphemous.

I am not aware of what it is in Assam, but if you trawl through the forum, you will find that Bal boy has no fan in me! So, what is your point?

The reservations were only for SC/ ST for social injustice to those who inspite of pressure of the overlord of the nation be they the Mughals hordes or others to include high caste Hindus continued to remain in the fold of their original religion and suffer and not take the easy way out.

Reservation was not for the whole humanity crawling the Indian horizon.

If OBC have been added don't ask me. As the very politicians who are using reservations as lollipops for the lazy who have no ambition to succeed on their own two feet.

Further, I have never been a votary of quotas or reservations since it cripples the people. You can check the forum for the same.

I have always promoted the oneness of the Nation and even argued the same against the tide out here and so there is nothing new about that.

As Indians we are a tolerant lot. The divisions that are being sown in the Indian fabric for self serving purposes is what is making us intolerant and horrid!

 

[The Messiah]

Brigadier is right there is no basis for caste in islam or christianity because they preach all humans are equal before god. So if they are getting reservation on the basis of caste then it is against there religion.

If reservation is there then it should be on basis of economic condition of person rather than caste because not all dalits are poor and not all bhramins are rich.

Ideally govt should build more schools and colleges which will absorb more.

 

[rock127]

With all humility, I would say that though it appears that it is a generalisation, but then the clamour for reservations and sops are quite disturbing since it is turning this Nation into segments and is dividing it into rigid battlelines. Daily the divide is getting pronounced. It is dangerous.

To be fair, Muslims are strident in defending its rites, rituals, slights, blocking of roads as a birthright to pray and causing inconvenience, giving out fatwas left, right and centre, threatening people with dire consequences (as in the case of Salman Rushdie). In short, holding the nation to ransom!

Likewise, is the Hindu right wing getting intolerant and trying to prove Newton's Law of equal and opposite reaction.

Even the Christians, who had not shown such open assertion of their religion, are getting intolerant and radicalised.

It is only the Sikhs, Jains and other minorities who have on their own hard work and prestige for the class have never bent low to ask for reservations or other sops. And it is not that they are all well to do and are living in opulence. For them, it appears, bending their heads before mortals is not their forte, habit or style!

So, the nub of the issue indicates that this entire clamour for reservation is but a political game and nothing more. Totally self serving!

In both Christianity and Islam, there is NOTHING called CASTE. In fact, to demand it is a Blasphemy and a total insult to the religious tenets!
Therefore, for Muslim to demand Reservation is spurning the tenets in the Holy Book and the Hadith and, as I look at it, Blasphemous! If indeed the clamour for Reservation is justified, then given the galloping growth of the population, having more than one wife should be taken out of the Religion! Or remove from the religion such an arbitrary and gender unequal Islamic rule where by stating/ SMSing/ emailing the word Talaq is adequate to legitimise a divorce! But, that would not be done since it goes against the edicts and it is convenient.

If those issues mentioned is as per the religion, then Caste is not as per the religion and so Blasphemous.

I am not aware of what it is in Assam, but if you trawl through the forum, you will find that Bal boy has no fan in me! So, what is your point?

The reservations were only for SC/ ST for social injustice to those who inspite of pressure of the overlord of the nation be they the Mughals hordes or others to include high caste Hindus continued to remain in the fold of their original religion and suffer and not take the easy way out.

Reservation was not for the whole humanity crawling the Indian horizon.

If OBC have been added don't ask me. As the very politicians who are using reservations as lollipops for the lazy who have no ambition to succeed on their own two feet.

Further, I have never been a votary of quotas or reservations since it cripples the people. You can check the forum for the same.

I have always promoted the oneness of the Nation and even argued the same against the tide out here and so there is nothing new about that.

As Indians we are a tolerant lot. The divisions that are being sown in the Indian fabric for self serving purposes is what is making us intolerant and horrid!

Please add Sikhs in addition to Christians and Muslims, because having a cast-less community is one of the basic tenants in Sikhism as well.
.
Unfortunately, Caste-system is still practiced in all these religions as well.

 

[Ray]

Why are we discussing reservations here? I don't understand why we are sidetracking an issue and bringing in reservations.

I have read the context of Sardar Patel's speech earlier and it was in the context of separate electorates for Muslims. That is only muslims votes for Muslim only candidates. This is as opposed to joint electorates reserved for SC/ST where everyone votes but the candidate has to be SC/ST. The joint and separate electorate systems devised by the British not only exacerbated HIndu-Muslim divide but was also a major demand by Amedkar as well in the constitutional debates where he finally agreed to reserved seats with joint electorates.

Infact, reserved Muslim seats were also offered between 1947-1949, but Muslim leaders like Begum Aizaz Rasul, Hafiz Tajammul Hussain and Maulana Azad opposed even reserved seats as well saying that the well wishes of the majority and the constitutional guarantees are enough for the Indian Muslim community. The debates were all about political representation not jobs and with the understanding that although Muslim representatives will go down compared to the share of their population, it will earn good-will from the majority community.
I don't understand why when 80% of Hindus are covered in some form of reservation either SC/ST/OBC. When Muslims and Christians are explicitly barred on the basis of religion from SC categorization do we still think that Hindus are being discriminated against when it comes to government jobs or political representation? But lets leave reservations off this topic because we should be discussing adequate representation based on merit, not reservation. There is no demand for reservation in RAW or IB or Army as there should not be.

Now my purpose here is look at this from the point of view of national interest. As the Outlook interview with the former RAW secretary states, there are Muslims in RAW but they are a precious commodity because there is acute shortage of such officers. In other words, there is a demand but because of some reason or another we can't fulfill that demand. And he clearly states that the idea that there is discrimination for Muslims is incorrect.
The same would apply in other cases. So if someone says that this should be looked into and corrected as the former RAW secretary in the outlook interview, what is wrong in that? We are looking for context speacilists and it stands to reason that you may find Urdu/Arabic/Persian experts among Indian Muslims. Or experts on Salafi/Deobandi/Barelvi school of thoughts e.t.c. Just like you would expect North Easterners to have an idea of tibetan culture and language skills for example. And given our focus on China, we should think about adequate representation of North East officers as well.

I suggest people to read the outlook interview here www.outlookindia.com | "Need For Muslim Officers In Intelligence Gathering Is Acute"

The thread is on Recruitment and Minority representation in RAW ( Research and Analysis Wing )

Raw is on secondment that is on aptitude. How does being a minority enhance the aptitude?

Does organisation, be it any organisation, have to have a quota/ reservation system to enhance efficiency?

It might appear obtuse, but why don't we hear of any clamour for quota/ Reservations for minorities in say, being bus conductors, sweepers in the Corporation and other blue collar jobs?

Therefore, that is what surprises me and hence, it appears a motivated clamour.

On Sardar Patel speech, it is disingenuous to state that it was not against reservations. The very fact that the demand was on reserved constituency, is in itself a reservation! The politicians thereafter, polished and finetuned it to cater for jobs for minority and so on, when it is against the Constitution to have reservations on the basis of religion!

SC/ STs are a class apart. They have faced social injustice from time immemorial. Have the Muslims suffered so? Mughals were Brahmins? They ruled and perpetuated injustice on the others and there were no reservations to protect the interest of those suffering under the Mughals as the Muslims of India have and are demanding for more! There were mass conversions to avoid the torture and we must not forget the Jezia either.

I am not aware of the percentage of how many types of Hindus are enjoying the sop of reservations. You say 80%? In other words, only 20% is for the other Hindus (non SC/ST/OBC) and Christians? A fair deal, right?

You must realise that the other Hindus and Christians, who are beyond the 80% are not all rich or educated to get the share of the droppings that come their way and what is more, there are brilliant SC/ST/OBC and Muslims, who also take away some portion of the droppings called the General Seats.

I presume the the General category Hindus and Christians are also Indians! They too have the same fundamental right to education and jobs, or don't they? And to get it the must scramble for the droppings that are left out after the reserved quotas!

When will we proud to be just Indians and no more than that?!

 

[Ray]

Brigadier is right there is no basis for caste in islam or christianity because they preach all humans are equal before god. So if they are getting reservation on the basis of caste then it is against there religion.

If reservation is there then it should be on basis of economic condition of person rather than caste because not all dalits are poor and not all bhramins are rich.

Ideally govt should build more schools and colleges which will absorb more.

This is just the point.

Quotas and reservations should be on economics so that the Nation can really bring all those who are deprived to some standard where they can get equality.

The govt fails the people and befools them with sops!

I had a discussion with Mr RS Gawai of the Republican Party of India (Ambedkar's party).

He said that the reservation for SC was lopsided. Those who benefited from it and got good education and opportunities are once again benefiting since their families would win the reserved quota as they had become educated because their parents had already benefited by the way of education, jobs and promotions and so could give their children the same benefit.

 

[Ray]

Please add Sikhs in addition to Christians and Muslims, because having a cast-less community is one of the basic tenants in Sikhism as well.
.
Unfortunately, Caste-system is still practiced in all these religions as well.

If caste system is followed in religions where there is no distinction amongst men as per the religious edicts, then it is making mockery of the Religion they are following.

It is then the total fault of the religious leaders who are quick to demand their rights and ameliorate real and perceived social anomalies.

It is no excuse that religions which celebrate the equality of Man should cling onto the horrors of a religion which has the vestiges of such horrors!

The claim and sing hosannas to the goodness of their religion. Hence, they should practice it too to show that they are wedded to the tenets of thier religion!

 

[Ray]

I would also like to make it clear that religion is no index to judge loyalty to the Nation.

That is disingenuous.

 

[The Messiah]

I would also like to make it clear that religion is no index to judge loyalty to the Nation.

That is disingenuous.

Agreed.

..........​

 

[agentperry]

entry into raw is at the will of raw itself. it select people from other forces be it police, ib, army or navy. thye select people, contact them and then recruit after taking all necessary tests.

i dont know its right or wrong and true or false but my source in IB told me about one drive. his friend was once contacted by raw people and 2 raw people and that ib guy met in a hotel for interview. it went well and raw guys asked him final time- are you ready for national service that is much more than your life, family and other materialistic things, he said i need to talk to my wife before making final commitment. they allowed him. he went out, called her, she said ok, he came back and room was empty. if he is looking onto his wife for making decision regarding a thing which is beyond his wife's importance then he is not worthy of selection.

i dont know anything about this case in detail. but this is one case...may not be true.

 

[mayfair]

I don't understand why when 80% of Hindus are covered in some form of reservation either SC/ST/OBC. When Muslims and Christians are explicitly barred on the basis of religion from SC categorization

Isn't one of the reasons given for conversions is the desire of the convertees to escape the shackles of the Hindu caste system? If these religions have no caste system them why ask for reservations based on caste at all? It would be ironical if not with diabolical undertones of having your cake and eating it too.

Either way as you pointed out, this is not the thread for these discussions. Any recruitment in an organisation entrusted with national security such as RAW, IB etc must be solely based on merit. If the recuiters are excluding members of certain faith due to some hackneyed perceptions, perhaps they do not deserve to have the power to oversee our national security. If the recruits in these services cannot sort their priorities on whether to put their nation's security over their personal convictions, then they should not volunteer in the first place.

 

[Yusuf]

entry into raw is at the will of raw itself. it select people from other forces be it police, ib, army or navy. thye select people, contact them and then recruit after taking all necessary tests.

i dont know its right or wrong and true or false but my source in IB told me about one drive. his friend was once contacted by raw people and 2 raw people and that ib guy met in a hotel for interview. it went well and raw guys asked him final time- are you ready for national service that is much more than your life, family and other materialistic things, he said i need to talk to my wife before making final commitment. they allowed him. he went out, called her, she said ok, he came back and room was empty. if he is looking onto his wife for making decision regarding a thing which is beyond his wife's importance then he is not worthy of selection.

i dont know anything about this case in detail. but this is one case...may not be true.

You ask you wife and you blow your cover even before getting your job!!

 

[mki]

I would recomend atleast 27% reservation for OBC/dalits and also 4.5% minority reservation in all agencies, with no exemption. it's high time we start giving social jutice to these folks and should also do a national apology.

sorrry mate, but you know this reservation things are actually a political tendency to pocket the votes.... there should be no reservation for any religion or cast in any of the jobs, schools and colleges. just for example, what do you think a 36% student who hardly got passing marks after more then one trial, and got admission medical school because of reservation, do you really believe that he will good doctor and save peoples life with same efficiency as other kid who have 80% and wasnt able to take admission because he dont have reservation.. By making reservation this politicians and there supporters are indirectly sending India to word hell.

As per your recommendation I am asking you, i am Gujarati and OBC, 27% reservation for Gujjus in Armed forces, and we will give to all india 27% reservation in share-market jobs, and easy business loans... now tell me is it fare?

Just for your info, I tried for NDA but failed in physical test (sorry mate like most of Gujjus, mentally extremely strong. Expert business minded but body is not suitable for physical hardship). Can your reservation idea will make me ideal soldier, despite of not being fit enough as per standard.

 

[mki]

With all due respect Brigadier, you are generalizing over 160 million people!

You speak of Mohajirs being disliked in Pakistan, but I must remind you that the Muhajirs are the UP/Biharis of Pakistan. Now after all those anti-UP/Bihari protests in Punjab and neighbouring states, in Assam, and Raj Thackerays antics in Maharasthra, you don't happen to tell me of our "inherenet tolerance", do you Brigadier? Is that really the case?

I am happy to see you raise the point of us all being Indians, and not some community flaunted for paramountcy, et all; but than how can we be so, when you are exclusively making quotas and reservations a solely Hindu perk? If one community is given paramountcy over another, where than goes this INDIAN-ness?!

you are welcome to Gujarat, we welcome all religion, all cast, all indian, all nationality except Pakistani.