We do accept our history just we have changed we do not do everything they did
Pakistan's Ideology and Identity crisis
- Thread starter Vinod2070
- Start date
Do you believe in Isra? Is that not superstition?
Do you believe that women are deficient in intellect and religion? Why or why not? Is that not superstition too?
musalman:
I have Muslim friends who pray five times a day, hold namaz and do everything else that Muslims are supposed to do. Now they also come to my house sometimes and take part in poojas (idol worshiping) and other Hindu rituals.
Does this makes them impure Muslims/infidels?
Sorry if this is OT.
I have Muslim friends who pray five times a day, hold namaz and do everything else that Muslims are supposed to do. Now they also come to my house sometimes and take part in poojas (idol worshiping) and other Hindu rituals.
Does this makes them impure Muslims/infidels?
Sorry if this is OT.
Yes that makes them Mushriks
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Why we are where we are
Why we are where we are
By Irfan Husain
Saturday, 25 Apr, 2009 | 01:04 AM PST |
IN the middle of Karachi stands the concrete shell of a 30-storey building. This is the structure of the Hyatt Regency hotel started in the mid-seventies, and which has remained a building site since work was abandoned in 1977.
In a sense, this hulk is a metaphor for Pakistan: a state launched with much fanfare, enthusiasm and good intentions, but which can neither be completed nor pulled down.
Any state has a number of prerequisites to function effectively: settled borders; an accord on the measure of autonomy to be exercised by the federating units; the official language; and a broad consensus on the nature and direction of the state. Another element relates to national identity. Finally, any modern state must establish its monopoly on the use and means of violence.
As an artificially created entity, Pakistan was required to define and establish these parameters. Unfortunately, it failed to do so, largely because of the long delay in forging a consensus on the constitution, and partly because of the frequent military interventions that repeatedly eroded respect for the constitution and the rule of law. Poorly educated military dictators with no sense of history attempted to come up with half-baked concepts that have laid waste to the institutions we inherited from the British.
An early problem the new state faced was the issue of borders that were left undefined by the departing colonial power. Pakistani rulers have struggled with this question, opting for military confrontation instead of dialogue and discourse. It is true that our neighbours have not been very helpful in settling the matter. Pakistani militarists have driven our foreign and defence policies, arming to repel real and perceived dangers from abroad, while creating a Frankenstein’s monster that now threatens to devour us.
As a result of this single-issue agenda, money that should have been spent on education and health was diverted into the insatiable black hole of bloated military budgets. As our population has increased without check, millions of young people remain uneducated and unemployed. Filling the educational vacuum are the thousands of madressahs, many financed by Saudi Arabia, that do not equip students for careers in the modern world. There is thus a fertile breeding ground for the Taliban and their fellow extremists to recruit foot soldiers from.
The last six decades have amply demonstrated the difficulty inherent in building a national identity based solely on religion. Talk to any conservative Pakistani today, and he will assert that as Pakistan was created in the name of Islam, the Sharia should be the law of the land. It would be futile to point out that Jinnah visualised a secular state in which all Pakistanis would be equal citizens. This lofty vision would be scant comfort to the Sikh families who have had to flee their homes in the tribal areas because demands for jaziah, the old Muslim tax on non-Muslims, were made by de facto Taliban rulers.
In order to justify the partition of the subcontinent, rulers have resorted to bewildering mental contortions. Many have tried to move our roots to the Middle East from our true origins in South Asia. This confusion is reflected in school textbooks and the media. Thus, we have young people unsure of their past, and unable or unwilling to claim their rich cultural patrimony.
The insecurity caused by the wrenching experience of Partition has seen military and civilian rulers looking to the West for military and economic assistance. For years, these anti-Communist alliances made us feel stronger than we actually were. But they also isolated us, and when the balance of power began to shift against us, the army built up a force of extremists to further its agenda in Afghanistan and Kashmir. These are the militants who threaten our very survival today.
Instead of fighting them, the ruling elites continue their double game of playing footsie with the Taliban, while laying claim to billions in western aid. But the jihadis cannot be defeated with money alone: political will and a broad consensus backed by military might are needed. So far, there are few signs of any of this happening. While the Taliban walk into Buner and Dir after their uncontested victory in Swat, the army continues its policy of studied indifference, while the politicians play their power games.
The divisions in the ranks of Pakistani society over this threat are visible in the media. In a sense, this is the inevitable product of decades of brainwashing about the nature of the Pakistani state. Many people are confused about the issues underlying this crisis: having been told that Pakistan was created in the name of Islam, they are now being asked to accept that the real enemy is not Hindu India, but fanatics who want to impose their stone-age rule in the name of Islam.
Such contradictions cannot be easily resolved, especially in a deeply conservative society where illiteracy is rampant. When simple, poorly educated soldiers are warned by mullahs that they will not be accorded a Muslim burial if they fall fighting the Taliban, it is understandable that they should be reluctant to go into combat. Generations of army officers have been indoctrinated at military academies into believing that India is the real enemy. It is hard for them to face reality, and reorient our defence to the west.
Since Zia began promoting Wahabi madressahs across Pakistan in the eighties, we have faced bitter sectarian strife. Anti-Shia militias have been in the forefront of the jihad in Afghanistan and Kashmir, acquiring arms, training and large amounts of money in the process. These forces are now formally allied with the Taliban, and have presented their erstwhile handlers in our intelligence services with the difficult task of keeping them on our side, while simultaneously appearing to fight them.
In the long wish list prepared by the army for the Pentagon’s consideration, night-vision goggles are high in our priorities. Well-informed friends in Peshawar tell me that this equipment is on sale in the local arms bazaar, having been looted from US and Nato convoys. But if our army doesn’t want to buy the locally available goggles, could I ask them to consider fighting during the day, at least?
When you next drive past the looming shell of the Hyatt Regency, spare a thought for what might have been.
[email protected]
DAWN.COM | Columnists | Why-we-are-where-we-are
Why we are where we are
By Irfan Husain
Saturday, 25 Apr, 2009 | 01:04 AM PST |
IN the middle of Karachi stands the concrete shell of a 30-storey building. This is the structure of the Hyatt Regency hotel started in the mid-seventies, and which has remained a building site since work was abandoned in 1977.
In a sense, this hulk is a metaphor for Pakistan: a state launched with much fanfare, enthusiasm and good intentions, but which can neither be completed nor pulled down.
Any state has a number of prerequisites to function effectively: settled borders; an accord on the measure of autonomy to be exercised by the federating units; the official language; and a broad consensus on the nature and direction of the state. Another element relates to national identity. Finally, any modern state must establish its monopoly on the use and means of violence.
As an artificially created entity, Pakistan was required to define and establish these parameters. Unfortunately, it failed to do so, largely because of the long delay in forging a consensus on the constitution, and partly because of the frequent military interventions that repeatedly eroded respect for the constitution and the rule of law. Poorly educated military dictators with no sense of history attempted to come up with half-baked concepts that have laid waste to the institutions we inherited from the British.
An early problem the new state faced was the issue of borders that were left undefined by the departing colonial power. Pakistani rulers have struggled with this question, opting for military confrontation instead of dialogue and discourse. It is true that our neighbours have not been very helpful in settling the matter. Pakistani militarists have driven our foreign and defence policies, arming to repel real and perceived dangers from abroad, while creating a Frankenstein’s monster that now threatens to devour us.
As a result of this single-issue agenda, money that should have been spent on education and health was diverted into the insatiable black hole of bloated military budgets. As our population has increased without check, millions of young people remain uneducated and unemployed. Filling the educational vacuum are the thousands of madressahs, many financed by Saudi Arabia, that do not equip students for careers in the modern world. There is thus a fertile breeding ground for the Taliban and their fellow extremists to recruit foot soldiers from.
The last six decades have amply demonstrated the difficulty inherent in building a national identity based solely on religion. Talk to any conservative Pakistani today, and he will assert that as Pakistan was created in the name of Islam, the Sharia should be the law of the land. It would be futile to point out that Jinnah visualised a secular state in which all Pakistanis would be equal citizens. This lofty vision would be scant comfort to the Sikh families who have had to flee their homes in the tribal areas because demands for jaziah, the old Muslim tax on non-Muslims, were made by de facto Taliban rulers.
In order to justify the partition of the subcontinent, rulers have resorted to bewildering mental contortions. Many have tried to move our roots to the Middle East from our true origins in South Asia. This confusion is reflected in school textbooks and the media. Thus, we have young people unsure of their past, and unable or unwilling to claim their rich cultural patrimony.
The insecurity caused by the wrenching experience of Partition has seen military and civilian rulers looking to the West for military and economic assistance. For years, these anti-Communist alliances made us feel stronger than we actually were. But they also isolated us, and when the balance of power began to shift against us, the army built up a force of extremists to further its agenda in Afghanistan and Kashmir. These are the militants who threaten our very survival today.
Instead of fighting them, the ruling elites continue their double game of playing footsie with the Taliban, while laying claim to billions in western aid. But the jihadis cannot be defeated with money alone: political will and a broad consensus backed by military might are needed. So far, there are few signs of any of this happening. While the Taliban walk into Buner and Dir after their uncontested victory in Swat, the army continues its policy of studied indifference, while the politicians play their power games.
The divisions in the ranks of Pakistani society over this threat are visible in the media. In a sense, this is the inevitable product of decades of brainwashing about the nature of the Pakistani state. Many people are confused about the issues underlying this crisis: having been told that Pakistan was created in the name of Islam, they are now being asked to accept that the real enemy is not Hindu India, but fanatics who want to impose their stone-age rule in the name of Islam.
Such contradictions cannot be easily resolved, especially in a deeply conservative society where illiteracy is rampant. When simple, poorly educated soldiers are warned by mullahs that they will not be accorded a Muslim burial if they fall fighting the Taliban, it is understandable that they should be reluctant to go into combat. Generations of army officers have been indoctrinated at military academies into believing that India is the real enemy. It is hard for them to face reality, and reorient our defence to the west.
Since Zia began promoting Wahabi madressahs across Pakistan in the eighties, we have faced bitter sectarian strife. Anti-Shia militias have been in the forefront of the jihad in Afghanistan and Kashmir, acquiring arms, training and large amounts of money in the process. These forces are now formally allied with the Taliban, and have presented their erstwhile handlers in our intelligence services with the difficult task of keeping them on our side, while simultaneously appearing to fight them.
In the long wish list prepared by the army for the Pentagon’s consideration, night-vision goggles are high in our priorities. Well-informed friends in Peshawar tell me that this equipment is on sale in the local arms bazaar, having been looted from US and Nato convoys. But if our army doesn’t want to buy the locally available goggles, could I ask them to consider fighting during the day, at least?
When you next drive past the looming shell of the Hyatt Regency, spare a thought for what might have been.
[email protected]
DAWN.COM | Columnists | Why-we-are-where-we-are
Isn't that slightly unfair?
it was pakistan that wanted to rid itself of the indian culture my friend...your pakistan was the land of my fore-fathers...it has been taken aways from me...No Pakistan is not Islam, Islam is a bigger scenario Pakistan is one part of it in this age.
Coz Allah made religion and then Allah made clans too. Anything part of Indian culture which does not contradict Islam is still my culture. What ever contradict Islam is out like Idol and grave worshiping, superstition etc etc
Of course
i know my culture and indian culture and hindu culture are not same...i speak for the indian culture...
Yes they are
Unfair i dunno i don't make rules. But is n't it unfair to consider God is not Al mighty and requires support from Idols, graves etc.
Lets not discuss religion here.
Well I don't want to get into religion here but almost all Muslims in India were converted by the Sufis as per the Muslim's claims themselves!
Does that mean they were never Muslims? Shouldn't they go back to their roots if they converted to a false ideology? The same holds true for all Barelvies in Pakistan, India and the Sufi followers in Bangladesh.
Just think carefully about the issues involved before replying with this new fangled ideology of Wahabism.
vijaytripoli
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U.S. to Pakistan: Stop the Taliban, or We Will
Updated at: 0900 PST, Sunday, April 26, 2009
LONDON: America made clear last week that it would attack Taliban forces in their Swat valley stronghold unless the Pakistan government stopped the militants' advance towards Islamabad.
London Times report quoted a senior Pakistani official saying the Obama administration intervened after Taliban forces expanded from Swat into the adjacent district of Buner, 60 miles from the capital.
The Pakistani Taliban's inroads raised international concern, particularly in Washington, where officials feared that the nuclear-armed country, which is pivotal to the U.S. war against the Taliban in Afghanistan and against Al Qaeda, was rapidly succumbing to Islamist extremists.
"The implicit threat - if you don't do it, we may have to - was always there," said the Pakistani official. He said that under American pressure, Pakistan's Inter-Services Intelligence agency told the Taliban to withdraw from Buner on Friday.
However, reports Saturday indicated that the Taliban withdrawal was less than total. As a result, hundreds of thousands of people in the district were still at the mercy of armed militants and their restrictive interpretation of Islamic law.
American military and intelligence forces already run limited ground and air operations on Pakistani soil along the border with Afghanistan. But an overt military operation such as that threatened in Swat, away from the border, would mark a major escalation.
The official said last week's outspoken remarks by Hillary Clinton, the U.S. secretary of state, were "calculated to ramp up the pressure on Pakistan" to take action. Clinton warned that the terrorists' advance had created a "mortal threat" to world security.
She was one of several American political and military leaders to use unusually strong language about Pakistan's failure to curb the Taliban. Admiral Mike Mullen, chairman of the joint chiefs of staff, who visited Pakistan, said he was "extremely concerned" about the developments and that the situation was "definitely worse" than two weeks ago.
General David Petraeus, of US Central Command, which oversees Afghanistan - to which America is about to commit 17,000 more troops - said Al Qaeda and Taliban extremists in Pakistan posed an "ever more serious threat to Pakistan's very existence."
U.S. to Pakistan: Stop the Taliban, or We Will
Updated at: 0900 PST, Sunday, April 26, 2009
LONDON: America made clear last week that it would attack Taliban forces in their Swat valley stronghold unless the Pakistan government stopped the militants' advance towards Islamabad.
London Times report quoted a senior Pakistani official saying the Obama administration intervened after Taliban forces expanded from Swat into the adjacent district of Buner, 60 miles from the capital.
The Pakistani Taliban's inroads raised international concern, particularly in Washington, where officials feared that the nuclear-armed country, which is pivotal to the U.S. war against the Taliban in Afghanistan and against Al Qaeda, was rapidly succumbing to Islamist extremists.
"The implicit threat - if you don't do it, we may have to - was always there," said the Pakistani official. He said that under American pressure, Pakistan's Inter-Services Intelligence agency told the Taliban to withdraw from Buner on Friday.
However, reports Saturday indicated that the Taliban withdrawal was less than total. As a result, hundreds of thousands of people in the district were still at the mercy of armed militants and their restrictive interpretation of Islamic law.
American military and intelligence forces already run limited ground and air operations on Pakistani soil along the border with Afghanistan. But an overt military operation such as that threatened in Swat, away from the border, would mark a major escalation.
The official said last week's outspoken remarks by Hillary Clinton, the U.S. secretary of state, were "calculated to ramp up the pressure on Pakistan" to take action. Clinton warned that the terrorists' advance had created a "mortal threat" to world security.
She was one of several American political and military leaders to use unusually strong language about Pakistan's failure to curb the Taliban. Admiral Mike Mullen, chairman of the joint chiefs of staff, who visited Pakistan, said he was "extremely concerned" about the developments and that the situation was "definitely worse" than two weeks ago.
General David Petraeus, of US Central Command, which oversees Afghanistan - to which America is about to commit 17,000 more troops - said Al Qaeda and Taliban extremists in Pakistan posed an "ever more serious threat to Pakistan's very existence."
U.S. to Pakistan: Stop the Taliban, or We Will
Not sufis but Buzurgs, which not necessary means Sufi. Non of these guys taught people to worship graves.
Regarding Barelivies
I dunno what to say except u r right :113:empty words. if USA could have stopped Taliban on their own, without pak support, they would have done so long ago. They wouldn't waste billions of dollars in aid to Pakistan.
The only way USA can actually stop Taliban in their tracks is to nuke the entire pak afghan border area. That would kill off enough Taliban. But then the entire world will be up against the USA, and there will be 300 different terrorist groups who would want to take down USA.
In case of nuking the Af Pak area, although not just Taliban will be killed infact fertile areas of Punjab in Pakistan and India will also be unlivable creating an extreme food crisis in the world.
Babies born in Dehli and Lahore will be deformed. etc etc
Man i don;t even want to think about these things
Babies born in Dehli and Lahore will be deformed. etc etc
Man i don;t even want to think about these things
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If you dont want to think about it, then think about how to get you country back on track. Just like you took to the streets to get your Chief Justice restored, do the same to get your "country" restored.
Country is not going anywhere its the govt. Why should ppl care about PPP govt who basically lied on all issues
Well, I know that most Muslims of the subcontinent are Barelvies and "grave worship" as you call it is a common phenomenon among them since centuries. Nizamuddin Aulia's site at Ajmer has been visited for hundreds of years including by Mughal kings I believe. Certainly Musharraf as your president (and he claims Arab roots in his book!) visited the site.Not sufis but Buzurgs, which not necessary means Sufi. Non of these guys taught people to worship graves.
Regarding Barelivies
So I can only consider your statements as explosive. I hope that is not the mainstream thinking in Pakistan.
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