Pak shells India, India retaliates

anupamsurey

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A long time ago Britain and France were at war. During one battle, the French captured an English colonel.
They took him to their headquarters, and the French General began to question him.


Finally, as an afterthought, the French General asked, "Why do English Officers wear red coats? Don't you know the red material makes you easier targets for us to shoot at?"

In his bland English way, the officer informed the general that the reason British officers wear a red coats is that, if they are shot, the blood won't show, and the men they are leading won't panic." And that is why, from that day to this, all Pakistani Army Officers wear brown pants.
:lol::lol:
what if they pee?
by the intensity of Indian response, the pakis are peeing in gallons, so i dont think that they can afford so many diapers, it also will be funny when pakis bring diapers to the war instead of ammo.
 

anupamsurey

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A long time ago Britain and France were at war. During one battle, the French captured an English colonel.
They took him to their headquarters, and the French General began to question him.


Finally, as an afterthought, the French General asked, "Why do English Officers wear red coats? Don't you know the red material makes you easier targets for us to shoot at?"

In his bland English way, the officer informed the general that the reason British officers wear a red coats is that, if they are shot, the blood won't show, and the men they are leading won't panic." And that is why, from that day to this, all Pakistani Army Officers wear brown pants.
:lol::lol:
what if they pee?
by the intensity of Indian response, the pakis are peeing in gallons, so i dont think that they can afford so many diapers, it also will be funny when pakis bring diapers to the war instead of ammo.
 

Neil

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It is the de-hyphenation of India-Pakistan that Islamabad fears the most


More than 18 months ago, I was in Dubai as part of a track II effort (my first and perhaps last such participation, given that I am not much of a Pakistan watcher) on how India and Pakistan can overcome their antipathy and strike an enduring, working relationship. The conference covered issues of common interest to the two countries, including trade, business, micro finance, IT, water, energy, climate change, public health, security, and media. I wrote briefly about it in May 2013 (A New Opportunity for Indo-Pakistan Relations? | The Diplomat).

At the conference I spoke on the Indian military doctrine. In the course of my presentation I asserted that the Indian military has, over the past decade, re-oriented itself towards meeting the bigger challenge from China since it exactly knows how to deal with Pakistan. The underlying theme of my assertion was: India has got the measure of Pakistan's predictable military moves and knows how to counter them. The focus therefore is to try and be prepared for the bigger threat, that is China. A retired Pakistani military officer, who was among the delegates, disagreed demonstrably. "How can India forget that Pakistan is a nuclear power? How can India ignore Pakistan's military power," he remonstrated with me. I could not, till the end, convince him that India was not taking Pakistan's military threat lightly but was merely pointing out that Indian military has moved on to prepare for a far more potent threat. He however, would not believe me.

I recall that little encounter now since the current situation on the border between India and Pakistan, I believe, is also born out of Pakistani establishment's (read the Army's) fear of losing its relevance in the Indian sub-continent.

For long, the hyphenation of India-Pakistan has been a common international theme. But a small but subtle change in India's approach towards big international players and the immediate neighbourhood, has clearly caught Pakistan on the wrong foot. If Prime Minister Narendra Modi's unexpected move to reach out to SAARC leaders by inviting them for his inauguration was a surprise move, his government's decision to cancel India-Pakistan bilateral talks on the issue of Pakistan's high commissioner to India meeting separatist leaders from Kashmir despite India's warning, was totally unexpected in Islamabad. Suddenly, this was a different New Delhi it was forced to deal with.

The decision makers--Prime Minister Narendra Modi and former spymaster-turned National Security Adviser Ajit Doval--were not going be trapped into a long-held framework of 'talks-with-Pakistan-at-any-cost' that had come to dominate New Delhi's policy on Pakistan, even during the earlier avatar of the National Democratic Alliance (NDA) government led by Prime Minister Atal Behari Vajpayee. Instead, they had decided to draw new, firm red lines, even if that meant a breakdown in the dialogue process. So the first red line was 'either talk to us or talk to the separatists.' Both are not acceptable was the clear message.

Simultaneously, Narendra Modi's outreach to other smaller neighbours in the Indian sub-continent--Nepal, Bhutan and a lesser extent to Bangladesh and Sri Lanka--meant India was mending its somewhat wobbly relations with them even as Pakistan was being left out. The last straw however came late in September when Prime Minister Modi traveled to the United States.

First, at the United Nations General Assembly, Modi, much to Pakistan's annoyance, refused to react to Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif's mention of Kashmir in his speech. Then, more ominously for Pakistan, the joint statement at the end of Modi's meeting with President Barack Obama spoke in unambiguous terms the need to dismantle terrorist havens in Af-Pak.

"The leaders stressed the need for joint and concerted efforts, including the dismantling of safe havens for terrorist and criminal networks, to disrupt all financial and tactical support for networks such as Al Qaeda, Lashkar-e Taiba, Jaish-e-Mohammad, the D-Company, and the Haqqanis. They reiterated their call for Pakistan to bring the perpetrators of the November 2008 terrorist attack in Mumbai to justice," the statement said. This was unprecedented.

Was this the beginning of the de-hyphenation of India-Pakistan that Islamabad so dreads? Was Washington finally coming round to accept New Delhi's long-held view that Pakistan-based terrorist groups posed the biggest threat to peace in the Indian sub-continent? For the Pakistani Army, Washington's endorsement of India's stand meant its strategic assets (LeT, the Haqqanis) were in danger of being targeted more vigorously.

This, in the Pakistani Army's mind, was invitation to disaster and more dangerously, to becoming irrelevant. It had to do something to bring Kashmir back in focus and also take control of the country's foreign policy. So what does it do? Fall back on the tried and tested formula of igniting the border with India.

Predictably, it activates the International Border (or what it calls the working boundary) since tactically and topographically it is easy to target villagers around the BSF posts. In earlier years, India would have also fired back appropriately but at the same time would have asked for an immediate flag meeting with Pakistani border guards. A lull would have followed the meeting but firing would have resumed again, making a mockery of the ceasefire both had agreed to in November 2003. This happened repeatedly in 2012 and 2013.

The current government was however not willing to follow the well-known script.

Instead, it issued clear instructions to BSF to respond in kind and some more. The BSF was told unambiguously to retaliate heavily whenever provoked. During the weekly DGMO (Director Generals of Military Operations) conference on telephone last Tuesday and through other informal channels, Pakistan was told that talks and violence cannot go hand in hand. So flag meetings at the border were ruled out.In a clear departure from the past, Pakistan was warned that India is willing to climb the 'escalatory ladder', that is take the border firing to another level if it so desired. The idea was to impose, as Defence Minister Arun Jaitley said, "un-affordable cost," on Pakistan.

Military veterans and serving commanders that I spoke with, welcomed this unambiguous statement of intent from the highest quarters. For a decade and more, most tactical moves they made were subject to clearance from Delhi. No longer. "Now we have been given an overall policy framework but tactical decisions are left to us," a serving general in J&K told me.

Not surprisingly, there have been fears expressed by 'usual suspects' that New Delhi is playing a dangerous game with a nuclear-armed adversary and as a bigger and responsible nation, India should not be indulging in such brinkmanship. So well-entrenched is this view in some quarters on both sides of the border that a Pakistani minister, as if on cue, promptly raised the nuclear bogey.

The fact is: between ceasefire violations and employment of nuclear weapons there are several options available with India to keep Pakistan in check. After nearly 10 days of heavy firing on the border, the tension appears to be winding down. What India must guard against is provocation elsewhere in the form of a covert attack in Kashmir or a terrorist strike in rest of the country. If that happens, the response will have to be punitive. Surely, Indian decision-makers have thought this through and have identified a point where they can terminate the current confrontation after gaining the necessary advantage. Therein lies the trick of using coercive military-diplomatic tactics.



NewsWarrior: It is the de-hyphenation of India-Pakistan that Islamabad fears the most
 

pmaitra

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There is a very old Indian saying :

"Haathi ke Daant khaane ke liye aur Dikahane ke liye aur hoten hain "
I get the idiom, and yes, the elephant's tusks are not meant for chewing, and it uses the smaller teeth for that purpose; but how does that relate to testing our new artillery systems? I have not understood that.
 

NSG_Blackcats

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12 Pakistan rangers killed in recent firing between the troops along the border: Border Security Force

The Border Security Force may have killed as many as a dozen Pakistani Rangers, including one officer, while injuring three personnel of Pakistan Army during the recent exchange of fire between the troops of the two countries along the border, officials familiar with the matter said.

"This casualty toll is, however, uncorroborated. There is no way to confirm it. But BSF believes they have killed a dozen Pakistani Rangers since October 2 night in the firing across the border, which includes an officer," a government official said, emphasising that BSF has inflicted serious damage across the border.
 

tramp

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Obviously Pakistan may not have expected UN to come to their help at this juncture. I do not think that it was their strategic objective when it made the move by raising it in UN first and then warming up the LoC/international border.
They would now turn again to the LoC/international border and escalate it further until UN or US is forced to issue a statement calling for peace.
Pakistani army, which is facing a tidal wave of adverse public opinion because of intensified drone attacks and bombing of FATA area tribes needs some purchase from the eastern border to survive. That must be the provocation for their new misadventure.
What else but the old enemy India to galvanize public opinion and bring all bickering groups to line up behind the army!
The issue is what should be India's approach to the border firing .... India has the option to escalate it which will strengthen Pakistani army's position within that country. Or should it be a long-term attrition that would weaken the army and make it ineffectual? Difficult strategic problems....
One thing is sure, Pakistan army has a very high pain threshold because it is not answerable to the public so long as it is able to show up India as the aggressor. Whatever happens to the people along the border is not its concern. The 'bloody civies' are at best good cannon fodder.
 
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Kshatriya87

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They had "threatened" India that they would take the Kashmir issue to the world and internationalise it. This would be a befitting reply to India as per them. Till now, I don't see any success there. And UN or USA would never intervene here. I feel sorry for pakis.
 

rock127

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Pakis snubbed again as expected... where would Pakis go now? :confused: :lol: :lol:

UN snubs Pak, says won't interfere on Kashmir - Hindustan Times

Pakistan's latest efforts seeking UN intervention on the Kashmir issue have failed to draw any new response from the world body which reiterated that India and Pakistan need to resolve all differences through dialogue to find a long-term solution to the dispute.

Sartaj Aziz, adviser to Pakistan Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif on national security and foreign affairs, had written to UN Secretary General Ban Ki-moon on the recent border tension with India and sought the UN's intervention, stepping up its attempts to internationalise the Kashmir issue.In the letter to Ban, Aziz said Pakistan believes the UN has an important role to play in promoting the objective of peaceful resolution of the Kashmir issue, including through his "good offices".

Ban's deputy spokesperson Farhan Haq, when asked to comment on the letter seeking Ban's intervention and his viewpoint on the issue, told reporters Monday he would refer to a statement that was issued last week by Ban's spokesperson in which the UN chief encouraged India and Pakistan to resolve all differences through dialogue and engage constructively to find a long-term solution for peace and stability in Kashmir.The Secretary-General is "concerned about the recent escalation of violence along the Line of Control between India and Pakistan. He deplores the loss of lives and the displacement of civilians on both sides," said the statement.

A war of words between the two countries over the situation at the LoC took place last week at the UN General Assembly where India said that it was a "matter of deep regret" that Pakistan violated the ceasefire, in which eight people were killed and several others injured. India made it clear that its armed forces are "fully ready" to respond to "provocation".

India also said that the onus of creating a positive environment for normalisation of relations is on Pakistan.The UN has long maintained an institutional presence in the contested area between the two countries.

The UN Military Observer Group in India and Pakistan (UNMOGIP) observes and reports on ceasefire violations along and across the LoC and the working boundary between the South Asian neighbours in Jammu and Kashmir, as well as reports developments that could lead to ceasefire violations.India has however always maintained that UNMOGIP has "outlived its relevance" and has "no role to play whatsoever" on the issue.
 

Srinivas_K

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They had "threatened" India that they would take the Kashmir issue to the world and internationalise it. This would be a befitting reply to India as per them. Till now, I don't see any success there. And UN or USA would never intervene here. I feel sorry for pakis.
Why Sorry for Pakistan??

India has no cruel intentions towards Pakistanis nor India fear for big brother status.

They are showing Kashmir as the sole reason and waging Islamic Jiahad all these times, in fact Kashmir is not their only concern. Their main aim is Mugalistan.

India never stopped their waters which originated from India, Plus India gave a water treaty like no other country in this world.

These Jihadists are anti India and expansionists, simple !!
 
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ezsasa

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If you look at nawaz sharif's point of view,

  1. He has made India say no to bilateral talks,
  2. He has managed to divert some attention from imran khan's drama,atleast 50% of paki talk shows diverted their attention to LOC issue
  3. He has managed to play the victim card in the international forum.
  4. Pak army has started complaining to the americans that it is difficult to continue with Zarb-e-whatever with escalating scenario with india.
  5. He is free to take up kashmiri cause again, should help in winning re-elections if any because of imran-khan problem.
  6. He now knows that we will escalate any border issue, he can now ensure we will keep firing once every month till pakistan's attention is restored in his favour.
  7. He has a chance to be back in good books of PA,if he manages to give indications that he is willing to take up kashmir issue in favour of what PA wants.


From Modi's point of view

  1. He has confirmed offensive-defence strategy.
  2. He has confirmed that "No talks as long as guns are firing"
  3. He has confirmed to international forum that kashmir issue is a bilateral issue,no outside help required. basically we will not be going to U.S/U.N even if things get escalated
 

Blackwater

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Pakis snubbed again as expected... where would Pakis go now? :confused: :lol: :lol:

UN snubs Pak, says won't interfere on Kashmir - Hindustan Times

Pakistan's latest efforts seeking UN intervention on the Kashmir issue have failed to draw any new response from the world body which reiterated that India and Pakistan need to resolve all differences through dialogue to find a long-term solution to the dispute.

Sartaj Aziz, adviser to Pakistan Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif on national security and foreign affairs, had written to UN Secretary General Ban Ki-moon on the recent border tension with India and sought the UN's intervention, stepping up its attempts to internationalise the Kashmir issue.In the letter to Ban, Aziz said Pakistan believes the UN has an important role to play in promoting the objective of peaceful resolution of the Kashmir issue, including through his "good offices".

Ban's deputy spokesperson Farhan Haq, when asked to comment on the letter seeking Ban's intervention and his viewpoint on the issue, told reporters Monday he would refer to a statement that was issued last week by Ban's spokesperson in which the UN chief encouraged India and Pakistan to resolve all differences through dialogue and engage constructively to find a long-term solution for peace and stability in Kashmir.The Secretary-General is "concerned about the recent escalation of violence along the Line of Control between India and Pakistan. He deplores the loss of lives and the displacement of civilians on both sides," said the statement.

A war of words between the two countries over the situation at the LoC took place last week at the UN General Assembly where India said that it was a "matter of deep regret" that Pakistan violated the ceasefire, in which eight people were killed and several others injured. India made it clear that its armed forces are "fully ready" to respond to "provocation".

India also said that the onus of creating a positive environment for normalisation of relations is on Pakistan.The UN has long maintained an institutional presence in the contested area between the two countries.

The UN Military Observer Group in India and Pakistan (UNMOGIP) observes and reports on ceasefire violations along and across the LoC and the working boundary between the South Asian neighbours in Jammu and Kashmir, as well as reports developments that could lead to ceasefire violations.India has however always maintained that UNMOGIP has "outlived its relevance" and has "no role to play whatsoever" on the issue.
This is wat we called baesti kharab hona
 

Neo

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'Hot-line' contact: DGMOs discuss flare-up as UN observers visit border

October 15, 2014



A UN observer interacts with a boy who was injured by Indian firing. PHOTO: INP


ISLAMABAD: Pakistani and Indian military officials opened contact through the 'hotline' on Tuesday in a bid to discuss escalating tensions along the Line of Control (LoC) and Working Boundary.

The development coincided with a tour by a team of UN military observers of the villages badly hit by Indian firing near Sialkot.


The contact between directors general of military operations (DGMO) of Pakistan and Indian armies was the first since tensions flared up at the LoC and Working Boundary more than a week ago.

A military official, speaking on the condition of anonymity, said Pakistan's DGMO conveyed concern to his Indian counterpart and pointed towards India's "unprovoked firing on the civilian population living along the LoC and Working Boundary."

According to figures provided by the Inter-Services Public Relations (ISPR), as many as a dozen Pakistani nationals have so far lost their lives due to Indian firing, which has also caused serious injuries to 64 civilians, mostly along the Working Boundary.

The interaction between the two militaries was seen as significant in view of the ongoing clashes. However, contact by mid-level army officials from both sides suggested that the situation may not improve in the near future.

Pakistan accuses Indian security forces of targeting civilians inhabiting villages all along the working boundary. "Day-to-day living of civil population all along working boundary is badly affected. People have almost fled their homes and taken refuge in the nearest safe places," said the ISPR.

It said India had committed 24 ceasefire violations on the Working Boundary and 26 along the LoC since October 1.
Between Monday and Tuesday, a team of the UN Military Observers Group in India and Pakistan (UNMOGIP) visited the Charwah, Chaprar and Pukhlian sectors on the Working Boundary near Sialkot.


The UN observers travelled to the affected areas after Pakistan lodged a strong protest with the UNMOGIP over unprovoked Indian firing/shelling on working boundary and LoC. According to army's media wing, the UN observers met the villagers, witnessed and gathered firsthand account of damage caused to human lives and property due to recent Indian shelling on the Working Boundary.

The UN observers' team also visited the Combined Military Hospital Sialkot and met civilians who have been injured due to Indian firing.

The ISPR pointed out that that as per UN resolutions, Pakistan is utilising the good offices of the UNMOGIP, which is in place on both side along the LoC and Working Boundary to investigate such incidents or violations by either side.

"Pakistan offers full access to the UNMOGIP observers to investigate and bring the facts in front of the world; however, the Indians have always been reluctant and deny access to UNMOGIP observers on their side," it added.

Foreign ministry briefs diplomatic corps

The Ministry of Foreign Affairs also briefed the entire diplomatic corps based in Islamabad on the situation arising from the ceasefire violations along the LoC and the Working Boundary by the Indian armed forces.

The briefing included a detailed presentation by a senior representative of the Military Operations Directorate, who explained the on-ground situation, the frequency and intensity of the 'unprovoked and indiscriminate' firing and shelling by the Indian security forces since September 30, 2014, and details of civilian casualties, injuries and damage to property, said a press statement.

He also informed that efforts towards restoring peace and tranquility on the LoC and the Working Boundary through available means of communications were not responded to by the Indian side.

"On a few occasions of sector-level hotline contacts, the Indian side refused to acknowledge that its troops were firing, despite intense shelling on the civilian population in Pakistan, taking place at that time," he added.


In his remarks, Special Assistant to the Prime Minister Tariq Fatemi reiterated Pakistan's policy for establishing good neighbourly relations with India. Referring to the positive overtures of Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif to the previous and present Indian governments, he said early restoration of peace and tranquility on the LoC and the WB was of paramount importance to the region.

Fatemi expressed concern that the Indian ceasefire violations were increasingly targeting Pakistani territory across the Working Boundary.

"In the face of adversity, the people of Pakistan stand united with the Government and Armed Forces of Pakistan to safeguard Pakistan's sovereignty and territorial integrity. There will be no compromise on the country's core interests," said the special assistant.

In the context of the long outstanding dispute of Jammu and Kashmir, he referred to the United Nations Secretary General's repeated statements that UN resolutions do not fade away with the passage of time.

"The credibility of the UN system is at stake if its resolutions remain unimplemented as all member countries look up to this sole international body, to address issues relating to peace and stability," he added.

'Hot-line' contact: DGMOs discuss flare-up as UN observers visit border – The Express Tribune
 
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Bhadra

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I get the idiom, and yes, the elephant's tusks are not meant for chewing, and it uses the smaller teeth for that purpose; but how does that relate to testing our new artillery systems? I have not understood that.
Testing ... Testing and Testing ...

They are even now testing their stuff they started 40 years back...

So let them ...... do testing testing, photo and photo ... they will scare the hell out of the enemy by having a big bank of photos and press releases...

Because had those fired the world would speak for them .........

Ye Na thi hamari kismet ke vishale yaar hota ...
 

pmaitra

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Testing ... Testing and Testing ...

They are even now testing their stuff they started 40 years back...

So let them ...... do testing testing, photo and photo ... they will scare the hell out of the enemy by having a big bank of photos and press releases...

Because had those fired the world would speak for them .........

Ye Na thi hamari kismet ke vishale yaar hota ...
I am not sure whether it is a wise idea to induct untested weapon systems. However, there can be cases where weapons may be required to be inducted before the entire testing cycle is complete, depending upon the needs.

In any case, I think someone has clarified that (privately made?) artillery tests are not done in India.
 

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