OROP: Pension promise in peril?

[pmaitra]

I have seen officers children attending 10 or more schools before they pass their class 12th examination - need I tell you what catastrophic effects it has on them?

I agree with this point.

Been there, done that, as I am a Railway Child.

I agree that pensions need to be normalized..that they need to reflect the current inflation prices.

The issue here is the economic model we follow. I have to tell @Bhadra that this is not a fauji specific issue.

Say, soldier A retires at colonel rank in 1980 and draws some pension thereon; and another soldier B retires at colonel rank in 2000 and draws a different pension thereon. Both of them should ideally earn the same pension in 2010. That does not happen in reality.

Say a civilian works for 40 years, and saves half his salary in the bank. After retirement, he should have enough money to live life off his bank account for the next 40 years. Again, that does not happen in reality.

So, the problem is, the value of the currency keeps fluctuating. It is one thing if it fluctuates due to natural causes, but another thing when it is deliberately manipulated causing socio-economic upheaval. I ask @Sakal Gharelu Ustad to offer his remedies to this problem.

 

[Bangalorean]

@Bhadra

My father was a central government employee. I have changed 7 schools in my childhood. Apart from the hardship, I have also encountered language problems and all the other associated troubles w.r.t. constant migration. Not to mention the difficulty of getting an engineering seat due to the local/outsider quota issue. My Dad was posted in various remote places and I have grown up mostly with my Mom and brother. All these hardships you mention are encountered by people in various government sectors including railways, as @pmaitra has said.

I have always been a supporter of OROP, without reservations. But the attitude of *some* veterans has been disgusting, to say the least. Panag, Pushpinder, etc. are politically motivated veterans who have an agenda. Pushpinder is a relative of Congressi Hooda. Panag and his daughter are AAP supporters. Their attitude is sickening and disgusting.

This government gave a bonanza to the veterans, and the exchequer is poorer by Rs. 10000 crore per annum due to this bonanza. No government was willing to give in all these years. This 42-year old festering issue was something no government was willing to take up. After all this, one would expect a little graciousness.

But what do we have here? Panag and Pushpinder are calling Modi "gaddaar" and saying that they "would not have made him PM if they knew this". The apolitical ethos of the Army is being severely dented by this small bunch of politically-motivated agenda-driven veterans.

Any negotiation is about give-and-take. Cannot have a "my way or highway" approach. What the government has announced constitutes 90% of the veterans' demands. A 5 year revision is reasonable. And I would not want to give OROP to anyone who leaves the Army for greener pastures in the private sector, or abroad. The nation spends hard-earned money to make boys into men in the NDA. If, before completion of tenure, the soldier decides to quit and join Jet Airways or set up his own business, he does not deserve OROP.

Soldiers getting into premature retirement due to battle injuries or other injuries during the call of duty should get OROP. But not those who voluntarily leave for greener pastures.

This is only fair. If my father had quit even one day before his retirement day, he would not have been eligible for pension. That is how it is, and that is how it should be.

 

[pmaitra]

This OROP debate should enlighten us with the understanding that every entity has grievances, and all grievances need to be listened to, and those that express their grievances should not be mocked and labelled "Rudaali Brigade."

 

[Simple_Guy]

OROP – is it really granted ?

As mentioned in these columns earlier, money is never the constraint to deny annual equalization of pensions. In the period 2007-2013 government banks accumulated bad debts amounting to Rs 5,00,000,00,00,000 which were written off by the Finance Ministry. More significantly, RBI revealed that ‘95%’ were large loans to ‘big companies ‘. This is just one example which perhaps is standard practice by all governments. Then look at the bad debts of sick PSUs including Air India being written off – some even inflated for understandable reasons. Incidentally, MoD surrendered Rs 6000 crores on 31st March this year as also Rs 1000 crores or the National War Memorial lapsed same day.

 

[CrYsIs]

@Bhadra

My father was a central government employee. I have changed 7 schools in my childhood. Apart from the hardship, I have also encountered language problems and all the other associated troubles w.r.t. constant migration. Not to mention the difficulty of getting an engineering seat due to the local/outsider quota issue. My Dad was posted in various remote places and I have grown up mostly with my Mom and brother. All these hardships you mention are encountered by people in various government sectors including railways, as @pmaitra has said.

I have always been a supporter of OROP, without reservations. But the attitude of *some* veterans has been disgusting, to say the least. Panag, Pushpinder, etc. are politically motivated veterans who have an agenda. Pushpinder is a relative of Congressi Hooda. Panag and his daughter are AAP supporters. Their attitude is sickening and disgusting.

This government gave a bonanza to the veterans, and the exchequer is poorer by Rs. 10000 crore per annum due to this bonanza. No government was willing to give in all these years. This 42-year old festering issue was something no government was willing to take up. After all this, one would expect a little graciousness.

But what do we have here? Panag and Pushpinder are calling Modi "gaddaar" and saying that they "would not have made him PM if they knew this". The apolitical ethos of the Army is being severely dented by this small bunch of politically-motivated agenda-driven veterans.

Any negotiation is about give-and-take. Cannot have a "my way or highway" approach. What the government has announced constitutes 90% of the veterans' demands. A 5 year revision is reasonable. And I would not want to give OROP to anyone who leaves the Army for greener pastures in the private sector, or abroad. The nation spends hard-earned money to make boys into men in the NDA. If, before completion of tenure, the soldier decides to quit and join Jet Airways or set up his own business, he does not deserve OROP.

Soldiers getting into premature retirement due to battle injuries or other injuries during the call of duty should get OROP. But not those who voluntarily leave for greener pastures.

This is only fair. If my father had quit even one day before his retirement day, he would not have been eligible for pension. That is how it is, and that is how it should be.

Do you realize that the 1.4 million army men are the ultimate defenders of Sovereignty.The government or the courts or the bureaucracy are toothless people without these men.There is a country called India existing in the world map because of these soldiers and not because of any political party or an individual.

What they are demanding is not unjustified,they are demanding to be paid the same retirement perks as the current retirees.

If money has to be saved,then cancel OROP for civil servants,most of whom are now living in multi storied houses built using ill gotten wealth or cancel perks,subsidies and benefits to political class or sell off stakes in banks most of whom have become non performing assets or in PSU's who too are making big losses.

Government has 4000 crores for air India and 7000 crores for useless Public sector banks but no money for those who defend the country at 20,000 feet.

 

[Bangalorean]

Do you realize that the 1.4 million army men are the ultimate defenders of Sovereignty.The government or the courts or the bureaucracy are toothless people without these men.There is a country called India existing in the world map because of these soldiers and not because of any political party or an individual.

What they are demanding is not unjustified,they are demanding to be paid the same retirement perks as the current retirees.

If money has to be saved,then cancel OROP for civil servants,most of whom are now living in multi storied houses built using ill gotten wealth or cancel perks,subsidies and benefits to political class or sell off stakes in banks most of whom have become non performing assets or in PSU's who too are making big losses.

Government has 4000 crores for air India and 7000 crores for useless Public sector banks but no money for those who defend the country at 20,000 feet.

Before making emotionally charged useless posts, read what I wrote.

I am all for OROP, have always been for it. I am against the small bunch of politically motivated veterans who have no shame or grace. I am talking about Pushpinder and Panag (I won't even refer to them by their military rank, they don't deserve that respect any longer).

Who is saying that money should not be spent on the retirees? On the contrary, I feel that the govt. should get out of all business and run only judiciary, police, defence and regulatory authorities. And these sectors should be very well paid.

Again, before making emotionally charged useless shit posts, read and understand what is being written.

 

[ezsasa]

One of my observations during the OROP agitation is that veterans have no clue about effort it takes to revise pension calculations. Even for a private company of 10,000 employees it takes atleast 45 days to rewrite programs and finish processing of payments. For 2.2 million ex-servicemen pretty sure there will hundreds of poor souls who will be pulling all-nighters to complete the pension calculations in time. I am calling these payroll dept employees poor souls because nobody recognises their efforts and may not even get paid overtime for the effort.

 

[Yumdoot]

OROP – is it really granted ?

As mentioned in these columns earlier, money is never the constraint to deny annual equalization of pensions. In the period 2007-2013 government banks accumulated bad debts amounting to Rs 5,00,000,00,00,000 which were written off by the Finance Ministry. More significantly, RBI revealed that ‘95%’ were large loans to ‘big companies ‘. This is just one example which perhaps is standard practice by all governments. Then look at the bad debts of sick PSUs including Air India being written off – some even inflated for understandable reasons. Incidentally, MoD surrendered Rs 6000 crores on 31st March this year as also Rs 1000 crores or the National War Memorial lapsed same day.

Now that is a great observation. But you failed to keep your gaze long enough.

How many from among the Jantar-Mantar wale Jernail-Karnail ever said anything about it. They were more than happy to serve right under the system that caused this. Nay, they helped protect it under the guise of their 'Shapat' towards the constitution.

Actually let us ignore even these Jernails and Kernails. Just let us know the number of so called apolitical-true secular-very honest-well educated-officer like material-strong moral fiber type guys from the officer cadre who mentioned one godamned thing about this. After all with such great accomplishments they can be expected to learn something about what is happening in the country.

Jaane do. OROP was a rationale requirement, was needed and Modi/BJP had promised it. It came at a somewhat inopportune moment but I am sure with skills the budget will easily get managed and some method will be developed to cater to the administrative needs it imposes, directly or indirectly. The Markets have already discounted in future cash flows the Modi-factor and India will be out of the woods in next 2-3 years tops. There are a few careerist imbeciles involved in front running the jantar mantar drama but for the goodwill of the mass of the armed forces which is born and bred off the janata-janardan of this country, we all should learn to not mind, everytime it hurts.

 

[hit&run]

Watched Barkha Dutt's program from Hussaniwala.

The whole discussion was made look discouraging youth and young officers not to join this profession.

The contradiction were visible, the veterans who were complaining about Government have their own young sons serving the forces today. In one phrase they were disappointed in next sentence they were doing a lip service of uttering cliches preaching youngsters to join.

What about InA being a volunteer force that now they are protesting on road for better perks ??

I am thinking that the unconditional respect for army that comes right from heart needs to be moderated.

The scams, the mediocrity that is cloaked with an excuse of lack of political will, wasn't given enough coverage, including no accountability was put in place when they were caught pants down during Kargil.

But now they all are cribbing on the sidelines of a war memorial for a bad deal in front of journalist who sleeps with Pakistanis (not literally); which was never a deal in the first place.

It tells a lot about how these people can talk in two voices when serving and when retired. Or they are being fooled by media propaganda as the same lot never uttered a word against previous government ?

 

[hit&run]

http://www.ndtv.com/video/player/we...imes-of-pension-battle/381730?video-top-shows

 

[ezsasa]

Watched Barkha Dutt's program from Hussaniwala.

The whole discussion was made look discouraging youth and young officers not to join this profession.

The contradiction were visible, the veterans who were complaining about Government have their own young sons serving the forces today. In one phrase they were disappointed in next sentence they were doing a lip service of uttering cliches preaching youngsters to join.

What about InA being a volunteer force that now they are protesting on road for better perks ??

I am thinking that the unconditional respect for army that comes right from heart needs to be moderated.

The scams, the mediocrity that is cloaked with an excuse of lack of political will, wasn't given enough coverage, including no accountability was put in place when they were caught pants down during Kargil.

But now they all are cribbing on the sidelines of a war memorial for a bad deal in front of journalist who sleeps with Pakistanis (not literally); which was never a deal in the first place.

It tells a lot about how these people can talk in two voices when serving and when retired. Or they are being fooled by media propaganda as the same lot never uttered a word against previous government ?

Yup, I had the same feeling while watching that show. To me it didn't look like a 1965 commemoration debate , it looked more like that the main objective was to incite discontent among the ranks.

 

[Yumdoot]

It tells a lot about how these people can talk in two voices when serving and when retired. Or they are being fooled by media propaganda as the same lot never uttered a word against previous government ?

If you are willing to accept that the mass of the armed forces are an organic growth of the Janata of this country then it is easy to understand that genuine grievances are marinated in propaganda and these officers also get fooled like any other man on the street.

BDutt is a known saboteur.

 

[jackprince]

http://www.tkbsen.in/2015/09/now-central-employees-demand-one-rank-one-pension/?no_redirect=true

Now, Central Employees Demand One Rank One Pension
New Delhi: Now, central government employees specially railway employees also have raised the demand for One Rank One Pension (OROP), saying that they should not be ignored as like the defence personnel they also have dedicated their services to the nation. After the government announced the One Rank One Pension (OROP) scheme for defence personnel on Saturday.


Shiv Gopal Mishra (centre), General Secretary of All-India Railwaymen’s Fedration



“The issue of One Rank One Pension (OROP) for central government employees was discussed in the Seventh Pay Commission and we will study the proposal for the defence personnel and then talk to the government and push for One Rank One Pension (OROP) for central government employees specially railway employees,” Shiv Gopal Mishra, General Secretary of All-India Railwaymen’s Federation said.

“Central government employees are also performing dedicated service to the nation and the especially railways is the lifeline of the country and working round-the-clock,” he added.

Currently there are 48 lakh employees including 13.26 lakh railways employees are working in the central government departments and ministries.

Taking on lawmakers, Mishra said, “MPs are increasing their salaries whenever they want to increase. They even get full pension irrespective of their term or attendance.”

The 42-year-old demand for One Rank One Pension for ex-servicemen has finally been granted by the government on Saturday. So, central government employees may ask themselves, “How long do we have to wait for ours turn?”

TST


...............................

Yeh to hona hi thaaa!!! As predicted by me.

 

[Mad Indian]

http://www.tkbsen.in/2015/09/now-central-employees-demand-one-rank-one-pension/?no_redirect=true

Now, Central Employees Demand One Rank One Pension
New Delhi: Now, central government employees specially railway employees also have raised the demand for One Rank One Pension (OROP), saying that they should not be ignored as like the defence personnel they also have dedicated their services to the nation. After the government announced the One Rank One Pension (OROP) scheme for defence personnel on Saturday.


Shiv Gopal Mishra (centre), General Secretary of All-India Railwaymen’s Fedration



“The issue of One Rank One Pension (OROP) for central government employees was discussed in the Seventh Pay Commission and we will study the proposal for the defence personnel and then talk to the government and push for One Rank One Pension (OROP) for central government employees specially railway employees,” Shiv Gopal Mishra, General Secretary of All-India Railwaymen’s Federation said.

“Central government employees are also performing dedicated service to the nation and the especially railways is the lifeline of the country and working round-the-clock,” he added.

Currently there are 48 lakh employees including 13.26 lakh railways employees are working in the central government departments and ministries.

Taking on lawmakers, Mishra said, “MPs are increasing their salaries whenever they want to increase. They even get full pension irrespective of their term or attendance.”

The 42-year-old demand for One Rank One Pension for ex-servicemen has finally been granted by the government on Saturday. So, central government employees may ask themselves, “How long do we have to wait for ours turn?”

TST


...............................

Yeh to hona hi thaaa!!! As predicted by me.

No offense but they can all jump off a cliff and I wouldn't give a damn. They have smooched from govt enough

 

[CrYsIs]

Before making emotionally charged useless posts, read what I wrote.

I am all for OROP, have always been for it. I am against the small bunch of politically motivated veterans who have no shame or grace. I am talking about Pushpinder and Panag (I won't even refer to them by their military rank, they don't deserve that respect any longer).

Who is saying that money should not be spent on the retirees? On the contrary, I feel that the govt. should get out of all business and run only judiciary, police, defence and regulatory authorities. And these sectors should be very well paid.

Again, before making emotionally charged useless shit posts, read and understand what is being written.

You termed that 10,000 crore as Bonanza which is grossly insulting to any veteran.This is not some prize money or gift money that Veterans are demanding,they are demanding a thing which they rightfully deserve.

And you further say that the country got poorer by 10,000 crore.

If the country cannot afford a large military,why not downsize it ? When you employ people,they deserve perks and benefits and an armyman enjoys much less benefit than your average pot bellied policeman or civil servant.
If we cut down the benefits of these useless government employees and MLA's & MP's,we probably would be saving twice this OROP amount.

And then you say those who leave army for greener pastures should not deserve OROP....

Most do not leave the army because they have some greed in their mind.It's because if you serve full term,the chances of reemployment in civil sector after retirement is greatly diminished.

And you are grossly misinformed about retirement.Anyone who leave the servcies before completing 20 years of service is not entitled to any pension.Further those pilots who wish to leave early in their career will have to refund back the entire training cost.

Finally you say Gen Panag and Col Pushpindra have politics in their mind.Do you not know that armymen irrespective of their political affiliation support their cause.Not to mention Col Pushpendra's health has worsened and is now in ICU.

 

[Yumdoot]

This premise of 'greener pastures' is also another pull towards an invalid edge of all rational thought.

We have a volunteers based armed force born out of a cultural framework where military work is just as normal and valid a work as any other. So if people decide to move on that too should be accorded normal respect as is given to serving on. Let us just treat it all as normal instead of pedestalizing it at one point. Only to derogate a personal choice again on account of basic forces of nature. Remember it was the basic force of personal nature that brought them to serve in the first place.

Thank you for serving and thank you for taking on new roles after serving.

In any case a Veer is a Veer under the impulse of his own basic nature, without any reference of any kind to salary structures, pension plans, privileges, chuttis etc. and this country was never short of Veers. So please, stop being anxious.

Having said that people who are belittling NDA version of OROP need to understand that the youngsters are not the ones that are happy. NDA-OROP will help them well into the future and ie. if some other pension policy is not brought in. People who are happy are the oldies and widows who have been slogging at considerably lower pensions for last several years. People who were ignored in the old structure.

You can safely ignore the few tens of thousands of officers when it comes to the pensions. They do actually get good enough parity in copious number of jobs in the civilian job market at reasonable management levels. Army in any case has settlement plans (based on further/continuing education) made available to these officers. Something not there and not even good enough for jawans.

 

[Bangalorean]

You termed that 10,000 crore as Bonanza which is grossly insulting to any veteran.This is not some prize money or gift money that Veterans are demanding,they are demanding a thing which they rightfully deserve.

And you further say that the country got poorer by 10,000 crore.

If the country cannot afford a large military,why not downsize it ? When you employ people,they deserve perks and benefits and an armyman enjoys much less benefit than your average pot bellied policeman or civil servant.
If we cut down the benefits of these useless government employees and MLA's & MP's,we probably would be saving twice this OROP amount.

And then you say those who leave army for greener pastures should not deserve OROP....

Most do not leave the army because they have some greed in their mind.It's because if you serve full term,the chances of reemployment in civil sector after retirement is greatly diminished.

And you are grossly misinformed about retirement.Anyone who leave the servcies before completing 20 years of service is not entitled to any pension.Further those pilots who wish to leave early in their career will have to refund back the entire training cost.

Finally you say Gen Panag and Col Pushpindra have politics in their mind.Do you not know that armymen irrespective of their political affiliation support their cause.Not to mention Col Pushpendra's health has worsened and is now in ICU.

The country needs a large military. OROP is also essential. What part of this did you not understand?

The country is "poorer" by 10,000 crore, and this is a fact. It is also a fact that this is essential expenditure. Quit nitpicking on words and phrases.

There is absolutely no comparison being made with pot-bellied netas, there is no need to bring unnecessary stuff into the debate.

As far as "greed" is concerned, there is nothing wrong with being "greedy" for money. Why should a serviceman not take up an offer from Indigo or L&T or Tata if he is adequately compensated financially? Its ok. All I am saying is, in that case, OROP should not apply.

Panag and Pushpendra were supported by Armymen for the cause of OROP in general. Now, many ex-servicemen are celebrating on the streets in various parts of the nation. These two people are peddling a political agenda.

 

[CrYsIs]

The country needs a large military. OROP is also essential. What part of this did you not understand?

The country is "poorer" by 10,000 crore, and this is a fact. It is also a fact that this is essential expenditure. Quit nitpicking on words and phrases.

There is absolutely no comparison being made with pot-bellied netas, there is no need to bring unnecessary stuff into the debate.

As far as "greed" is concerned, there is nothing wrong with being "greedy" for money. Why should a serviceman not take up an offer from Indigo or L&T or Tata if he is adequately compensated financially? Its ok. All I am saying is, in that case, OROP should not apply.

Panag and Pushpendra were supported by Armymen for the cause of OROP in general. Now, many ex-servicemen are celebrating on the streets in various parts of the nation. These two people are peddling a political agenda.

You must understand that military service is not like your other regular 6-9 government job.It's a highly stressful job and can wreck you inside out.That is why many leave after 20 years of service.Also as i said before,serving the full tenure of 30 years would not be beneficial because there would be very few employment opportunities post retirement.Most of these companies hire armymen as security officers.While this might be suited for some but not for many with higher academic qualifications and ranks.

 

[Simple_Guy]

OROP will boost consumption and benefit the economy​

In any case, if the real issue is only the impact on central finances, there is also the counter-argument: when consumption demand in the economy is weak and business is not investing, a higher payment to ex-servicemen may be just the pep consumption demand needs.

It is an established fact that whenever public sector pay rises after the implementation of pay commission recommendations (the next pay commission's recommendations will have to be implemented from next year), consumer demand picks up and growth revives. In an economy that wants to raise its growth momentum and jobs, what can be better than an additional Rs 10,000-20,000 crore in the hands of consumers, thanks to OROP? And remember, higher demand leads to higher tax revenues from increased economic activity and hence lowers the fiscal deficit after a lag.

Moneycontrol.com

7th Pay Commission is coming​

pay increases granted by the commission can act as a stimulus to the economy by boosting the consumption leg of GDP. At last count, India employed 48 lakh Central government employees and 55 lakh pensioners and over one crore State and local government employees. The Fourteenth Finance Commission estimates that after the Sixth Pay Commission, pay and allowances to Central government employees more than doubled in a four-year period between 2007-08 and 2011-12.

Hindubusinessline

Companies salivating at the prospects of consumption growth
​

Investors expect Maruti Suzuki to get a boost from the Seventh Pay Commission's recommendations later this year that will lead to salaries of government employees rising. The Pay Commission is expected to submit its report by October and this is likely to be implemented from July 2016, likely adding to an expected double-digit growth in passenger car sales in FY17. Maruti Suzuki is expected to be the main beneficiary, analysts said. The last Pay Commission report had resulted in car sales rising 18 per cent annually between FY09 and FY11.

"The Sixth Pay Commission, which was implemented in August 2008, resulted in almost 10 times increase in Maruti's sales to government employees from FY08 to FY12," Jatin Chawla and Akshay Saxena, research analysts at Credit Suisse, wrote in a July 15 report.

"We have sold almost 200,000 vehicles to government employees in FY15," said Randhir Singh Kalsi, executive director, sales, Maruti Suzuki. "We certainly believe we can get more incremental volumes after implementation of the Seventh Pay Commission."

Economictimes

 

[Bhadra]

One of my observations during the OROP agitation is that veterans have no clue about effort it takes to revise pension calculations. Even for a private company of 10,000 employees it takes atleast 45 days to rewrite programs and finish processing of payments. For 2.2 million ex-servicemen pretty sure there will hundreds of poor souls who will be pulling all-nighters to complete the pension calculations in time. I am calling these payroll dept employees poor souls because nobody recognises their efforts and may not even get paid overtime for the effort.

Do you have an idea what structure the MoD has created solely for the purpose of pension :

The pension establishment of Defence has been growing substantially. Consequently, the responsibility of the department to determine the entitlement and make prompt payments of pensions has increased. In order to handle this complex task, there is a PCDA (P) located at Allahabad to deal with the sanctions of pensions in respect of the Service personnel (excluding Air Force and Navy personnel which are sanctioned by CDA (Air Force) and PCDA (Navy) respectively ) defence civilians and the staff of the Defence Accounts Department. He is assisted by a Controller of Defence Accounts in the Main Office. In addition, there is a Controller at Meerut dealing with the disbursement of pensions through 49 Defence Pension Disbursing Offices (DPDOs) located in various States. 11 DPDOs also function under the CDA (Chenai), who is responsible for disbursement of pension in four Southern States.

Here is the main structure solely for the purpose of officers. other ranks of Army pensioners and defense civilians:

http://www.pcdapension.nic.in/gen/orgstruc.htm

And one must know that Provident Funds and Group insurance schemes of the three Services are not dealt with by this Deptt - and three services have to fend for themselves. A Service which deals with life and death and when occurrences of such nature are high and thus insurance outgo is high - is left to the services themselves - laughable - is not it?

The pension babus _ the less said about them the better ..... They would not even allow a poor ex serviceman to even die peacefully and make his widow cry...