More trouble in MMRCA deal

sayareakd

Mod
Joined
Feb 17, 2009
Messages
17,734
Likes
18,952
Country flag
No one wants to lose the contract, neither IAF nor the Dassault... both will be loser on such a situation... Hope in next two months all such issues will be resolved...
start talking to EF guys and Rafale would come on line, if they dont lets buy EF. Dassault has to fulfill the terms and condition of contract they cant say this we will accept and this we wont. So what is the point of bidding in tender if they dont want to fulfill the requirement of tender.
 

Armand2REP

CHINI EXPERT
Senior Member
Joined
Dec 17, 2009
Messages
13,811
Likes
6,734
Country flag
start talking to EF guys and Rafale would come on line, if they dont lets buy EF. Dassault has to fulfill the terms and condition of contract they cant say this we will accept and this we wont. So what is the point of bidding in tender if they dont want to fulfill the requirement of tender.
It isn't about that. It is about being subject to penalties when, not if HAL messes it up.
 

arnabmit

Homo Communis Indus
Senior Member
Joined
Dec 25, 2012
Messages
6,242
Likes
7,522
Country flag
I agree that Dassault should not be penalized for any delays by HAL.

However not having some sort of penalty clause would result in Dassault not sharing advanced manufacturing techniques and Procedures which would result in HAL manufacturing delays.

It isn't about that. It is about being subject to penalties when, not if HAL messes it up.
 

sayareakd

Mod
Joined
Feb 17, 2009
Messages
17,734
Likes
18,952
Country flag
It isn't about that. It is about being subject to penalties when, not if HAL messes it up.
it is quite funny when Reliance has no experience you want to have it as partner for complete TOT, whereas HAL which is making complete SU 30 MKI from raw material, you say you will not be responsible for delay therefore you will not give complete TOT to HAL.

First share the Complete TOT then we will see if they dont provide it then given it to Relience or sell that division to reliance.
 

Armand2REP

CHINI EXPERT
Senior Member
Joined
Dec 17, 2009
Messages
13,811
Likes
6,734
Country flag
it is quite funny when Reliance has no experience you want to have it as partner for complete TOT, whereas HAL which is making complete SU 30 MKI from raw material, you say you will not be responsible for delay therefore you will not give complete TOT to HAL.

First share the Complete TOT then we will see if they dont provide it then given it to Relience or sell that division to reliance.
No offence, but Rafale production is far more complex than Su-30.
 

sayareakd

Mod
Joined
Feb 17, 2009
Messages
17,734
Likes
18,952
Country flag
No offence, but Rafale production is far more complex than Su-30.
exactly the point, you dont want to give job to most experience man but willing to give job to person who has zero experience at our expense. Reliance's profits speaks, it does not say how they arrived at that figure.
 

Armand2REP

CHINI EXPERT
Senior Member
Joined
Dec 17, 2009
Messages
13,811
Likes
6,734
Country flag
exactly the point, you dont want to give job to most experience man but willing to give job to person who has zero experience at our expense. Reliance's profits speaks, it does not say how they arrived at that figure.
The intent was never to have Reliance assemble the frame, it was going to be responsible for wiring, component assembly and certain fabs. It was still going to be screwdrivered at HAL.
 

SilentKiller

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 20, 2013
Messages
799
Likes
377
Country flag
I have intuition that deal will go ahead...india will get around 200 Rafale...
if HAL in incapable to take all tasks, give some of its work to private player!!
 

arya

Senior Member
Joined
Sep 14, 2009
Messages
3,006
Likes
1,531
Country flag
I have intuition that deal will go ahead...india will get around 200 Rafale...
if HAL in incapable to take all tasks, give some of its work to private player!!
well and ask from your intution how much time will our govt will take , what will use if they take 2-3 yrs .
 

SilentKiller

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 20, 2013
Messages
799
Likes
377
Country flag
well and ask from your intution how much time will our govt will take , what will use if they take 2-3 yrs .
My intuition says within few months...
fingers crossed but deal will go through!!.

Always hope for best!!:thumb:
 

Shirman

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 13, 2012
Messages
697
Likes
411
Country flag
Drop the project ...and go invest more on our Indigineous AMCA:boxing:
I have a super duper idea why don't we go for Indegineous 6th gen fighter to rival boeing f/a-xx.........pak-fa/fgfa, Amca. f-35.f-22 are so common don't you think...mighty Pakistanis can bring down any 5th gen just by looking at it..........:rolleyes::sad:
 

Kunal Biswas

Member of the Year 2011
Ambassador
Joined
May 26, 2010
Messages
31,122
Likes
41,042
There is no corruption charges in Rafale deal yet, But if found we must have 300 LCA MK2 within 2022..

Then we may not need Rafale, Indian Gov is more with imports coz of corruptions..
 

Shirman

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 13, 2012
Messages
697
Likes
411
Country flag
There is no corruption charges in Rafale deal yet, But if found we must have 300 LCA MK2 within 2022..

Then we may not need Rafale, Indian Gov is more with imports coz of corruptions..
Hey you know what sir we will go Pakistani way if air force accepts this above proposal.....infact pakis will be so happy with this since they didn't got their J-10b/fc-20 mmrca killer as pakis force ably accept thunder because its the only thing they can currently afford......
 

Shirman

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 13, 2012
Messages
697
Likes
411
Country flag
Wikileaks: India's HAL hacks own Hawks?

Wikileaks: India's HAL hacks own Hawks? - The DEW Line

Privatise the whole thing and then see Indian genius blooming at its best :)
Speaking on the same topic somewhere i read it was because of the US ambassador Timothy Roemer Americans lost the deal........This guy was a loud mouth and he said something about Hal which really offended the Indian side.....later he resigned exactly the next day when f/a-18 and f-16in were not selected......
 

Mariner HK

Tihar Jail
Banned
Joined
Mar 12, 2013
Messages
491
Likes
189
Scrap Rafale, Viva Tejas!
Published April 11, 2013

SOURCE: ASIAN AGE



The credibility of WikiLeaks has never been questioned. The WikiLeaks documents that reveal Rajiv Gandhi's role as a commission agent for the Swedish defence major Saab-Scania peddling its Viggen combat aircraft to the Indian Air Force in the mid- to late-Seventies, only confirms the centrality of middlemen in defence deals.

It sets the context for the commission-mongering in the contracts for the German HDW submarine after Indira Gandhi's return to power, for the Swedish Bofors gun during Rajiv Gandhi's prime ministership, and in the subsequent high value deals approved by the Congress coalition government since 2005.

The IAF sought an aircraft that could fly low to attack targets deep within Pakistan, and Viggen was entered into the contest which was eventually won by the Anglo-French Jaguar, a deal pushed by defence minister Jagjivan Ram during the Janata Party interregnum for a hefty consideration, as was reported at the time by Surya magazine, edited by Maneka Gandhi. The Jaguar deal proved to be the death knell for the Mk-II version of the first indigenous combat aircraft — the HF-24 Marut, configured by the legendary German designer of Focke-Wulfe warplanes, Dr Kurt Tank, who had been brought in by Jawaharlal Nehru to seed an Indian aviation industry. Its aerodynamics proved excellent for low-level flying and, powered by a Bristol-Siddeley engine, it would have matched Jaguar's performance. The IAF leadership used the political cover provided by politicians inclined to rake in the moolah to kill the Marut Mk-II, thereby snuffing out the best chance for the Indian aviation industry to take wing.

Forty years on, the country is faced with a similar setting and choice — a Congress coalition government is in power and yet another aircraft deal, for the French Rafale medium range multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA), is on the anvil. The Manmohan Singh regime can approve the $22 billion contract facilitated by corrupt practices that will become known soon enough, and benefit France. Or, it can choose an indigenous option that can revive a comatose Indian aircraft industry.

France and Rafale-maker Dassault Avions have offered sufficient provocation. After agreeing with India during the Arms Trade Treaty negotiations that the supplier obligation had to be balanced with buyer responsibility, Dassault has refused to abide by the provisions in the Request for Proposal (RFP) that made it responsible for the quality of the 108 Rafale MMRCA produced under licence by the public sector Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. (HAL) designated in the RFP as prime contractor for the project. If Dassault had doubts it should have clarified this aspect before bidding for the deal, not after winning it, which prima facie suggests bad faith — enough cause to junk it.

A viable alternative is available in the Mark-II version of the Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) — its design fits the bill of an MMRCA and it is already undergoing wind tunnel testing. Not only is its 4.5-generation avionics suite common with that of the MK-I, but at its heart lies a ready-to-use AESA (Active Electronically Scanned Array) radar developed in collaboration with Israel that is comparable to that on the Rafale, except that the Thales RBE2 AESA radar for the Rafale is to be fully developed with the monies deposited by India!

With the larger air intake and the slight upward curvature of its wingtip, Mk-II Tejas, experts believe, has a better angle of attack (in excess of 28 degrees) with heavier payload than what Rafale can manage. The larger, three-metre longer, version of the Mk-I LCA, able to carry a bigger weapon load (five tons for Mk-II to Rafale's stated six tons, which will be lesser because the European ambient conditions it is built for don't obtain here), and has similar range, about 600 kms, and can be inducted into service in less time than the Rafale will take to roll out of HAL lines. Further, with a cranked-arrow delta wing with canards, the Mk-II will be superior to the Rafale in manoeuvrability. The basic Tejas Mk-I is already entering Limited Series Production (LSP) as prelude to full production. It will not be difficult to speedily establish a separate development and production line for Mk-II. In fact, HAL has shown confidence to reject European offers of help to set up the Tejas production infrastructure.
Picking home-grown products will also permit the rationalisation of IAF's force structure — ridding it of its inventory of aircraft so diverse it has created a logistics nightmare. The Mk-I Tejas, as planned, can fill the air defence role, and the Mk-II variant can more than adequately meet the medium-range interdiction and strike role of the MMRCA. Because Tejas Mk-I and Mk-II are locally built, there will be capacity for surge production to meet any spike in the demand for spares, freeing the IAF from the constraints imposed by foreign suppliers that have always affected its operations.

Local production based on hundreds of SMEs (Small Manufacturing Enterprises) is the backbone of any advanced aircraft industry. It is actually this issue and the unwillingness to fully transfer technology that is at the core of Dassault's differences with the Indian government. According to those in the know, Dassault's local partner, Reliance Aerospace, is supposed to have agreed to accept only limited technology transfer — even though total transfer of technology is paid for — and to source critical components and sub-assemblies for the "Indian-made Rafale" from French SMEs. Dassault, by these means, seeks to insert the French SMEs permanently into the Indian manufacturing loop, thus making it vulnerable to French policy whims.

The Congress government has the choice of accommodating Dassault, a position that will be heartily backed by the usually compromised and short-sighted IAF brass, and keep the French aviation industry in the clover or, by scrapping the deal and opting for the Tejas Mk-I for air defence and Mk-II as MMRCA, empower and grow the indigenous aviation industry and Indian SMEs.

With a record of unimaginable corruption, the least that can be expected of the Congress-led government is that, in its last year in office, it will do something good for the country for a change.

The writer is a professor at the Centre for Policy Research, New Delhi

No one can win wars fighting with foreign weapons
 

Latest Replies

Global Defence

New threads

Articles

Top