MMRCA and the Chinese Threat

[p2prada]

finaly one good reason to buy rafale,,.. thank you.. but dont you think we have more ground attack fighters ...Tejas MK1 MK2,upgraded Mirage 2000 ,Jaguar , future: AMCA (multi role and ll be used to take out enemy radar and missile instalations and for deep strike mission) ..Now we got sukoi 30mki as gaurdian of indian skies.. My only comcern is real.Two ffront war is real. do u think we can handle both chinese and pakistanis... which are getting decent air supiriorty fighters ?

Mirage-2000s, Jaguars will be retired by the time Rafale is in full force. Tejas Mk1 is a failure of an aircraft and Tejas isn't a ground attack aircraft. It is more of an escort + point defense.

These aren't ground attack aircraft. We only have Mig-27s, some versions of Mig-21s which are in the process of being replaced and Jaguars which will be replaced by AMCA. AMCA itself will be available in 2030.

For air superiority we will have MKIs/Super MKIs, LCA Mk2s and later FGFAs. By employing Rafale, the aircraft will be able to handle ground attack missions while being able to protect itself the same time. So, this takes the pressure off the primary air superiority aircraft form escort duties.

Anyway, by definition, all our planned future aircraft are air superiority aircraft with strike capability, be it MKI, LCA, Rafale, FGFA or AMCA.

And If u agree that ef has good air fighting capablities over rafale(which is true, Ef not yet have many land attack options but ef will get all multirole capablities by 2014 ...)

EF is known to have superior performance over Rafale. But in terms of electronics and maturity of systems, Rafale is better. EF has greater scope for upgrades as a larger and heavier platform, but there is no guarantee that the partners will fully fund the aircraft and buy enough numbers to make it feasible. No point making us pay for it either.

Anyway, EF is to get all multirole capabilities only in 2018. AESA radar in 2015.

 

[p2prada]

rafale aesa will have more range than it's pesa variant probably more than Typhoon pesa too, but Typhoon will re claim the position when it gets a aesa, because it can fit a larger diameter aesa.but this range doesn't matter much unless you are against a stealth jet, 4th gen jets can be tracked well before both jets weapon range or effective weapon range.so what matters is stay jam resistant, and have a good jammer and counter measure system etc.

Rafale's RBE-2 AA upgrade will bring it to the level of Bars phase I upgrade, which is not much compared to Su-35S.

I think France is promising a 200 Km tracking range against a 3m2 RCS for the IAF tender. So detection range should be around 275 Km.

Bars does 130 Km against such a target. Detection range is around 200 Km.

Bars Phase 1 will do 180 Km. Detection range should be between 250-275 Km.

Bars Phase 2 (AESA) or Zhuk AE for MKI should give something like 300 Km tracking range against a 3m2 target, maybe more. That's something like 500 Km detection, as advertised for PAKFA.

Also, RCS figures will change drastically with weapons load due to missile RCS, pylons etc. If F-22 and F-35 are expected to lose their RCS advantage with external missiles, it won't be any different with Rafale or EF.

 

[WMD]

the detection and tracking range of su-35 is impressive but the Chinese doesn't really hav any missile that can compete with meteor which will form rafale's BVRAAM arsenal. Chinese BVRAAMs do not hav ultra long range to support the range of su-35 and r not invulnerable to SPECTRA.

@Mariner HK
besides the reason pointed by p2prada, i might b able to provide another one for why we r buying rafale, that is AMCA.
with ToT we'll learn a lot abt manufacturing tech., AESA tech, SPECTRA, OSF and a whole lot of diff. things. this know how will ultimately find its way into AMCA.

this is an article i posted in the AMCA thread,
SP's Aviation - SP’s Exculsive
the article talks in detail abt what capabilities r planned for AMCA,
we lag in almost all the features published in this article. so the PMF(FGFA) & rafale should help us acquiring the required know how.

i am not saying that there is no shady dealings or graft or lobbying or back channel deal for rafale but all those seems unlikely, simply because its the best platform which was offered in the MMRCA competition which stands for medium multi-role combat aircraft

su-35 was not in the competition because its a heavy fighter like our own MKI and probably the last of the flanker variant.
as far as radar range or rcs is concerned the super sukhoi update will see to that. as posted by p2prada the super MKI upgrade will enable 300 Km tracking range against a 3m2 target which should give more than 350km detection range, similar if not same as that of Irbis-E

 

[Mariner HK]

the detection and tracking range of su-35 is impressive but the Chinese doesn't really hav any missile that can compete with meteor which will form rafale's BVRAAM arsenal. Chinese BVRAAMs do not hav ultra long range to support the range of su-35 and r not invulnerable to SPECTRA.

WMD sure rafale is born to be the best. But Su 35 born to beat the best.It agment with whole llot of new missile. They will be suppiled to chinese as well. They already have r77 with range 80~160 km fron high altitude. Respect ur info ... But let me point out some weapon onboard Su 35 Correct me if am wrong and in ur next post please compare these weapons with rafale's one by one So it will be helpfull for ppl concern like me ...

Weapons

The aircraft has 12 hardpoints for carrying external weapons and stores.

Each wing has four hardpoints – one on the wingtip and three under-wing stations. There are two hardpoints on the underside of the fuselage on the centreline and one under each engine.
Missiles:
The aircraft's air-to-air missiles can include:
- the Vympel R-27 (Nato designation AA-10 Alamo),
- the Vympel radar-guided medium-range R-77 (AA-12 Adder) and
- the Vympel short-range infrared-guided R-73E (AA-11 Archer).
"The Su-35 multirole fighter can be armed with a range of guided bombs."

The aircraft's air-to-surface missiles include :
- the Molniya Kh-29 (AS-14 Kedge) tactical missiles,
- the Kh-31P (AS-17 Krypton) anti-radiation missiles and
- the long-range Kh-58UShE (AS-11 Kilter) anti-radiation missiles.

The Su-35 anti-ship missiles include
- Kh-31A, the long-range
- Kh-59MK (AS-18 Kazoo),(The range achieved depends heavily on the launch altitude, thus the original Kh-58 has a range of 36 km from low level, 120 km from 10,000 m (32,800 ft), and 160 km from 15,000 m (49,200 ft)Like other Soviet missiles of the time, the Kh-58 could be fitted with a range of seeker heads designed to target specific air defence radars such as MIM-14 Nike-Hercules or MIM-104 Patriot. 160 km ? It can be used to attack our Ships with ease not to mention these are stealth 4++ fighters...
- the long-range Kalibr and
- the NPO Mashinostroenia heavy long-range Yakhont missile. The Yakhont has a maximum range of around 190 miles when cruising at high altitude. But it will travel at cruise-missile levels -- 15-50 feet -- during the final minutes of its flight before hitting its target It will be with CHINA

@Mariner HK
besides the reason pointed by p2prada, i might b able to provide another one for why we r buying rafale, that is AMCA.
with ToT we'll learn a lot abt manufacturing tech., AESA tech, SPECTRA, OSF and a whole lot of diff. things. this know how will ultimately find its way into AMCA.

this is an article i posted in the AMCA thread,
SP's Aviation - SP�s Exculsive
the article talks in detail abt what capabilities r planned for AMCA,
we lag in almost all the features published in this article. so the PMF(FGFA) & rafale should help us acquiring the required know how.

I am very sure that ToT of rafale will help us in big time. But so do other 4++. Super Sukoi is 4+ fighter not 4++. Any way

i am not saying that there is no shady dealings or graft or lobbying or back channel deal for rafale but all those seems unlikely, simply because its the best platform which was offered in the MMRCA competition which stands for medium multi-role combat aircraft

Yes but it got rejected by IAF in field trails.IAF was very intrested and impressed with Euro Fighter. Even at the last moment every one hoping for EF to be frank as u can see in fb and other forums and even in defence establishment. But it was a surprise.First rejected then brought in back and went on to win the deal.No wonder the guys who did copper dear scam are the same guys who did thisrafale deal.BJP also mentioned about mmrca deal that its also a scam. Robber know moves of other robers (in a lighter note.) Am really worried

su-35 was not in the competition because its a heavy fighter like our own MKI and probably the last of the flanker variant.

Yes that my point su 35 as bettr range , better weapons, better radar detection range (later upgradable or even while signing the deal ,to AESA radar), Fastest of all 2.24 mach ,Better air superiority fighter (easily be compared with f15 eagle even better than that.) Brand new high powered engine ,High service cealing and so on... It flies like a pro as its mark of flanker. Why we should buy rafale mmrca over Su 35 when its cost less than rafale.New su35 -60 mil$

I rather opt for 50 rafale naval varrient for Aircraft carrier and for Deep strike mission on two border.But Trusting rafale in A2A battle against this beast is diffrent story altogether. I do doubt .As we are flanker loving nation we trusted su 30 mki against f18 and f16 f 15E ...

as far as radar range or rcs is concerned the super sukhoi update will see to that. as posted by p2prada the super MKI upgrade will enable 300 Km tracking range against a 3m2 target which should give more than 350km detection range, similar if not same as that of Irbis-E

Yes super sukoi wont have a chance to survive against its big daddy su 35 in all aspect. If u give both these fighters to a equally tallented pilots sure Su 35 take a lead in moral,theoritically,practically as well.. Expecting more deep info into raf vs su 35 vs ef

 

[Agnostic_Indian]

The R-77 can be used by most of the
Russian Air force fighter aircraft,
since many of their aircraft, primarily
MiG-29 , Su-27 and MiG-31 , were
upgraded recently. The same is true
for the PLAAF of China, who use the
Su-27 as well as a copy, the J-11 .
The newer Su-30MKK has a N001
(Su-27 radar) with a digital bypass
channel incorporating a mode allowing
it to use R-77s. Newer Russian
aircraft from the MiG-29S (N019M
radar) onward are not restricted in this
regard.
There are other variants under
development. One has an upgraded
motor to boost range at high altitudes
to as much as 120–160 km; it is
known as the R-77RVV-AE-PD.


AA-12 AMRAAMski / R-77 RVV FAMILY | Russian Military Analysis

 

[Mariner HK]

The R-77 can be used by most of the
Russian Air force fighter aircraft,
since many of their aircraft, primarily
MiG-29 , Su-27 and MiG-31 , were
upgraded recently. The same is true
for the PLAAF of China, who use the
Su-27 as well as a copy, the J-11 .
The newer Su-30MKK has a N001
(Su-27 radar) with a digital bypass
channel incorporating a mode allowing
it to use R-77s. Newer Russian
aircraft from the MiG-29S (N019M
radar) onward are not restricted in this
regard.
There are other variants under
development. One has an upgraded
motor to boost range at high altitudes
to as much as 120–160 km; it is
known as the R-77RVV-AE-PD.


AA-12 AMRAAMski / R-77 RVV FAMILY | Russian Military Analysis

thats the point ... su 35 will have first target lock over rafale and missile homing rafale even before rafale knew su 35 was against them..With Passive array radar it can lock rafales rcs .1 m^2 at 140 km and things to note is that when rafale is fully armed its rcs is very high than .5 m^2 even 1.2 m^2 or more.(dont mistake me on rcs am provided for fully armed rafale.but it will be higher than its uniq feature of rcs .1~ .3 m^2) . So su35 will detect rafale at 280 km and prepare for kill at 160 km.Wr as rafale need to come to 80~100 km to fire its great meteor missile.. thou it can detect su 35 at 140 km with its aesa radar.

 

[Agnostic_Indian]

thats the point ... su 35 will have first target lock over rafale and missile homing rafale even before rafale knew su 35 was against them..With Passive array radar it can lock rafales rcs .1 m^2 at 140 km and things to note is that when rafale is fully armed its rcs is very high than .5 m^2 even 1.2 m^2 or more.(dont mistake me on rcs am provided for fully armed rafale.but it will be higher than its uniq feature of rcs .1~ .3 m^2) . So su35 will detect rafale at 280 km and prepare for kill at 160 km.Wr as rafale need to come to 80~100 km to fire its great meteor missile.. thou it can detect su 35 at 140 km with its aesa radar.

when loaded the rcs figures multiple many folds.. you can easily add around 3m^2 to 5m^2 to each fighters existing clean rcs.(the figure I stated is just my assumption, nobody knows exact figures). Now if you look, it doesn't matter which radar has more range because both of them will be able to track each other well beyond the range of their bvr weapons.I am not sure which weapon SU35 has now with active homing but it is not the one you stated. one more thing is if you take a 100km range bvr missile, it's NEZ will be below 60km (head on range, tail chase is again half of that )range because missiles burn out quickly, it gives more time for enemy to take counter measures etc.
another thing is rafale jammer can degrade the performance of su35 pesa radar but su35 can't do much to the rafale aesa.
it is a tough comparison, while above said advantages and manx others are with rafale su35 got speed, altitude, radar range, t/w ratio etc as it's advantages. Imo rafale should be able to shoot down su35 at least 60% -70% of the time.

 

[Mariner HK]

when loaded the rcs figures multiple many folds.. you can easily add around 3m^2 to 5m^2 to each fighters existing clean rcs.(the figure I stated is just my assumption, nobody knows exact figures). Now if you look, it doesn't matter which radar has more range because both of them will be able to track each other well beyond the range of their bvr weapons.

Yes but radar with higher range detect first its comonsense. And Pesa radar of su 35 has range upto 425 km.. for 5 rcs. If rafale had rcs of 5m^2 as u mentioned fully armed then what made u to belive rafale as upper hand over 35s ? Max Detection for 5 sqm RCS - 426 kmSu-35S has N-035 IRBIS-E. The most powerful Fighter Plane mounted X Band radar in the world. Specs are as follows.
Transmitter peak power - 20kw
Transmitter average power - 5kw
Can Track - 30 Targets
Can Simultaneously Engage - 8 Targets

I am not sure which weapon SU35 has now with active homing but it is not the one you stated.

? WHy its from official site of sukoi itself.If u still dont belive tat what ll i do ?

one more thing is if you take a 100km range bvr missile, it's NEZ will be below 60km (head on range, tail chase is again half of that )range because missiles burn out quickly, it gives more time for enemy to take counter measures etc.

Again u should know wat su 35 carries.. Let me put in simple manner layman terms. missile had small radar in it with range of 80~160 km. Lets put all info i mentioned together .5m^2 rcs ll be detected at 425km away by N-035 IRBIS-E at 18,000 m high the angle away from radar detection range of rafale and r77 missile will be fired at 160 km at 4.5 mach speed. Even both rafale and su 35 fired their missile at 100 km at the same time meteor as speed of 4 mach and r 77 as speed of 4.5 MACH...

another thing is rafale jammer can degrade the performance of su35 pesa radar but su35 can't do much to the rafale aesa.
it is a tough comparison,

Its actually wrong again .Do u have stas to prove ur clain ? and ef's jamer is better and powerfull than rafales. And su 35 is not 4+ gen fighter as u think.Its new ew suit is more poerfull than 4+ gen fighters. [video=youtube_share;8WVQkzQCaCw]http://youtu.be/8WVQkzQCaCw[/video] please watch this video its official video and watch out for typoon using it jamer and see wat happend after fec sec.Various encounters of the EF and su-35 the EFs are with and without AWACS support in some cases. This video Simplifies and shows the superiorty of the su-35 against the Eurofighter

while above said advantages and manx others are with rafale su35 got speed, altitude, radar range, t/w ratio etc as it's advantages. Imo rafale should be able to shoot down su35 at least 60% -70% of the time.

how in the world ew suit ,SPECTRA and meteor missile can out match su 35's speed, range ,service cealing , play load , 4++ gen features ? I dont get it please explain . How rafale will be able to shoot down Su 35 at least 60-70% wat made u to belive this please show some real spec and explain them like i did . Dont jsut say it kill this and do that without specs to back ur claim as spec say very diffrent things and opposite to ur claims... . Tell are explain with som reason thank you .

 

[Agnostic_Indian]

@p2prada @Mariner HK please post a link which shows which missiles is OPERATIONAL on su35. @MHK I will replay you later for your post.as long as I know r77m with 160 km range is not yet operational and not much details about it's development maturity.

 

[Mariner HK]

@p2prada @Mariner HK please post a link which shows which missiles is OPERATIONAL on su35. @MHK I will replay you later for your post.as long as I know r77m with 160 km range is not yet operational and not much details about it's development maturity.

dude its an 1980s model and its operational from then itself ... now its upgraded with new small radar inside the missile ...it will have its own navi too.. even we have this missile in our su 30 mkis chinese with their su 30 mkk

 

[Agnostic_Indian]

dude its an 1980s model and its operational from then itself ... now its upgraded with new small radar inside the missile ...it will have its own navi too.. even we have this missile in our su 30 mkis chinese with their su 30 mkk

once again post a link which says Russia now operates the 160km range(India doesn't have it for sure ) active radar guided missile, because the link which I posted says it is under development, the ramjet version of r77.

 

[Mariner HK]

@p2prada @Mariner HK please post a link which shows which missiles is OPERATIONAL on su35. @MHK I will replay you later for your post.as long as I know r77m with 160 km range is not yet operational and not much details about it's development maturity.

One has an upgraded motor to boost range at high altitudes to as much as 120–160 km; it is known as the R-77RVV-AE-PD. The 'PD' stands for Povyshenoy Dalnosti, which in Russian means Improved Range. This variant has been test-fired and uses a solid-fuel ramjet engine. Its range puts it in the long-range class and is equivalent in range to the AIM-54 Phoenix. In another version of the R-77, a terminal infra-red homing seeker is offered. This is in line with the Russian practice of attacking targets by firing pairs of missiles with different homing systems. This complicates end-game defensive actions for the target aircraft, as it needs to successfully defeat two homing systems.

The radar-guided R-77 has been sold widely, with China and India placing significant orders for the weapon, as was the case for the R-73. The baseline R-77 was designed in the 1980s, with development complete by around 1994. India was the first export customer for the export variant, known as the RVV-AE, with the final batch delivered in 2002

Further Developments

Tactical Missile Corp., also known as TRV, unveiled its so-called RVV-SD and RVV-MD missiles for the first time at the Moscow air show in August 2009. The RVV-SD is an improved version of the R-77 (AA-12 Adder), while the RVV-MD is a variant of the R-73 (AA-11 Archer)

In service 1994 (R-77)
Production history
Manufacturer Vympel
Specifications
Weight 175 kg (R-77), 226 kg (R-77M1)
Length 3.6 m (R-77)
Diameter 200 mm

Warhead 22 kg [1] HE, fragmenting
Detonation
mechanism laser proximity fuze

Engine Solid fuel rocket motor (R-77), air-breathing ramjet (R-77M1)
Wingspan 350 mm
Operational
range Strongly varying according to source:
R-77:40 km (21.6 nm)[1] - 50 km (27 nm)[2] - 80 km (43.2 nm)[3]
R-77M1:60 km (32.4 nm)[1] - 80 km (43.2 nm)[4] - 160 km (86 nm)[3]
Flight altitude 5 m-25 km (16.5-82,000 ft)
Speed Mach 4.5 (R-77)
Guidance
system Inertial with mid-course update and terminal active radar homing
Launch
platform Mikoyan MiG-21-93/Lance/Bison, Mikoyan MiG-29, Mikoyan MiG-31, Mikoyan MiG-35, Sukhoi Su-27SM, Sukhoi Su-30, Sukhoi Su-34, Sukhoi Su-35, Sukhoi Su-37, Sukhoi Su-47, Yakovlev Yak-141, J-10B
Future Platforms:
Sukhoi PAK FA

mkk launching r77

 

[Shirman]

wanna post link rellevant to topic regarding the ramjet version of r77. already discussed between me @Austin and @p2prada........in su-30mki section.........
http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/indian-air-force/43829-sukhoi-su-30mki-3.html please check..............

 

[Agnostic_Indian]

wanna post link rellevant to topic regarding the ramjet version of r77. already discussed between me @Austin and @p2prada........in su-30mki section.........
http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/indian-air-force/43829-sukhoi-su-30mki-3.html please check..............

this is what he posted.


[There are two version of the new R-77. One is the Izdeliye 180 which is also called R-77M and is meant for the VVS. The second is the Izdeliye 170-1 or the RVV-SD and is meant for export (to India and others).]
So the export version is RVV SD. now what is it's range ?what I am getting is 110 km.


Launch Range:
- max, at the front hemisphere, km �
up to 110
- min, at the aft hemisphere, km �
0.3
Target altitude, km - 0,02 - 25
Launch weight, kg � not more than
190
Missile dimensions, m
- length � 3.71
- diameter � 0.2
- wing span � 0.42
- fin span � 0.68


AA-12 AMRAAMski / R-77 RVV FAMILY | Russian Military Analysis

 

[Mariner HK]

this is what he posted.


[There are two version of the new R-77. One is the Izdeliye 180 which is also called R-77M and is meant for the VVS. The second is the Izdeliye 170-1 or the RVV-SD and is meant for export (to India and others).]
So the export version is RVV SD. now what is it's range ?what I am getting is 110 km.


Launch Range:
- max, at the front hemisphere, km �
up to 110
- min, at the aft hemisphere, km �
0.3
Target altitude, km - 0,02 - 25
Launch weight, kg � not more than
190
Missile dimensions, m
- length � 3.71
- diameter � 0.2
- wing span � 0.42
- fin span � 0.68


AA-12 AMRAAMski / R-77 RVV FAMILY | Russian Military Analysis

its 80~160km when fired from high alttitude ...Su 30 mki super sukoi su 35 pak fa will have this missile ...

range Strongly varying according to source:
R-77:40 km (21.6 nm)[1] - 50 km (27 nm)[2] - 80 km (43.2 nm)
R-77M1:60 km - 80 km - 160 km (at different altitudes ) How can one explain more than this... I showed u with graphics fron australian media ,wikipedia stats and i personally explained like many times now.U still dont want to belive.u wont beliven even Mr.Sukoi comes alive from his cementry and told u in person . Mark my words u wont belive him and ask for www address

 

[Agnostic_Indian]

its 80~160km when fired from high alttitude ...Su 30 mki super sukoi su 35 pak fa will have this missile ...

not possible, missile ranges are often given on air to air optimum conditions range. post a link to your claim.

 

[Mariner HK]

not possible, missile ranges are often given on air to air optimum conditions range. post a link to your claim.

HAHAHA ! dude... wat is not possible..These scientist researchers spent lots of money and time in to this missile to optain this range and fire power u Simply sitting here and cooly commenting that its not possible ? ...

missile are tested and made to suit these condition for godsake ..

 

[Agnostic_Indian]

HAHAHA ! dude... wat is not possible..These scientist researchers spent lots of money and time in to this missile to optain this range and fire power u Simply sitting here and cooly commenting that its not possible ? ...

missile are tested and made to suit these condition for godsake ..

I didn't ask for smiles, and other things. post a link to your claim that it(RVV SD Version )can have 160km range when fired from high altitude.

 

[natarajan]

why we didt go for su35

 

[Mariner HK]

I didn't ask for smiles, and other things. post a link to your claim that it(RVV SD Version )can have 160km range when fired from high altitude.

dude just google it... try wikipedia.... U need to put some effort ...also if u wanna know about some thing thank you