LCA TEJAS MK1 & MK1A: News and Discussion

[lcafanboy]

Tejas goes international...

 

[lcafanboy]

Guys use this thread to discuss all things related to LCA Tejas Mk1 & Mk1A..

 

[Shakti Malik]

I have few questions on export of Tejas to friendly countries.
1. Will HAL have to get approval from US to export Tejas to friendly countries ? Or HAL already has some agreement of this with US which allows it with some terms & conditions ?
2. Since Tejas will create some competition in Fighter Aircraft market (for F16 ??). So it makes little sense for US to allow its export ?
2. Will US change same engine price for export version as negotiated for our own use ?
3. How much is engine cost as compared to full aircraft cost ?

Thanks

 

[Chinmoy]

I have few questions on export of Tejas to friendly countries.
1. Will HAL have to get approval from US to export Tejas to friendly countries ? Or HAL already has some agreement of this with US which allows it with some terms & conditions ?
2. Since Tejas will create some competition in Fighter Aircraft market (for F16 ??). So it makes little sense for US to allow its export ?
2. Will US change same engine price for export version as negotiated for our own use ?
3. How much is engine cost as compared to full aircraft cost ?

Thanks

1- Tejas is not a JV like JF-17 or license built like MKI. HAL has all the rights to export it with consent of GoI.
2- Tejas is a LCA and F-16 is an MCA. No comparison among both so no competition.
3- Tejas is using India specific GE-404. This is already an export variant, so no changes here.
4- It comes to around 20% of the base price.

 

[cannonfodder]

1- Tejas is not a JV like JF-17 or license built like MKI. HAL has all the rights to export it with consent of GoI.
2- Tejas is a LCA and F-16 is an MCA. No comparison among both so no competition.
3- Tejas is using India specific GE-404. This is already an export variant, so no changes here.
4- It comes to around 20% of the base price.

Chinmoy ji, I have question here. True that LCA is not JV but for export we still need to check US laws because of engine dependency. It is not like GE won't like additional orders but isn't there anything in CATSAA or whatever they call it?

I remember reading somewhere this was precisely the reason kaveri is important to us. If Kaveri is successful and fit for LCA, we can export LCA with lesser dependence on US laws etc.

 

[no smoking]

1- Tejas is not a JV like JF-17 or license built like MKI. HAL has all the rights to export it with consent of GoI

No, for any foreign supplied system installed on your plane is subject to the export permission of foreign government. Generally, in the original supplying contract, there is term to indicate whether this system is allowed to be exported to 3rd country with the plane. But even being fully authorized, the supplier can still stop supplying, further service in future if their government got problem with the 3rd country.

 

[Enquirer]

1- Tejas is not a JV like JF-17 or license built like MKI. HAL has all the rights to export it with consent of GoI.
2- Tejas is a LCA and F-16 is an MCA. No comparison among both so no competition.
3- Tejas is using India specific GE-404. This is already an export variant, so no changes here.
4- It comes to around 20% of the base price.

I wasn't interested in answering Susti Malik's questions, hoping someone else will provide the right info! But then you pop in and disseminate your perversion of facts and logic!!
1.) GE/USA will need to give country specific permission to HAL that it will export to. Turbofan engines are not like paper clips that can be easily passed on from one hand to another!!
2.) US is not allowed to favor Lockheed Martin and hurt GE's chances! If Susti Malik's logic were to be taken at face value then US should not have allowed export of GE engines to India either (as the resulting product, Tejas, could be deemed as competition!)
3.) The price is mostly set tranche by tranche (or based on a master agreement for some max number of engines). If Malaysia deal requires another 30 engines to be imported, then a new agreement will mostly need to be signed. The price might hover around the old price - but there are no guarantees (HAL negotiated the price with GE several years ago)!
4.) It's a ridiculous question to ask what 'percentage' of the aircraft cost would be the price of engine! Tejas price can vary from $25 million to $65 million with the exact same engine on it! The price of the GE 404 hovers somewhere around $5 to $6 million PERIOD

 

[Chinmoy]

Chinmoy ji, I have question here. True that LCA is not JV but for export we still need to check US laws because of engine dependency. It is not like GE won't like additional orders but isn't there anything in CATSAA or whatever they call it?

I remember reading somewhere this was precisely the reason kaveri is important to us. If Kaveri is successful and fit for LCA, we can export LCA with lesser dependence on US laws etc.

First of all, we are buying the engine off the shelf from GE. There is no clause like ToT or design aspect development in its purchase. Although there is law on its sale prohibition directly, but these rules don't apply to a product where it is a component. It is just like selling a mobile phone with GPS receiver. India would deal in the platform (!) not in the component.

CAATSA prevents you from buying equipment from Russia, but it don't prevent you from selling US equipment to other countries.

Kaveri is important to us because of the technology. Dependence on other nation for any technology is an Achilles Heel, especially for defence of any country.

 

[Chinmoy]

No, for any foreign supplied system installed on your plane is subject to the export permission of foreign government. Generally, in the original supplying contract, there is term to indicate whether this system is allowed to be exported to 3rd country with the plane. But even being fully authorized, the supplier can still stop supplying, further service in future if their government got problem with the 3rd country.

Ofcourse, but as of now there is no such clause that HAL can't use GE engine on any export variant of Tejas. Political dynamics could change, but right now there is no such tension between Malaysia and US.

So as of now Lizar could wag its tail and you could go to sleep.

 

[no smoking]

Ofcourse, but as of now there is no such clause that HAL can't use GE engine on any export variant of Tejas.

Typical ignorance, for major weapon systems and key sub-systems, there is always detailed term indicating the usage. In general, if you want to export it to 3rd country, you will need a clause to specially address it. So, the question you should ask is: if there is such a clause that HAL use export engine on any export variant of Tejas.

Political dynamics could change, but right now there is no such tension between Malaysia and US.

Well, it is not about political dynamics only, but also economic cost. When you export this to Malaysia, it means you will need American to provide service to those engine of Malaysia air force. Then it is a new service contract need a new round of negotiation.

So as of now Lizar could wag its tail and you could go to sleep.

Sounds like someone can't hear different idea.

 

[Chinmoy]

Typical ignorance, for major weapon systems and key sub-systems, there is always detailed term indicating the usage. In general, if you want to export it to 3rd country, you will need a clause to specially address it. So, the question you should ask is: if there is such a clause that HAL use export engine on any export variant of Tejas.




Well, it is not about political dynamics only, but also economic cost. When you export this to Malaysia, it means you will need American to provide service to those engine of Malaysia air force. Then it is a new service contract need a new round of negotiation.


Sounds like someone can't hear different idea.

As of now there is no such clause in any of the component supplied for Tejas where it has been indicated or stated that they can't be used in any export variant. If there is any point it out and I would retract my views.

Moreover we are talking in context of sale to Malaysia, not to NoKo or Iran.

If you can't point this simple facts, you are free to live in your nutshell.

 

[Enquirer]

As of now there is no such clause in any of the component supplied for Tejas where it has been indicated or stated that they can't be used in any export variant. If there is any point it out and I would retract my views.

Moreover we are talking in context of sale to Malaysia, not to NoKo or Iran.

If you can't point this simple facts, you are free to live in your nutshell.

If there's no such clause (not sure how you're so confident about it), then what'll stop India from selling Tejas (with GE engines) to Iran or North Korea? How can US at that time swoop in to object?

Do you even think before you type?

No country supplies weapon components to another country without a clear 'end use agreement'. No one is claiming that US will object to the sale, but just that US will have a say!

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

1- Tejas is not a JV like JF-17 or license built like MKI. HAL has all the rights to export it with consent of GoI.
2- Tejas is a LCA and F-16 is an MCA. No comparison among both so no competition.
3- Tejas is using India specific GE-404. This is already an export variant, so no changes here.
4- It comes to around 20% of the base price.

Tejas export can end up like ATAK helicopters export from Turkey to Pakistan where USA refused to supply engines. How can you arbitrarily claim that India will be able to export to Malaysia with just consent of GoI? India needs engine made by USA and hence USA's consent. @gpawar , @no smoking , @Enquirer are all correct in pointing this out. It may be that USA will allow for exports of LCA to Malaysia depending on relationship with India and Malaysia but that is not guaranteed as can be seen in case of ATAK helicopters.

Also, I wonder how did you claim that 20% of Tejas cost is from engines. The cost of engines is $4-5 million while cost of F414 is $6 million. How did you convert it to percentage format?

 

[porky_kicker]

How many of you read the tender documents RFI / RFQ etc etc issued by HAL or DRDO etc ?

here is a sample, read it carefully

Everything boils down to the agreements signed with the OEM. Nobody is foolish enough to sign agreements without guaranteeing the safeguard of their interests including future ones.

US government can theoretically over rule them even at the cost of financial penalties etc but big question will they be willing to accept the costs in the short or long run ?

Say hypothetically India cuts down on the number of civilian aircrafts from Boeing as a sign of displeasure and replaces them with airbus , Will US rethink then ? Risk billions of dollars for a measly few hundred millions ?

Etc etc lots of ways are there.

The Chinese have used the same technique ie Lure of continued access to their markets to browbeat others to overlook their thievery copying and other illegal activities associated with technology etc very successfully , and hey unlike chinese here we are doing legit work , respecting IPR.

I guess this should pretty much stop the discussion.

 

[Chinmoy]

How many of you read the tender documents RFI / RFQ etc etc issued by HAL or DRDO etc ?

here is a sample, read it carefully

View attachment 30955

Everything boils down to the agreements signed with the OEM. Nobody is foolish enough to sign agreements without guaranteeing the safeguard of their interests including future ones.

US government can theoretically over rule them even at the cost of financial penalties etc but big question will they be willing to accept the costs in the long run ?

Say hypothetically India cuts down on the number of civilian aircrafts from Boeing as a sign of displeasure and replaces they will airbus Will US rethink then ?

Etc etc lots of ways are there.

The Chinese have used the same technique ie Lure of continued access to their markets to browbeat others to overlook their thievery copying and other illegal activities associated with technology etc very successfully , and here we are doing legit work.

I guess this should pretty much stop the discussion

Some people just jump the gun and assume things.

It is also a mere assumption that Malaysia is interested in Tejas purchase.

USA could arm twist India, but only when their interest gets hurt. As long as LCA is not a threat to any of their fighters, they would not meddle. Unless India becomes a arm supplier to any country which has issue with US, they would not meddle.

 

[porky_kicker]

Some people just jump the gun and assume things.

It is also a mere assumption that Malaysia is interested in Tejas purchase.

Click bait by livefist ................

 

[porky_kicker]

Some people just jump the gun and assume things.

It is also a mere assumption that Malaysia is interested in Tejas purchase.

USA could arm twist India, but only when their interest gets hurt. As long as LCA is not a threat to any of their fighters, they would not meddle. Unless India becomes a arm supplier to any country which has issue with US, they would not meddle.

They will not meddle
The stakes are too high

Look at history
Everytime US blocks technology to India
It backfires on them

Supercomputers
Cryogenic engines
Etc

So let them block the engines , I say they should block the engines, we need the challenge :biggrin2:

 

[Enquirer]

How many of you read the tender documents RFI / RFQ etc etc issued by HAL or DRDO etc ?

here is a sample, read it carefully

View attachment 30955

Everything boils down to the agreements signed with the OEM. Nobody is foolish enough to sign agreements without guaranteeing the safeguard of their interests including future ones.

US government can theoretically over rule them even at the cost of financial penalties etc but big question will they be willing to accept the costs in the short or long run ?

Say hypothetically India cuts down on the number of civilian aircrafts from Boeing as a sign of displeasure and replaces them with airbus , Will US rethink then ? Risk billions of dollars for a measly few hundred millions ?

Etc etc lots of ways are there.

The Chinese have used the same technique ie Lure of continued access to their markets to browbeat others to overlook their thievery copying and other illegal activities associated with technology etc very successfully , and hey unlike chinese here we are doing legit work , respecting IPR.

I guess this should pretty much stop the discussion.

If you have read the document you posted, please do tell how it proves anything that you & Chinmoy are arguing??

The RFQ is for TOT/JointDevelopment! The exclusive right to sell LCA Mk1a worldwide with the radar applies only to the jointly developed radar (HAL is buying the IPR here).

Further, this is just an aspirational RFQ - it's not the actual deal!! The vendor normally comes back with an outright sale price, price for TOT etc. It's a well known fact that for GE 404/414, there's no TOT to India/HAL!

Also, if you actually read the posts by members who were trying to put some sense into Chinmoy:
No one is saying that US would object to the sale, everyone is opposing Chinmoy's declaration that HAL doesn't need US permission!

 

[porky_kicker]

If you have read the document you posted, please do tell how it proves anything that you & Chinmoy are arguing??

The RFQ is for TOT/JointDevelopment! The exclusive right to sell LCA Mk1a worldwide with the radar applies only to the jointly developed radar (HAL is buying the IPR here).

Further, this is just an aspirational RFQ - it's not the actual deal!! The vendor normally comes back with an outright sale price, price for TOT etc. It's a well known fact that for GE 404/414, there's no TOT to India/HAL!

Also, if you actually read the posts by members who were trying to put some sense into Chinmoy:
No one is saying that US would object to the sale, everyone is opposing Chinmoy's declaration that HAL doesn't need US permission!

Are bhai why are you reading between the lines

I posted the pic to give a idea on the clauses inserted by the client to safeguard their interests and not as a proof wrt the the engine deal.

I wrote this in my post

Everything boils down to the agreements signed with the OEM. Nobody is foolish enough to sign agreements without guaranteeing the safeguard of their interests including future ones.

What does it mean
It means neither me nor you nor anybody except those who have seen the actual agreement between the OEM and the client can comment on the same with definite conviction. Everything boil down to the wordings / clauses etc included in the agreement between the 2 parties.

The engine supplied to India is a India specific varient mandated and funded by India , and tell me a reason why India will not insert necessary clauses to protect her investments.

What I am saying is, without seeing the original agreement nobody is in a position to comment on the same.

And if India was smart enough to include clauses in the agreement for 3rd party sale and support for the same by the OEM , and the US government green lighted the agreement during the signing of the same ( every military agreement needs prior US government approval ) then it will be honoured provided it does not involve countries on the list of countries subject to US embargo etc.

And bro I am out of the discussion
AFAIC you are right , I am right , everybody is right. Problem solved :biggrin2:

 

[cannonfodder]

This is most likely fishing expedition by Malaysia and click bait for live fist. Argument from both sides have some valid points; so lets move on.