Latest Indian anti tank weapons and their effect on our weapons

[Armand2REP]

MILAN 2 have warhed caliber 115mm there is no super duper miracle technology here. In erly 90s penetration was equal to 6 warhed diameter, now is close to 6.5.

115x6 = 690mm
115x 6.5 = 750mm

In case of the T-80UD turret MILAN warhed will be on the border of efactivness for 0. turret degree. And HEAT warhed must have some "behind armour effect".


btw: Some ERA (like rusian Relikt) are immune to the proecursor (or other way -they are double -reaction, so precursor in not enought).

MILAN 2T main charge has 880mm penetration once it has incinerated the ERA. T-80 is dead unless ERA is hit dead centre which almost never happens.

 

[militarysta]

MILAN 2T main charge has 880mm penetration .

Overestimated -the same as BASIC TOW, TOW-2A, ITW, etc. Penetration valyes where overestimated. In case SC warhed relatio between SC diameter and penetration is unable to overcome. And here is no mirracle.

 

[Armand2REP]

Overestimated -the same as BASIC TOW, TOW-2A, ITW, etc. Penetration valyes where overestimated. In case SC warhed relatio between SC diameter and penetration is unable to overcome. And here is no mirracle.

Russian ERA values overestimated, value lies at aim point and it won't be dead centre 95% of the time. Penetration values are tested and accurate. Nothing India faces can't be destroyed by MILAN 2T.

 

[AVERAGE INDIAN]

we need not really worry about Pakistan's armored. Most of it is T55s and T59s. Only modern tanks in their inventory are 300 T80UD, unspecified number of Chinese T88 and now Al Khalid which they cannot field a substantial number for next few years. Even then India would have a numerical superiority. Also with phasing out Vijayantas and replacing them with T90s and upgraded T72s, we would be qualitatively at par if not better. T72s can be upgraded into T90s. Finally no matter how strong a tank column, is not effective without complementary air cover. This has been demonstrated over and over again. From Longewala to Gulf war to name the few. Pakistan's strategists conspicuously seem to have been ignoring this fact. India would have complete air superiority in any future conflict with Pakistan.

 

[W.G.Ewald]

 

[arnabmit]

T72s can be upgraded into T90s.

Is this even possible???

 

[collegeboy16]

Russian ERA values overestimated, value lies at aim point and it won't be dead centre 95% of the time. Penetration values are tested and accurate. Nothing India faces can't be destroyed by MILAN 2T.

russian export era is overestimated, the original is really that good. Milan 2T is good, though T-80UD would shrug off a hit.

 

[AVERAGE INDIAN]

Is this even possible???

The T-90 (Ob.188) MBT is the most modern tank currently in service with the Russian Army. It is a direct descendant of the T-72 MBT (in fact, a renaming of T-72BU) although every single system including the main gun has received a major upgrade.

T-90 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/row/t-90.htm


The T-90 MBT uses a well proven chassis of the T-72 and turret with all weapon systems of the T-80U.

http://www.military-today.com/tanks/t90.htm


it can be done

All T-72's, were/are powered by a V-84 diesel engine which generates 840 hp, but on the BU an improved engine generating the same horse power but designated the V-84MS was used as well as torsion bar suspension. The T-72BU prototype entered production in limited numbers in 1993 under the designation T-90.

some more info
http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/...e-tanks-armour-technology-408.html#post773380

The modernized T-72 now known as the T-90

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com...nother-1000-t90s-tanks-by-2020-updated-02697/

Initially thought by Western observers to be an entirely new design, the production model is in fact based on the T-72BM, with some added features from the T-80 series. The T-90 features a new generation of armor on its hull and turret. Two variants, the T-90S and T-90E, have been identified as possible export models. Plans called for all earlier models to be replaced with T-90s by the end of 1997, subject to funding availability. By mid-1996 some 107 T-90s had gone into service in the Far Eastern Military District.

http://www.fprado.com/armorsite/T-90S.htm

 

[Armand2REP]

russian export era is overestimated, the original is really that good. Milan 2T is good, though T-80UD would shrug off a hit.

Nah, it can't survive 880mm hull penetration. The streets of Grozny were full of burning T-80Us firing simple RPGs.

 

[militarysta]

. The streets of Grozny were full of burning T-80Us firing simple RPGs.

Show me one single photo whit burn in Grozny T-80U.
There where burned T-80B and BW but losses both type "T-80" was smaller then T-72BW.
You completly misunderstand problem:
pakistani T-80UD are menufactured from Ukraina and Charkiv factory. Those tank is Ob.478BE whit new welded turret and completly diffrent turret and hull "special armour".
T-80B and BW is from diffrent factory (Leningrad) and it's Ob.219 whit complelty diffrent (whorse) armour and turret then Charkiv Ob.478BE...

Nah, it can't survive 880mm hull penetration

Forstly MILAN have mucht smalle rpenetration, second - there is ERA and precursor in ATGM not alway guaranteed proper ERA ignit, second think about hull in pakistanie T-80UD hull composition:
(for 0. degree)
66mm RHA
gap for ERA on hull
135mm RHA
80mm ceramics
135mm HHS
gap whit distanser
80mm ceramics
135mm RHA.

Protection is at least:
630-640mm vs APFSDS without ERA
750mm vs HEAT without ERA

So front hull whit MILAN-2T give nothing in that case.


Second:

Penetration values are tested and accurate.

No, they are not. There is no "wunderwaffe" or mirracle in case copper SC warhed (HEAT) peentration is well known and I had DOZENS pdf from balistic symposium and PHDs in this thema. Not, it's not possible to achive from 115mm dimatere SC warhed penetration equal to circa 800mm RHA.
It's really simple in thic case.
Given in wikipedia and "army recognition" or other pages values are worth shit - it's the same bullshit as chineese data on sinodefense.
Wana example?
Look - BASIC TOW and ITOW:

Original armor penetration estimates were 600 mm for BGM-71A/B and 700–800 mm for BGM-71C.

And sucht values was given in most sources, when sudently now declassified CIA study become "open", and the true penetration values against a vertical target are much lower:


See?

And here is the same story whit MILAN, MILAN-2T, etc.
MILAN 2 have warhed caliber 115mm . In erly 90s penetration was equal to 6 warhed diameter, now is close to 6.5.

115x6 = 690mm
115x 6.5 = 750mm
End of story here. Any walue above this is bullshit and fairy tails.

 

[militarysta]

More in ERA thema:

(There wher other armour angle vs PzF-3 too)

See?
PzF-3 have precursor:.

Like Milan for example.

 

[militarysta]

BTW:

The streets of Grozny were full of .

During first Chechenia war Russian Army lost 195 tanks, when catastrophic (total loss) was 65 tanks. From this number T-80B/BW was in 23 cases.
Source:
Tanki w bojach za Groznyj (1) - Frontowaja Illustracjia 9/2007 Sindar
Tanki w bojach za Groznyj (2) - Frontowaja Illustracjia 1/2008 Sindar

 

[Armand2REP]

Show me one single photo whit burn in Grozny T-80

Forstly MILAN have mucht smalle rpenetration, second - there is ERA and precursor in ATGM not alway guaranteed proper ERA ignit, second think about hull in pakistanie T-80UD hull composition:
(for 0. degree)
66mm RHA
gap for ERA on hull
135mm RHA
80mm ceramics
135mm HHS
gap whit distanser
80mm ceramics
135mm RHA.

Protection is at least:
630-640mm vs APFSDS without ERA
750mm vs HEAT without ERA

So front hull whit MILAN-2T give nothing in that case.


Second:


No, they are not. There is no "wunderwaffe" or mirracle in case copper SC warhed (HEAT) peentration is well known and I had DOZENS pdf from balistic symposium and PHDs in this thema. Not, it's not possible to achive from 115mm dimatere SC warhed penetration equal to circa 800mm RHA.
It's really simple in thic case.
Given in wikipedia and "army recognition" or other pages values are worth shit - it's the same bullshit as chineese data on sinodefense.
Wana example?
Look - BASIC TOW and ITOW:

And sucht values was given in most sources, when sudently now declassified CIA study become "open", and the true penetration values against a vertical target are much lower:

And here is the same story whit MILAN, MILAN-2T, etc.
MILAN 2 have warhed caliber 115mm . In erly 90s penetration was equal to 6 warhed diameter, now is close to 6.5.

115x6 = 690mm
115x 6.5 = 750mm
End of story here. Any walue above this is bullshit and fairy tails.

End of story here... Pak junk is dead.

 

[militarysta]

Oh, no we will not playing in sucht way:

Show me one single photo whit burn in Grozny T-80
militarysta ↑

.

How stupid parson shoud be to cut the most important part inforamtion about what type T-80 I was asked?
You shown T-80BW wracks from Leningrad factory (Ob.219) while I was aking about T-80U/UD from Charkiv factory (Ob.478BE)

It's completly difrent tank and completly diffrent armour.

What more - I had asked about T-80U not T-80BW. You, like a child, cut this and put potos of complelty diffrent tanks, from difrent factory.

Pakistani T-80UD (Ob.478BE) is completly diffrent tank.
And here Chechnia wreck can't be example about those Pak. T-80UD.

End of story here... Pak junk is dead.

Again - I had posted CIA raport whit real TOW HEAT warhed values, and You give me marketing shit from some popularwebsite.
How difficult is to understand that given in this picture values are impossible
for 103mm SC diameter in MILAN 1(1974) and 115mm in MILAN 2 (1984) when TOW had bigger warhed dimaeter (127mm) and smaller penetration in those years!
Could You explain me?

 

[militarysta]

OH, and BTW:

Pzf 3-T600 whit 110mm dimatere SC warhed had 700mm RHA penetration
penetration ie equal to 6.36 cone dimater. Next proof hov stupid value is 800mm for Milan-2T.

Values biger then 800-900mm for such dimeter (110-115-120mm) warhed are taken from count precursor and main warhed.
For example:
Pzf 3-IT600 have 110mm warhed -so ~715-720mm RHA penetration (6,5 cone damieter) but it hase precursor - circa 34-35mm diameter.

So we had 110mm main warhed (x 6.5) = ~715mm + 34mm precursor (x 6.5) = ~220mm = ~936mm RHA.
And we had "over 900mm RHA" from brochures.
Clou - precursor is cancled by ERA casette, so there is still main warhed vs. main armour = ~715mm.

I hope that I had explin this clearly and good enought.
ATGMs developers use best posible data when they are given penetration - or just overestimated (like previous for TOW, Kornet, etc) or including precursor and main warhed on one plates. What is far from the reality.

 

[AVERAGE INDIAN]

@militarysta just one question can it survive the hits from Javelin and AGM-114 Hellfire ? Overall can it survive the AH-64 Apache

as far as my knowledge goes the paki amour will be twisted piece of metal by the end of the day

 

[Armand2REP]

There were plenty of T-80s from Kharkiv factory in Grozny, plenty of them burned too.

Like the diametre matters if it is 155mm or 115mm, RPG-29 is only 105mm and has penetrated Challey 2, M1A1 and Merkava IV. All of which are more heavily armoured than any T-80.

Like TOW matters, MILAN 2T has nothing to do with their marketing.

Once the tandem warhead hits, ERA is cleared leaving only the exposed hull. if it cannot stop 880mm penetrator, it will be defeated. IA still orders it because they know nothing in Pak or Chini inventory can stop it. You have nothing to disprove the advertised 880mm which has been tested for two decades. If it wasn't so, it would come out by now like it did for TOW.

@militarysta

 

[militarysta]

@militarysta just one question can it survive the hits from Javelin and AGM-114 Hellfire ? Overall can it survive the AH-64 Apache

Minor chanses - modern version Hellfire and Javelin had optimum diving attack mode, and propper SC warhed whit slighty diffrent precursor. IMHO T-80UD will not survive sucht hit, not even mentioned less protected Al-Chalid.

 

[militarysta]

There were plenty of T-80s from Kharkiv factory in Grozny, plenty of them burned too.

There was 23 burn in Chechania war "T-80" show me ONE T-80UD photo. Thee was no T-80UD or U in Chechania.

Like the diametre matters if it is 155mm or 115mm, RPG-29 is only 105mm and has penetrated Challey 2, M1A1 and Merkava IV. All of which are more heavily armoured than any T-80.

1. M1A1 was penetarted only form turret sides when armour is circa 360mm LOS thick.
2. Chally was perforated in lower front hull where is only 80mm RHA plate as whole armour + ERA
3. Merkava was hit in hull sides and rear
Can you explain me how those attacks (rsides and rear) to use Mialn-2T as normal ATGMs on conventional warfare?
And how you become to connlusion about better armoured? In fact in the same years M1A1 was teh same protect as T-80UD. There was of course some changes in conception of the armour, but both tanks was equal protected: M1A1HA and T-80UD.

Like TOW matters, MILAN 2T has nothing to do with their marketing.

?
Both are overestimated a lot. In fact penetration of SC warhed is really easy to estimatous, cous here is no super duper technology.
For now copper cone whit angle circa 40 degree penetration is exual to ~6.5 SC diameter.

if it cannot stop 880mm penetrator, it will be defeated.

115mm x 6.5 = <750mm as the best possible case. In fact it can be 700mm max -per analogy to Panzerfaust-3 and RPG-29 (circa 6-6.3 CD)
those 880mm is wet dream

You have nothing to disprove the advertised 880mm which has been tested for two decades.

Don't be funny The same was about TOW, ITOW TOW-2A "has been tested for two decades" and what? Penetration circa 200mm lower then given in almoust all sources The same is in Milan-2T and Milan-2 case - both are overestimated a lot, and have immposible to made realtio between 115mm SC diamaeter and penetration. Sorry - no posible. It's not possible in Russia, Germany, USA, Israeli, Sweden but sudently in France was? LOL -nope, you just haven't slighty idea how SC warhed works, and how work cone insert in SC warhed. Read something about HEAt warhed. They are dozen good thesis and PHDs about this abavible in internet. Educate yourself and stop writing bullshit about super-frencht-german-MILAN wunderwaffe.

@militarysta[/QUOTE]

 

[charlie]

Let start with Nag ATGM. What is its effect on Pakistani Armour, APCs and Pill boxes etc.
It's penetration.
Detailed technical knowlege with source would be appreciated. With pictures and videos(no youtube)
@Ray @Kunal Biswas @Decklander

Kornet is good enough for any tank without Active hard kill protection system, and it's also proven against Merkava Mark IV which is considered the best protected tanks in the world.

Israeli Merkava Tank V Hizballah fighters using Russian We - YouTube

Full documentary Al Jazeera- Merkava Tank - Part I - YouTube