Kaveri for Infamous MIG-21 fleet

[biswaranjanrath.sipu]

You should contact GTRE and ask questions to them. Nobody has said that Kavery is fit for aircraft application.

The testing is TOTAL of all variants of engine. They are now working on 10th iteration. This engine is under fabrication.

When a prototype passes all tests, then that prototype will be subjected to integration in a fighter platform and further tested. I would assume that it will take SEVERAL THOUSAND HOURS MORE before Kavery is cleared.

Problem is not in the kaveri engine rather lack of willingness of GTRE is the major problem that delays kaveri development and it's integration to any fighter jet.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Kaveri in present form is better than any R-25 engine of 70s, R-25 engine is a Russian licensed engine any modification could resulted into illegal modification, Their are no new R-25 engine and all sort of solution were tried to stop R-25 engine burn outs ..

@Android, Kavery is NOT A CERTIFIED engine yet. It cannot be fitted to any production fighter.
Kavery has to finish its development program. Once it does, it will be fitted on LCA Tejas prototype first.

India can manufacture new R-25 engines if needed.

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Their are no issues of weight with fitting into MIG-21, As Kaveri is same weight class of R-25 ..

Till now kaveri had crossed 2050 hrs of test .tell me how much time it needs to be reliable ? ya of course weight is a major issue which need to be sorted out as soon as possible. I do not tell u r wrong,but DRDO should take a try with kaveri in either mig 21or mig 29 even though there is certain problem.

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Kaveri right now is better than those Russian engines used in MIG-21, Its good enough ..

Kaveri already passed all test paramiters and worked out well in Russia, Its reliable ..

The next will be Kaveri design to fit into a fighter and pass following tests ..

After that it has its use ..

The problem for Kavery is that it is made in facilities which cannot produce current Western class engine. There are many issues. You can put up a design but you also need fabrication facilities. I have already said on this forum that building modern Western engine requires very expensive infrastructure.

Problem is not in the kaveri engine rather lack of willingness of GTRE is the major problem that delays kaveri development and it's integration to any fighter jet.

 

[power_monger]

Kunal,

DRDO is in plans to use MIG 29 as test bed for kaveri engine. So any issues on relaiability will be sorted out in MIg29.
And they have officially moved on from tejas and are now concentrating on getting it fit to AMCA which in my opinion is a correct idea.

Getting kaveri now on to Mig 21 may not be a good idea considering the resource crunch(not really funds) in engine department. We already have Kaveri marine project along with UCAV. We have multiple platforms where kaveri will be tested upon.

 

[sgarg]

Yes, Kavery needs to be developed further to sort out technical issues. Once done, the engine will be fitted to production platforms. All I said was that Kavery is not yet ready.

Aero engine is a high technology area where considerable focus is needed. It is just like semiconductor manufacturing. How much semi-conductor manufacturing India has despite Indians being very good in design.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

The reliability in question is not so as its already passed its reliability tests on IL-76, What kaveri will be getting by fitting into MIG-29 is its compatibility ..

MIG-21 which is being suggested only because its going to serve till 2021 with a unreliable that cost so many lives, Kaveri suits the need, Besides if its a success then it also have a good export potential ..

The department can churn out Kaveri if their is a huge order, The deal with the Navy has this issue ..

DRDO is in plans to use MIG 29 as test bed for kaveri engine. So any issues on relaiability will be sorted out in MIg29. And they have officially moved on from tejas and are now concentrating on getting it fit to AMCA which in my opinion is a correct idea.

Getting kaveri now on to Mig 21 may not be a good idea considering the resource crunch(not really funds) in engine department. We already have Kaveri marine project along with UCAV. We have multiple platforms where kaveri will be tested upon.

 

[sathya]

Points in favour

1. Kaveri engine s new life line, why should the development go to waste ?(UAV will only use dry thrust, LCA needs more power ).
( Successful product to be used anywhere is realistically nowhere, AMCA most probably will you GE 414 initially , Kaveri to catch might take
decades )
2. Mig 21 can serve till LCA 2 matures with less trouble


Points against

1. Technical feasibility ?
2. Cost benefit, how much will the Kaveri cost ? Mig 21 itself is only few millions .
3. First developing a matured Kaveri engine takes time say 3 years, then mating with mig 21 and again testing , say minimum 2 years..
By 2020 when it's ready , we ll be retiring mig 21s

Any way I still feel Kaveri development should not be let go waste as it is...
We should use it in LIFT tejas mk 1 ie stripped down version with less weight

 

[power_monger]

The reliability in question is not so as its already passed its reliability tests on IL-76, What kaveri will be getting by fitting into MIG-29 is its compatibility ..

MIG-21 which is being suggested only because its going to serve till 2021 with a unreliable that cost so many lives, Kaveri suits the need, Besides if its a success then it also have a good export potential ..

The department can churn out Kaveri if their is a huge order, The deal with the Navy has this issue ..

kunal,

1) Mig 21 with Kaveri export potential - Do you think there are countries which would still like to buy Mig - 21 when we have grippen,KA-50 and even tejas?
2) when Kaveri was tested in IL-76 in 2012,five major issues were reported.Some of them were serious in nature like blade throw.There has subsequent reports that DRDO has ironed out all those issue.But to say engine is reliable we need a test bed and record atleast 1000 hours of flight. This is not yet done.Once it is done and we have no issues,we can talk about engine reliablity.
3)I do understand your concerns on Pilots life in Mig - 21. But even if we take the work of fitting kaveri into Mig 21 now,it will be almost 5 years from now,when Mig 21 with kaveri will be flight testified. Instead it would be beneficial to ramp up Tejas production and replace Mig 21.
4) Last but important points,engine prototypes are fine,but large scale manufacturing of kaveri needs to be done and it will take atleast 3-4 years to mass produce if we start now.

So looking at all these issue,i feel kaveri program should be fasttraked for AMCA program and tejas production to be ramped for Mig 21 replacement.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

You must understand, By means of export potential i meant only Kaveri not HAL made MIG-21s, Like IAI is offering its Radar for MIG-21, KA-50 same here with Kaveri ( Now you should understand what i meant in Post No #65 )

As i read the interview of DRDO Chief , It is said all parameters are tested successfully If the engine is not reliable it would not have cleared its parameters, I am only saying the mating should be done after certifications, Since my first post in first page ..

I am only talking about those 125 MIG-21 Bisions which will be operating till 2021, Time to develop depends on nature of urgency and i agree on most of what you are suggesting and saying ..

kunal,

1) Mig 21 with Kaveri export potential - Do you think there are countries which would still like to buy Mig - 21 when we have grippen,KA-50 and even tejas?
2) when Kaveri was tested in IL-76 in 2012,five major issues were reported.Some of them were serious in nature like blade throw.There has subsequent reports that DRDO has ironed out all those issue.But to say engine is reliable we need a test bed and record atleast 1000 hours of flight. This is not yet done.Once it is done and we have no issues,we can talk about engine reliablity.
3)I do understand your concerns on Pilots life in Mig - 21. But even if we take the work of fitting kaveri into Mig 21 now,it will be almost 5 years from now,when Mig 21 with kaveri will be flight testified. Instead it would be beneficial to ramp up Tejas production and replace Mig 21.
4) Last but important points,engine prototypes are fine,but large scale manufacturing of kaveri needs to be done and it will take atleast 3-4 years to mass produce if we start now.

So looking at all these issue,i feel kaveri program should be fasttraked for AMCA program and tejas production to be ramped for Mig 21 replacement.

 

[sgarg]

@Kunal Biswas, Mig-21 is a goner. Let it go.

If there was life left in the aircraft, then re-engining was an option.

Believe me LCA-Tejas can be ramped up. It is possible to make 20-30 LCA Tejas per year.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

I provided every reason to concern about this topic ..

It cannot be be let go, Just my view ..

 

[sgarg]

@Kunal Biswas, I appreciate your point. I think only a few Mig-21 are left. Most are already retired. Only the bison version may be flying now.

The reduced inventory must have made the maintenance much easier. You do not see as many Mig-21 incidents now.

The bison will also go in next few years. The MMRCA will not matter if LCA Tejas is ramped up.

The Mig-21 is no longer sufficient even for the West.

I think GOI must have started the process of building additional capacity for LCA Tejas.

 

[Android]

Sorry guys can't confirm but the news is that KAVERI project could be abondoned by DRDO altogether.
@Kunal Biswas
Sir,I wish it's not true and that i am proven wrong,but have got any idea about this news?

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Navy already placed orders, Its highly doubtful about such decisions ..

 

[sgarg]

I think I have found it very difficult to convince people in this thread though my arguments were precise and correct.

I have said that India has experience only in building Russian origin engines. So plant and machinery is at the level of Russian technology. While GTRE design is novel, the technology used for building the engine is NOT at the level of Western technology.

A fighter engine CANNOT be built in a backyard garage.

Building of fighter engine is AN INDUSTRIAL project. It is very different from many other DRDO project. The fabrication of engine needs an industrial partner. This partner is HAL in the case of GTRE.

The government has to do a lot if it is serious about building fighter engines. DRDO effort has not succeeded mainly because of faulty planning.

 

[Android]

Navy already placed orders, Its highly doubtful about such decisions ..

DRDO has said to have given up,and is instead planning another ambitious engine for which some funds have already been sanctioned. Anyways the decision isn't final yet ,the proposal of scraping kaveri needs approval from MoF and then CCS, MoF had already sought some clarification on it.

 

[sgarg]

DRDO has said to have given up,and is instead planning another ambitious engine for which some funds have already been sanctioned. Anyways the decision isn't final yet ,the proposal of scraping kaveri needs approval from MoF and then CCS, MoF had already sought some clarification on it.

They will still use the technology already developed. Marine turbine is safe. However reliability issues have to be resolved.

 

[Android]

They will still use the technology already developed. Marine turbine is safe. However reliability issues have to be resolved.

Don't know if it was economically viable to open up production line plus make some changes for a few marine engines. Yes that quite obvious that theywould be using all the experience they got from developing kaveri,but a new engine design could make a difference,no?

 

[sgarg]

@Android, India has to do certain things even if its is commercially unviable. The military expenditure cannot be seen from commercial perspective.

 

[Android]

@Android, India has to do certain things even if its is commercially unviable. The military expenditure cannot be seen from commercial perspective.

I agree with that,but its upon MoD to push DRDO ti do something in the national intrest even if it's not economically viable, there has been many cases when small orders were placed when it was required in other parts of the world.

 

[Immanuel]

Useless to put the Kaveri on the Mig-21, the only possible use for the Mig-21/23 and eventually Mig-27 fleets are to be conversions into Target drones to test Astras/Barak-8s/ Akash and other future air defence systems. With some basic conversions I think all fighter aircraft being retired should used for missiles tests. With such conversions we can easily have over a period of time around 300+ target drones, ideal as realistic threats for anti air missiles. With these aircraft capable of high G turns, high speeds and deploying chaff and flares, our anti missiles can be tested in even more realistic scenarios. Actually if the target Migs can retains their EW suits, ECM, RWR, radars, jammers etc. ground controllers using these can effectively try to make it hard for anti air missiles to hit.