Kaveri for Infamous MIG-21 fleet

[AVERAGE INDIAN]

@Kunal Biswas,

Thank you for posting that news about the plans to fix the Kaveri into a MiG-29 and test it. I am looking forward to that event.

Coming to the cartoon you posted in the opening post, I don't think that "Made in USSR" tag is appropriate. A more appropriate tag would be "Made in USSR and in India."

Next year, the GTRE plans to show the engines performance first on an Il-76 plane and then as the second engine fitted on a twin-engined fighter like MiG-29. It would be tuned to certification standards.one year ago no further info available on this regard

New tailwinds for Kaveri engine - The Hindu

The MiG-29 test bed proposal is not new. It is as per originally planned, which dates back to early 2000's. It is not as simple as showing a Kaveri in MiG-29 and flying it. We simply do not have experts who can convert MiG-29 as a test bed and we do not know what parameters to look in while testing. My opinion is get some ruski engineers to india Keep two mig-29s with one kaveri each and a third with two once our comfort level passes 100-200 hours. Buy 3-5 migs for this work. Keep one constantly in air to get those frequent flier miles to declare IOC/FOC.

 

[sgarg]

The Russians can test Kavery for GTRE. Or Kavery can be fitted to LCA Tejas prototype as was the original plan.
I think testing on IL-76 is safer and the engine should be proven on IL-76. Once the engine is proven on IL-76 after all the issues are sorted out, then it can be installed in a fighter.

 

[pmaitra]

The Russians can test Kavery for GTRE. Or Kavery can be fitted to LCA Tejas prototype as was the original plan.
I think testing on IL-76 is safer and the engine should be proven on IL-76. Once the engine is proven on IL-76 after all the issues are sorted out, then it can be installed in a fighter.

Not for testing. LCA has only one engine. If the only engine in a single engine plane is the test-engine Kaveri, it is a major risk. MiG-29 can fly with one engine, so it is feasible to have the second engine as the Kaveri.

 

[sgarg]

Not for testing. LCA has only one engine. If the only engine in a single engine plane is the test-engine Kaveri, it is a major risk. MiG-29 can fly with one engine, so it is feasible to have the second engine as the Kaveri.

Sure, but do we know enough to rig a Mig-29??

 

[pmaitra]

Sure, but do we know enough to rig a Mig-29??

From what I have read so far, we don't know enough.

 

[sgarg]

From what I have read so far, we don't know enough.

Russians are willing to help now. Kavery can be fixed by Russian inputs. Russians are exploring JV route to make engines in India. GOI should explore this kind of JV making Kavery also.

I feel strongly that engine is beyond technical competence of HAL.

 

[pmaitra]

Russians are willing to help now. Kavery can be fixed by Russian inputs. Russians are exploring JV route to make engines in India. GOI should explore this kind of JV making Kavery also.

I feel strongly that engine is beyond technical competence of HAL.

It is GTRE, and I think they have achieved a lot, and stuck at just a few hurdles. If left to its own devices, GTRE will take a while, and hopefully achieve the goal. Alternatively, we can get some help and get it done quickly.

 

[sgarg]

@pmaitra, I do not know how much fabrication is done by GTRE. Building a jet engine requires a large factory. It is not just number of engines. Even one engine will require a lot of resources.
The R&D of a machine is not a textbook exercise. Components are built and tested through both non-destructive and destructive methods. A lot of fabrication needs to be done by the industrial partner.

Many techniques and machines have to be built and may need support of several R&D labs and private industry. A lot of work is needed in alloys etc. GTRE cannot work in isolation. LCA Tejas itself is not only work of ADA but involves several government and private entities.

 

[pmaitra]

@pmaitra, I do not know how much fabrication is done by GTRE. Building a jet engine requires a large factory. It is not just number of engines. Even one engine will require a lot of resources.
The R&D of a machine is not a textbook exercise. Components are built and tested through both non-destructive and destructive methods. A lot of fabrication needs to be done by the industrial partner.

Many techniques and machines have to be built and may need support of several R&D labs and private industry. A lot of work is needed in alloys etc. GTRE cannot work in isolation. LCA Tejas itself is not only work of ADA but involves several government and private entities.

I wasn't talking about setting up a production line. I was talking about R&D only. Yes, you are right. For production, we need what you mentioned.

 

[sgarg]

I wasn't talking about setting up a production line. I was talking about R&D only. Yes, you are right. For production, we need what you mentioned.

No, fabrication facility is needed for R&D also. The engine that you see being tested was not built in a lab. The most likely that engine was built by HAL in Bangalore.

GTRE will create a design. Each component has to be built as per specs by fabrication partner or other parties and then final assembly may be done by GTRE.

 

[freakinghell]

Terrible idea. Migs are old, like REALLY old. They have a reputation of high crash rates. Kaveri is untested, and unreliable. What they need to do is to first "prove" that they have actually built an engine. They need to fly it, and actually prove they have a flyable engine even if it is underpowered. A Tejas powered by Kaveri would never enter IAF. ADA/HAL move at a snails pace. They are talking about 2018 when they'll be done making changes to Tejas to fit the F414. (I really doubt we'll see MKII in IAF before 2020). Aim for GTRE should be to have Kaveri ready for AMCA. And they desperately need take some confidence building measures, at least have a testbed in India to test their engines. The way DRDO/HAL do things doesn't inspire any confidence, so talking about exports is akin to day dreaming right now.

 

[Zebra]

Lets be focus on the real situation at hand, Their are many ways to use Kaveri but here focus is to make old horse run without killing the rider ..

Sir, that old horse saw good time in past. Let it take rest, may be for ever.

The poor rider can get new horse anyway.

Then he won't be poor anymore with his new horse.

Name of that new horse will be Tejas Mk1 and Mk2.

BTW, when they are getting GE engines? Any news please.

When they ordered, they might have requested for some dates of deliveries also.

 

[Zebra]

^^

It will take time to accommodate new engine on MiG 21.

If they get success in doing it then also it will take longer to manufacture new engines in enough numbers.

And if they achieve that goal too, then also the airframes of MiG-21 remained age old.

Then we have to upgrade the airframes also bcz we already put more than enough money on new engines.

Better stay away. Much better get all new aircrafts.

My two cents, anyway.

 

[ersakthivel]

Kaveri requires a tejas sized and shaped air intake, I dont know whether it will be possible for Mig-21 air intake to supply enough air for kaveri . That is the crucial detail to look out.

Also I have read somewhere that the length of the air intake should be around X( 6 or 7 not very sure) times the dia of engine for ideal air flow requirements , Whether Mig-21 air intake will comply with that.


So all these details should matter much.

 

[sgarg]

@ersakthivel, how difficult it is to fix Mig-21 engine? Chinese built J-7/F-7 does not have the problems Indians Mig-21 have. Can you comment on HAL as to why such problems are not fixed?

 

[Kunal Biswas]

November 24, 2012 14:23 IST
New Delhi: A MiG 21 Bison air craft of the Indian Air Force (IAF) crashed near the Naliya air base in Gujarat during a routine sortie today. The fighter plane crash-landed 30 kilometres from the air base in an open forest area, officials said.

May 27, 2014 18:18 IST
Jammu: A MIG-21 fighter aircraft of the Indian Air Force or IAF today crashed in Bijbehara area of Anantnag district in Kashmir, killing the pilot.

Its not about reviving Migs but saving pilots, Each year at average of two-three MIG-21s are going down, Mostly because of faulty engines ..

IAF wants to make them operational till 2021, How many pilots would go down with their Mig-21s ?

MIG -21 does which claimed so many lives, Kaveri is not going to Tejas anytime soon, But if not Tejas why not MIGs ? , This is a noble cause ..

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Further, If IAF does not care about its Pilots then we must do, After all they are our own, It can be someone brother or father, Condolence won`t make MIG-21 safer but right steps will and Gov should ensure this goes in Right direction ..

Sir, that old horse saw good time in past. Let it take rest, may be for ever.

The poor rider can get new horse anyway. .

using new engine on old frame means using new engine for old car body. Lets use it for LCA.

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Well at the moment we know that engine produce 78kn compare to earlier 70-75kn, Other information are not released yet but i am sure they must have reduce the overall weight ..

@Kunalbiswas

dear sir

we need to look at parameters of engines beyund

Dimensions
Dry thurst
wet thurst


can you compare those esp latest figure of kaveri?

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Good point, Gov must look at this option as its in need and Our Research wing should work on it ..

Kaveri requires a tejas sized and shaped air intake, I dont know whether it will be possible for Mig-21 air intake to supply enough air for kaveri . That is the crucial detail to look out.

So all these details should matter much.

 

[Zebra]

Its not about reviving Migs but saving pilots, Each year at average of two-three MIG-21s are going down, Mostly because of faulty engines ..

IAF wants to make them operational till 2021, How many pilots would go down with their Mig-21s ?

MIG -21 does which claimed so many lives, Kaveri is not going to Tejas anytime soon, But if not Tejas why not MIGs ? , This is a noble cause ..






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Well at the moment we know that engine produce 78kn compare to earlier 70-75kn, Other information are not released yet but i am sure they must have reduce the overall weight ..

That's fine.

But how much time it will take!

By that time, life of MiG 21 will get finished. IMO.

On top of it, we are keeping HAL busy for one more job.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

We have to manufacture our engines one day or another to avoid another HF-24 mess again, Kaveri is working but not on Aircraft that is an problem, Sooner HAL will be involve one way or another ..

That is a good question and i think the answer lies in the Gov to make sure it gets on track, I cannot predict the timeline here as i have very little knowledge about such projects, @ersakthivel is the right man to know from ..

That's fine.

But how much time it will take!

By that time, life of MiG 21 will get finished. IMO.

On top of it, we are keeping HAL busy for one more job.

 

[Zebra]

We have to manufacture our engines one day or another to avoid another HF-24 mess again, Kaveri is working but not on Aircraft that is an problem, Sooner HAL will be involve one way or another ..

That is a good question and i think the answer lies in the Gov to make sure it gets on track, I cannot predict the timeline here as i have very little knowledge about such projects, @ersakthivel is the right man to know from ..

Sir, we need more than 254 engines.
Press Information Bureau English Releases

If it is possible to fit this engine on MiG then they should try for MiG 29.