Is Indian class system the reason for India's poverty?

[sgarg]

Re: Is class system and low IQ the reason for India's poverty?

The current caste system is regressive and must be removed.

 

[sgarg]

Re: Is class system and low IQ the reason for India's poverty?

A brahmin could marry a shudra girl in Vedic society without any social stigma. That does not happen in today's society.

 

[Bangalorean]

The reason for India's poverty in today's era is flawed economic policies and flawed governance. Period. No exotic "caste system" or "class system" bullshit here.

Poverty has been reducing ever since economic policies were corrected, and India has massively developed from the 1990s till date. We are about to enter another boom phase in the next 10 years. Those who have sense will invest in India today and reap handsome benefits later.

Those who keep moaning about "ancient Hindooo caste system" and breast-beating that India will never develop because of it, are the ones who will be left behind.

 

[sgarg]

The reason for India's poverty in today's era is flawed economic policies and flawed governance. Period. No exotic "caste system" or "class system" bullshit here.

Poverty has been reducing ever since economic policies were corrected, and India has massively developed from the 1990s till date. We are about to enter another boom phase in the next 10 years. Those who have sense will invest in India today and reap handsome benefits later.

Those who keep moaning about "ancient Hindooo caste system" and breast-beating that India will never develop because of it, are the ones who will be left behind.

Yes India can get richer despite the caste system BUT social harmony is necessary for a stable and prosperous country.
A temporary phase of growth cannot be equated to fundamental change.
Gaining wealth and keeping that wealth are two different things.

 

[Bangalorean]

Yes India can get richer despite the caste system BUT social harmony is necessary for a stable and prosperous country.
A temporary phase of growth cannot be equated to fundamental change.
Gaining wealth and keeping that wealth are two different things.

Society will mature, and the vestiges of the caste system will disappear only with increasing economic growth. Prosperity is a prerequisite for getting rid of caste. No amount of government programming or socialist-inspired "mass education" will fix the problem.

We see this around us. The 1990s were a period of vicious caste violence with the Dalit Sena, Ranbir Sena, etc. gaining notoriety. Not to mention Mandal agitations etc. If we had not seen economic growth, these caste fault-lines would have torn apart the nation.

Today, with increasing urbanization, more and more people are leaving the stifling cesspool of ignorance that is their village, and are making a beeline for cities and towns. There they get exposed to modern ideas and are able to participate in the modern digital economy. There is no scope for the rural caste hierarchy in cities. It is merit that counts. No one in an IT company in Bangalore or a giant factory in Chennai or a bank in Mumbai really cares about the caste of the individual. It is only merit that counts.

With increasing prosperity and financial independence, youngsters are able to make informed choices of their own. The Tamilian call center employee who marries a North-Eastern girl in a "love marriage" has done his bit to unite the nation and has dealt yet another blow to the caste system. Such stories abound in urban middle-class India. Had this been a tiny village in Haryana, the couple would have been lynched and the Khap would have ordered "gangrape of the girl" as a "punishment".

So net-net, the point is that we need economic growth, urbanization and prosperity. Most of the nation's problems will automatically be taken care of, if economy becomes our prime focus as a nation.

And anyhow, the question asked in the thread was, "is Indian class system responsible for poverty". The answer is, "bullshit, it is not any exotic class system that is responsible, but bad economic and governance policies".

 

[ezsasa]

Society will mature, and the vestiges of the caste system will disappear only with increasing economic growth. Prosperity is a prerequisite for getting rid of caste. No amount of government programming or socialist-inspired "mass education" will fix the problem.

We see this around us. The 1990s were a period of vicious caste violence with the Dalit Sena, Ranbir Sena, etc. gaining notoriety. Not to mention Mandal agitations etc. If we had not seen economic growth, these caste fault-lines would have torn apart the nation.

Today, with increasing urbanization, more and more people are leaving the stifling cesspool of ignorance that is their village, and are making a beeline for cities and towns. There they get exposed to modern ideas and are able to participate in the modern digital economy. There is no scope for the rural caste hierarchy in cities. It is merit that counts. No one in an IT company in Bangalore or a giant factory in Chennai or a bank in Mumbai really cares about the caste of the individual. It is only merit that counts.

With increasing prosperity and financial independence, youngsters are able to make informed choices of their own. The Tamilian call center employee who marries a North-Eastern girl in a "love marriage" has done his bit to unite the nation and has dealt yet another blow to the caste system. Such stories abound in urban middle-class India. Had this been a tiny village in Haryana, the couple would have been lynched and the Khap would have ordered "gangrape of the girl" as a "punishment".

So net-net, the point is that we need economic growth, urbanization and prosperity. Most of the nation's problems will automatically be taken care of, if economy becomes our prime focus as a nation.

And anyhow, the question asked in the thread was, "is Indian class system responsible for poverty". The answer is, "bullshit, it is not any exotic class system that is responsible, but bad economic and governance policies".

One of the exceptions to the theory that urbanisation reduces caste system is the reddy and Chowdhary rivalry in andhra and Telangana . Even though it is a political rivalry and nothing to do with caste system being discussed in this thread. This is having a negative impact on productivity at work place. For a long time I have been advising freshers to get a job outside of Hyderabad so that they do not get caught up in this cycle.

 

[Bangalorean]

One of the exceptions to the theory that urbanisation reduces caste system is the reddy and Chowdhary rivalry in andhra and Telangana . Even though it is a political rivalry and nothing to do with caste system being discussed in this thread. This is having a negative impact on productivity at work place. For a long time I have been advising freshers to get a job outside of Hyderabad so that they do not get caught up in this cycle.

Things don't change instantly. And as you point out, freshers have the option to move to Bangalore or Chennai or Pune or NCR for a job, to escape casteist shit. Similarly, freshers from Bangalore, Mumbai, Kolkata, etc. move to Hyderabad as part of the natural cycle of demand and supply. A Bangalore guy has no idea of the "Reddy-Chowdhary shit" prevalent in Hyderabad, while a Hyderabadi has no idea of the caste dynamics of Karnataka (Gowdas, Lingayats, etc.).

Constant urbanization, migration, inter-relationships and development aided by the merit-oriented private sector will radically change India. This will happen within our lifetimes.

 

[sgarg]

@Bangalorean, you are actually quite wrong. Urbanization is not the solution to caste problem. The problem has to be dealt at religious and social level and the change has to start from village.

Whenever a change has succeeded in India, it has come from grassroots.

There is no basis of caste system in Hindu scriptures like Veda and Upanishad. Even bulk of Purannic literature does not support today's caste system. There is a good case for religious leaders to take this issue strongly. However in today's society, everybody wants to do what sells. People are afraid to speak the truth.

Caste system is based on petty issues like false prestige and property matters. It is not much related to religion at all.

The Vedic classes are totally different concept. The class in Veda gives certain privileges and responsibilities which is very much needed for smooth conduct of society.

 

[Bangalorean]

@sgarg, I am speaking in practical terms. On paper, it is easy to say that "grassroots change" at the "social and religious level" is what we need. In practice, all these government-inspired socialist type programs for "reeducation" never work.

Instead, just focus on economic development, urbanization, industrialization and prosperity. Social changes will automatically occur.

 

[sgarg]

@sgarg, I am speaking in practical terms. On paper, it is easy to say that "grassroots change" at the "social and religious level" is what we need. In practice, all these government-inspired socialist type programs for "reeducation" never work.

Instead, just focus on economic development, urbanization, industrialization and prosperity. Social changes will automatically occur.

The government is implementing reservations for many years. I have seen positive results of the reservation system though there are some negative results as well. However if we take an overall view, the reservation system is positive. Poverty alleviation programs have also benefited the lower caste.

There is a lot of mismanagement in subsidy programs, so I would say most beneficial is the reservation in education and jobs.
The electronic transfer of subsidy directly to the recipient will make much larger difference.

We need to ensure (through GOI) that all citizens receive the same treatments in terms of economic opportunity. So there is a role of the government.

Ultimately the caste based reservation has to stop and replaced with food subsidy for poor like USA. This will happen when surveys show that reserved castes are fairly represented economically in the society.

Social changes never occur "automatically". Social change is always driven either by religious forces or through governance.

 

[TrueSpirit1]

Today a "caste system" is practiced which is far worse than "by birth class system". Caste is absolutely illogical and pathetic system.

However people are waking up as they get educated and barriers are falling. We expect India to become an egalitarian society in 40-50 years down the road.

As long as ubiquitous caste-based reservations in jobs/promotions continue, caste-based politics would continue to survive. Egalitarian society -that's not even a pipedream.

 

[TrueSpirit1]

Interesting, I did not know that there was such a prospering society in India. What to say, we also had classes before in Europe before. Nordic system gets blamed for not cresting enough economic growth, but I think that it more than enough compensates that with low inequity. Cant imagine how it is to live in a country with great past and problematic todays society. Try not to think too much of the past, concentrate more on future.

@jouni, India & China were 100x times richer than any other society throughout the documented history, till as recently as 1700 (i.e. for several thousand years). Europe's prosperity (already on the decline) is , comparatively, a very recent phenomena ( a equally ephemeral, as well), which started post-Industrial revolution.

Everyone knows which nation is headed where. While India-China is consistently ascending, EU nations are in a permanent recession & depend on immigrants to continue running their tiny nations- a trend that would only intensify in future.

 

[jouni]

@jouni, India & China were 100x times richer than any other society throughout the documented history, till as recently as 1700 (i.e. for several thousand years). Europe's prosperity (already on the decline) is , comparatively, a very recent phenomena ( a equally ephemeral, as well), which started post-Industrial revolution.

Everyone knows which nation is headed where. While India-China is consistently ascending, EU nations are in a permanent recession & depend on immigrants to continue running their tiny nations- a trend that would only intensify in future.

So instead of both growing together for a better world, you want to put us down? Of course I am not the right person, coming from a small country to comment of the future of the west, but I think it looks good. We have built infrastructure and social capital for centuries, even if the growth slows down, it is still there. You on the other hand have a huge work ahead to try to bring everybody onboard the progress train.

 

[TrueSpirit1]

There is no scope for the rural caste hierarchy in cities. It is merit that counts. No one in an IT company in Bangalore or a giant factory in Chennai or a bank in Mumbai really cares about the caste of the individual. It is only merit that counts.

Caste still counts in TCS. Or, so it is believed.
@bose How true is that ? Any TCS guy, here ?

 

[sgarg]

As long as ubiquitous caste-based reservations in jobs/promotions continue, caste-based politics would continue to survive. Egalitarian society -that's not even a pipedream.

I know caste based reservation is wrong, but so is the caste system. If you see it the other way - we need to ensure fair opportunity to all sections of society.
Reservation is only in government jobs. Government jobs are actually in decline in India. There is no reservation in the private sector. So the situation is not as you describe.

 

[sgarg]

So instead of both growing together for a better world, you want to put us down? Of course I am not the right person, coming from a small country to comment of the future of the west, but I think it looks good. We have built infrastructure and social capital for centuries, even if the growth slows down, it is still there. You on the other hand have a huge work ahead to try to bring everybody onboard the progress train.

We are not putting you down. Yes everybody is on the progress train.
The number of expats have grown very rapidly where I live (in India). Probably 3% of population of my city is expats. So India has globalized to an extent which was not anticipated by anybody even 20 years before. There is a lot of change.

 

[Bangalorean]

Caste still counts in TCS. Or, so it is believed.
@bose How true is that ? Any TCS guy, here ?

There will be some amount of caste/regional/linguistic/parochial considerations everywhere. It hardly counts enough to make a big dent. I am not a TCS guy, neither am I am ex-TCS guy - but I know several people who are. While there are several things to say against TCS, institutionalized caste bias is not one of them.

 

[TrueSpirit1]

I know caste based reservation is wrong, but so is the caste system. If you see it the other way - we need to ensure fair opportunity to all sections of society.
Reservation is only in government jobs. Government jobs are actually in decline in India. There is no reservation in the private sector. So the situation is not as you describe.

So, what you are saying is: you have never ventured beyond your metro ? You must be a proper-city guy.

Caste-based politics is thriving all across India. It is not going to change in a hurry. As far as egalitarianism is concerned, the gap has only increased since we initiated our so-called reforms. Lets not venture there (in this thread).

Regarding reservations, I am not against them per se, I am against the blatant misappropriation of the all available opportunities (jobs) by few dominant castes, leaving the vast majority of India in perpetual penury.

The kind of reservation-policy we have, has only served to divide the already fragmented society leading to rise of anti-national subversive elements like MSY, Laloo, Mamta & Behnaji. Vast majority if Indian poor are totally deprived of any benefit of reservation because the castes which have already benefited out of it, continues to grab, garner & limit all opportunities to its progeny, leading to a vicious circle.

The ones who missed the bus back in the days, continues to be the most deprived lot. The only ones who benefit are the already entrenched, dominant castes.

The only just form of reservation could be the one based solely on economic criterion. Why should some families keep enjoying all resources/benefits of our nation at the cost of truly deserving ones ?

Yar, itna basic to sabko maloom hota hai...

 

[jouni]

Do you have special areas where the lower caste people live? Or are they mixed with others? Do they have to wear some sign telling their caste? Just asking, your system is new to me. Reminds of some sort of "caste" system we had here some 70-80 years ago.

 

[Voldemort]

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