India Cold Start Doctrine and Pakistan's Tactical Nukes

[no smoking]

What Pakistan must keep in mind is that India has fairly developed secondary strike capability. India has ballistic missiles with nuclear warhead that can be launched from submarines in short notice.

No, that is not what Pakistan concerns as they have no ability to find where the India nuclear weapons are during the war, not to mention the ability to destroy these weapons.
What can an enemy learn from Cold start doctrine? It is quick, decisive and limited target - ending the war before forcing Pakistan to think about their nuclear option.

 

[Bhadra]

No, that is not what Pakistan concerns as they have no ability to find where the India nuclear weapons are during the war, not to mention the ability to destroy these weapons.
What can an enemy learn from Cold start doctrine? ir It is quick, decisive and limited target - ending the war before forcing Pakistan to think about their nuclear option.

Use of conventional military forces under nuclear regime is a game which was started by Pakistan in Kargil. Coupled with that, use of Jihadi terrorism against India as an instrument of State policy is another continuing threat India has been facing. Pakistan has time and again conveyed such military options are viable in spite of nuclear regime.

So, let it be that. India needs to exercise the space available for conventional military operations under nuclear regime potently and decisively and not allow Pakistan to dictate terms by their lowering of nuclear threshold by TNW such as Nasar.

Secondly, if Pakistan is intent on using the conventional military forces as also terrorism as low level coercive instruments, India must be ready to pay back in coins having a little greater value than Pakistan. The instability regime created by Pakistan must have greater destabilizing effect on Pakistan.

Indian IBG will at least keep the Pakistan forces on their tows, destabilize the existing force structures, deployment patterns and state of readiness. Pakistani military can not be allowed to direct operations against India from their cosy air conditioned rooms in Rawalpindi.

 

[Haldiram]

So, let it be that. India needs to exercise the space available for conventional military operations under nuclear regime potently and decisively

And this is a LARGE space. Several war games have shown that Pakistan will not pull out its nukes even after it loses a large territory to India, because that would risk losing the remaining territory as well. It's for India to pick the space accordingly. If 3 IBGs are able to capture 3 major cities, they can't blow up their own cities.

This narrative is much more accurate and it's about time it is communicated to Indian civilians as well. All the think tanks have been parroting the 'massive retaliation' narrative which spooks Indians because it is premised on Pakistan attacking us first.

If a war looks imminent, India can rush to capture their major cities and preempt a nuclear first strike; Forget the need for a second strike. One must get rid of this perception of nuclear threat out of public narrative. It's been taken care of.

 

[Haldiram]

Good talk on India's options :

 

[Bhadra]

From the two posts above, post #502 and #503 some things have become clear. Namely -

* IBG will be a formal, pre - structured organisation under a Divisional type HQ commanded by a Major General rather than being formed during Warning Period. It means, one of the existing RAPID Divisional HQ form the Pivot Corps will be nominated as IBG or additional Div HQ created to form an IBG. Rest of IBG would be created from the existing Corps resources.

* IBG will be structured around an infantry brigade plus, one armoured brigade plus or an independent armoured brigade, one artillery brigade plus, Engineer battalion, Signal Battalion, Logistics elements, attack heptrs / aviation assets, AD assets and bridging / track and water supply assets. However, the force levels and structures will vary as per terrain and tasks. One of the gun artillery brigades will have to be pulled out of Arty Divs or independent artillery brigades to be grouped with this. This kind of IBG will in effect be a potent divisional plus size force requiring no additional basic resources.

* This force will be deployed in peacetime as far forward as possible as uncommitted offensive force as IBG or alternatively can also be utilised to restore adverse situation within Corps Zone in case of Pakistani preemption.

* The existing area of responsibility of Divisions in defence may be redistributed or an an additional command structures such as a Div HQ may be created to command and control the remaining two / three brigades presently under the Div HQ that has been converted into an IBG.

* These IBGs will remain under and form part of Pivot Corps. The IBG operations will be conducted by Pivot Corps.

* So far three IBGs will be structured for Western border possibly one each for the three command theatres. However the three IBG could be launched at three points independently or in unison at one objective.

* The entire exercise entails restructuring only without raising any force except may be additional HQs.

* IBG in mountains will be a brigade group under a Brigadier. No additional resources or HQs will be required for mountain IBGs. There can be two or more IBGs per holding Corps formed out of Corps reserves or brigades holding less threatened sectors which can be looked after by PMF / ITBP / BSF.

The numbers of Div size IBGs for Western borders are likely to increase upto six in near future.

 

[Bhadra]

And this is a LARGE space. Several war games have shown that Pakistan will not pull out its nukes even after it loses a large territory to India, because that would risk losing the remaining territory as well. It's for India to pick the space accordingly. If 3 IBGs are able to capture 3 major cities, they can't blow up their own cities.

This narrative is much more accurate and it's about time it is communicated to Indian civilians as well. All the think tanks have been parroting the 'massive retaliation' narrative which spooks Indians because it is premised on Pakistan attacking us first.

If a war looks imminent, India can rush to capture their major cities and preempt a nuclear first strike; Forget the need for a second strike. One must get rid of this perception of nuclear threat out of public narrative. It's been taken care of.

I entirely agree with you...................

 

[tharun]

Before IBG's we need is a new command for air defense.


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[no smoking]

Use of conventional military forces under nuclear regime is a game which was started by Pakistan in Kargil. ..... Pakistani military can not be allowed to direct operations against India from their cosy air conditioned rooms in Rawalpindi.

No, the situation is that India can defeat or kill Pakistan as an independent country with mere conventional forces without paying big cost. As a response, Pakistan threatens to bring nuclear weapon into it if they are facing another 1971. The Kargil war proved that their nuclear threat doesn't apply to every conflict and they can accept a defeat in a limited war.
India's cold start doctrine reflect exactly this idea: they will not pursue another 1971 war and Pakistan's existence will not be threatened. So, Pakistan leaders can move their hands off the nuclear button.

 

[Bhadra]

No,

What No ??

the situation is that India can defeat or kill Pakistan as an independent country with mere conventional forces without paying big cost. As a response, Pakistan threatens to bring nuclear weapon into it if they are facing another 1971.

If India so wishes and if destruction of Pakistan is in the national interests of India.

However, to my limited understanding Pakistan was forced to be a overt nuclear weapon country in order to bring in some stability into unstable deterrence regime that Pakistan was resorting to being a clandestine nuclear power with the constant threat of use of its undeclared nuclear weapons.

However, unfortunately that did not bring in any stability. On the contrary, that embolden Pakistan to use her conventional and hybrid terrorist forces against India. Use of conventional military power by India in limited manner is required to be seen in that context.

Aim - to deter Pakistan using terrorism as an instrument of its policy vis a vis India. In other words the aim is to bring back deterrence as an instrument of stability between two countries.

India's national aim - to obtain a secure environment for her economic and national progress and provide security and peace to her people.

The Kargil war proved that their nuclear threat doesn't apply to every conflict and they can accept a defeat in a limited war.

Kargil war proved that Pakistan does not want a stable deterrence regime of security in the subcontinent. Pakistan, particularly its military establishment, on the other hand proved that -

* The stability desired by India can be disturbed and turned into dangerous instability by limited use of conventional forces as also terrorism even under a nuclear regime.
* The Pakistani Army considers any stabile security regime between India and Pakistan as a threat to survival of Pakistan and her security establishment.
* And that Pakistan would continue to pursue their goals on instability by all means to survive as a nation state.

India's cold start doctrine reflect exactly this idea: they will not pursue another 1971 war and Pakistan's existence will not be threatened. So, Pakistan leaders can move their hands off the nuclear button.

Very wrong. India will always remain prepared and capable of inflicting another 1971 on Pakistan, if so required.
Nuclear button or no button.

Pakistan's existence is threatened by peace between India and Pakistan. Hostilities with India provides that pathetic nation and population a pathetic reason to exist.

Cold Start doctrine ts meant to convey that Pakistani nonsense will not go unresponded.

Khalas !..............

 

[Shashank Nayak]

No, the situation is that India can defeat or kill Pakistan as an independent country with mere conventional forces without paying big cost. As a response, Pakistan threatens to bring nuclear weapon into it if they are facing another 1971. The Kargil war proved that their nuclear threat doesn't apply to every conflict and they can accept a defeat in a limited war.
India's cold start doctrine reflect exactly this idea: they will not pursue another 1971 war and Pakistan's existence will not be threatened. So, Pakistan leaders can move their hands off the nuclear button.

The strike corps will still be there... Waiting in the wings, so pakistan can never be sure ..

 

[Compersion]

Fascinating to read of and about the IBG and Cold Start Doctrine of Bharat.

Make me wonder and think does Iran have a cold start doctrine versus Pakistan?

Does Pakistan have a cold start doctrine versus Iran? How does the Paki Air Force and Iran Air Force play a role in such.

 

[Bhadra]

Fascinating to read of and about the IBG and Cold Start Doctrine of Bharat.

Make me wonder and think does Iran have a cold start doctrine versus Pakistan?

Does Pakistan have a cold start doctrine versus Iran? How does the Paki Air Force and Iran Air Force play a role in such.

Iran and Pakistan has no territorial disputes. They have a common problem of Baloch insurgency though but with common land and maritime borders Pakistan can sell themselves and provide the land, bses and logistics for attack on Iran by US. After all Pakistan was created by British Imperialism to protect eastern flank of their vast oil wealth of Pursia / Iran.

So far as the doctrine is concerned, due to her geographical peculiarities wherein they have no depth and all their heartland / population centers located near Indo -Pak border, Pakistan has no options but to adopt offensive defense doctrine.

With India's Cold start doctrine, Pakistan now has no option but to be on borders to launch offensive ab initio, get trapped by Indian Forces as always, be termed as aggressor. She will have nothing much left to defend themselves against Indian IBGs followed by four huge strike Corps.

It is terrible situation for them. They would have negated their Nasar themselves by being aggressors. If not they will have to destroy their population centers by their TNWs.

The tragedy of Pakistan is that one major population center like Sialkot / Kasur near the border having been captured by Indian Forces will trigger a collapse of Pakistan. People will start killing their own Army and Jihadis and run towards India.

Full team out after 119 .... just collapse and Pakistan goes on TV breaking spree. What will be the effect of Saikot or Bhawalpur having been captured ?.

 

[IndianHawk]

No, the situation is that India can defeat or kill Pakistan as an independent country with mere conventional forces without paying big cost. As a response, Pakistan threatens to bring nuclear weapon into it if they are facing another 1971. The Kargil war proved that their nuclear threat doesn't apply to every conflict and they can accept a defeat in a limited war.
India's cold start doctrine reflect exactly this idea: they will not pursue another 1971 war and Pakistan's existence will not be threatened. So, Pakistan leaders can move their hands off the nuclear button.

It doesn't work because India is also nuclear power. So even when Pakistan faces another 1971 moment it will have hard choices to make to accept division of Pakistan or to accept nuclear annihilation at the hands of India.

Given paki track record division is more likely.
Nuclear is self assuring idiocy of paki. They have no practical value . Not using nukes might divide Pakistan but still paki Punjab could live as a separate state while using nukes makes certain entire paki Punjab wiped out . India might let Balochistan live.

Not to mention Indian BMD shied is getting more dense and effective by the day.

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[Anand Bimraj]

Lol!! Parvin you're quoting? Read his article yourself there are so many inaccuracies from our official version. He talks as if PAF did a tactical mission when they attacked in the day time. He is forgetting the fact that they just put up an show. And what proof is he talking about what PAF has provided? They have literally provided zero proof other than our crashed mig and pilot which was unexpected for both sides. This was more like an anti-Modi article to help the Congress but, we all know how that failed. Balakot images will be released just like the surgical strike 1.

https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/out...arm-its-sukhois-with-israeli-missiles-2044172
Well this is just another article admitting India's failure on 27 February 2019 check out NDTV where india admittin to saying After losing one of its fighters to Pakistani jets JF-17 armed with American-made missiles, India is not happy with its Russian-made missilesI Really find it funny. One engagement and "put all these in the garbage, we need new missiles." It's like being rich, having 50 Audi, one fails to beat a Lamborghini, so you decide to dump all of them and get Porches=)

 

[Bhadra]

https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/out...arm-its-sukhois-with-israeli-missiles-2044172
Well this is just another article admitting India's failure on 27 February 2019 check out NDTV where india admittin to saying After losing one of its fighters to Pakistani jets JF-17 armed with American-made missiles, India is not happy with its Russian-made missilesI Really find it funny. One engagement and "put all these in the garbage, we need new missiles." It's like being rich, having 50 Audi, one fails to beat a Lamborghini, so you decide to dump all of them and get Porches=)

Forget about that Randeetv.

The tragedy is that Pakistanis are unfortunately a delusional people.

You have delusion and in the words of Tarek Fatah "Chasing a Mirage" ....
Pakistanis are delusional about their race, ancestry, history. origins, religion and about their nation and nationality.

Pakistanis are very delusional about Islam, Jihad, Ghazwa e Hind and ultimate aims of their lives, society and nation.

Thy are hugely delusional of their prowess and military capabilities specially when their leaders of all class have been claiming that one (Pakistani) muslim is capable of killing ten Hindus. They have been delusional on Home Rule, Separate electorate, Khilafat and direct action and partition of India.

They have a massive delusion about J&K, they were delusional in 1948, 1965, 1971, 1999 and finally about Balakot.

So I do not blame you whatever nonsense and unfound story you are presenting. That is but small delusion...

Whatever you may say, Cold Start Doctrine of which Surgical Strikes are a part is hugely successful and Pakistani Nasars will be destroyed in the storage and preparation areas only. Let us see your Nasar against Indian Mig-21s.......

 

[Brimstone]

Indian Mig-21s.

Also, it was a Mig 21 which downed the Atlantique killing 5 officers and 11 sailors

 

[Indx TechStyle]

Well this is just another article admitting India's failure on 27 February 2019 check out NDTV

A media house doesn't represent GOI, most certainly not NDTV.

After losing one of its fighters to Pakistani jets JF-17 armed with American-made missiles,

There has been more than sufficient proof that F-16 and not JF-17 was involved. JF-17 can't be integrated with American missiles you half braincell.

I Really find it funny

What is funny?

 

[ezsasa]

So glad that folks are making such videos these days, may this tribe grow.
Technically sound non-jingoistic non-sensationalising informative videos are always welcome.

 

[Tang]

https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/out...arm-its-sukhois-with-israeli-missiles-2044172
Well this is just another article admitting India's failure on 27 February 2019 check out NDTV where india admittin to saying After losing one of its fighters to Pakistani jets JF-17 armed with American-made missiles, India is not happy with its Russian-made missilesI Really find it funny. One engagement and "put all these in the garbage, we need new missiles." It's like being rich, having 50 Audi, one fails to beat a Lamborghini, so you decide to dump all of them and get Porches=)

JF17 armed with American made missiles
Is this a joke to you

 

[Tupac slayer]

I have a few doubts regarding Cold Start doctrine,

1) As per CSD will India's 3 Strike Corps (I, II, XXI) will be split into IBG?

2) There are information circulating that Pivot Corps will be enhanced Artillery and Armor support? will these support will be additional or taken away from strike corps & provided to Pivot Corps?

3) One more Information I gone through this thread earlier post is that Sundarji Doctrine of splitting Pakistan into 2 are not abandoned. This means Pivot Corps will make shallow thrusts after holding Pakistan II Strike Corps attack on India in Rajasthan Sector. After that Indian Strike Corps will exploit the gaps and advance deep into Pakistan.

Logical Plan to retake Western Part of Kashmir:

If Indian army is planning to concentrate 12 Divisions against Pakistan between Fort Abbas and Suliemanke. To do that India needs to use I, II, XXI Strike Corps and X Corps for a decisive blow against Pakistan XXXI Corp and II Corps, with 5 Divisions destroying the centre of Pakistan line and then turning north to outflank Pakistan IV, XXX, I Corps from the rear. Then advance further North to take Rawalpindi and trap Pakistan force in Kashmir


It means Indian army leadership is ready to leave Pathankot-Jammu Corridor Vulnerable to Pakistan I Strike Corps and most of the Rajasthan Vulnerable to Pakistan XII, V Corps. We could lose around 1,00,000 Km2 of territory including our life line to kashmir, where Pakistan will attack with X and XI Corps costing us a big chunk of kashmir.

Indian army believes Pakistan Centre of Gravity lies in Punjab. Once we Indian army captures Bhawalpur, Multan, Lahore, Islamabad, Rawalpindi. Pakistan is finished plus collapse. If Indian army is out numbered in some of the sectors, Indian army can counter attack and minimize the loss of territory captured by Pakistan.


Above may be the plan of Sundarji, May be professionals and experts can confirm.

The plan is good, but what is not there?

Biggest advantage Pakistan has is, Pakistan is ready to give ground on desert sector, Because unlike Indian Politicians who want every inch of our ground to be defended, Pakistan politicians are not under such pressure. This timidity thinking by Indian Politicians, is one of the biggest disadvantage of Indian Military and advantage of Pakistan strategic community.

Above Plan which I took from a book is for capturing Western Part of Kashmir, but for capturing Northern Part of POK. We may have to raise several new divisions, procure more helicopters ( Indigenously) & Create additional strike corps. The talk of lean and mean army should end and we should develop a VIBRANT MILITARY INDUSTRIAL COMPLEX to recapture POK.

Experts and professional are requested to answer the three questions which I raised at the beginning of this post?

A Wonderful thread, Thank you all