HAL Light Utility Helicopter (LUH) and Light Observation Helicopter (LOH)

Discussion in 'Indian Air Force' started by Indx TechStyle, Nov 6, 2015.

  1. HariPrasad-1

    HariPrasad-1 Senior Member Senior Member

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    CO axial rotors are very important and they save 15% power of tail rotor which may be used in lifting.
     
  2. Indx TechStyle

    Indx TechStyle War Mongerer Veteran Member Senior Member

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    Well, "never flying" is impossible.
    They won't get their salary then.:D
     
  3. G10

    G10 Regular Member

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    Govt Job. Nothing wrong can happen to salary. Its only gets fatter and fatter with every pay commision.
     
  4. AnantS

    AnantS Senior Member Senior Member

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    yet also increase in the cost of maintenance, also collision of contra rotors also increases
     
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  5. Raj Malhotra

    Raj Malhotra Regular Member

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    LUH will fly after most of the orders are absorbed by imported light helicopters.
     
  6. Indx TechStyle

    Indx TechStyle War Mongerer Veteran Member Senior Member

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    At zero work, you are suspended from Govt. job even.:rolleyes:
     
  7. PaliwalWarrior

    PaliwalWarrior Regular Member

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    HAL is not a govt job

    It is a govt owned company with different pay structure not related to pay commissions
     
  8. Gessler

    Gessler Senior Member Senior Member

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    Thankfully, the import options are getting delayed. Otherwise, we would have already placed firm orders for around ~200 Ka-226T atleast an year ago. But once LUH makes it's flight, HAL will have a strong case to convince MoD not to import.

    Even if import happens, HAL LUH will still get a minimum 187 orders. If imports are delayed long enough, LUH can get 187+197 = 384 orders. That would be a perfect scenario.
     
  9. tejas warrior

    tejas warrior Senior Member Senior Member

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    Light Helicopter Replacement – Confusion Prevails Published July 23, 2016 SOURCE: Lt Gen BS Pawar (Retired ) / Bharatshakti.in The Indian Army’s aviation fleet is mostly a rusted inventory flogged by succeeding governments to a point whenwives of the army aviators had to express their concern over the safety of their husbands who fly these outdated machines. The impact that outdated aviation assets can have on our military capabilities barely needs elaboration. The proposed Kamov 226T deal with the Russians offers much hope. But will the Indian Government be able to negotiate the hurdles that involve negotiating with not just the Russians but also a host of other manufacturers and their governments. The General lists some of these issues and goes on to opine that the deal remains crucial for Army Aviation and needs to be completed this year. If it takes the course that the Rafale deal is into, it would impact our force capabilities rather hard. LIGHT HELICOPTER REPLACEMENT – CONFUSION PREVAILS The Cheetah /Chetak replacement programme continues to flounder despite the Government to Government agreement between India and Russia for the supply of 200 Kamov- 226T light helicopters under the Make in India Policy. Presently there is no clarity on as to how this project will move forward and both sides seem to be struggling to meet the challenging ‘Make in India’ requirement of building 50 per cent of the helicopter in India. While the Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) has been designated as the nodal agency for this critical programme along with Russian Helicopters there are a number of complex issues involved which need to be addressed in order to move ahead. The recent statement of Russian Helicopters that they are working with HAL to iron out the various contentious issues and that the signing of the contract is likely by year end is a positive development but it’s likely transformation into realty seems a distant dream in the current situation. The complexities involved in this project are far too many and one will have to wait and watch as to how these will be addressed and get resolved eventually. Given the track record of other such crucial Government to Government deals like the Army’s M777 Howitzer and the Airforce’s MMRCA Rafale projects, which are still nowhere near closure despite a period of three to four years having elapsed, the prospect of concluding a contract for the Ka-226 project by end of the year does not inspire much confidence. The main issue is the overall composition of the Ka-226T helicopter in terms of various components and systems. Russian Helicopters, which has developed the Kamov-226T, has sourced its twin engines (Arrius 2G1, which constitutes almost one-third of the chopper’s cost), from the French company, Turbomeca. Other key systems and avionics have been sourced from some other companies in the global market. As per reports the Russian Government has accepted responsibility only for indigenising Russian components – a step which would result in a shortfall of the indigenisation levels required as per the ‘Make in India’ Programme. This also means that HAL as the nodal agency on behalf of the Indian Government will have to negotiate separately with third country vendors for indigenising their components and systems. Reports emanating from the Farnborough Air Show suggest that the French company, ‘Safran Helicopter Engines’ (parent company of Turbomeca) and HAL have agreed to establish in India a support centre for helicopter engines catering to their manufacturing and provision of MRO facilities – this JV is likely to come up by the end of this year. This JV will initially cater to TM 333 and ‘Shakti’ engines installed on the HAL built helicopters like the ALH ( Dhruv), Rudra (armed ALH) and the Light Combat Helicopter (LCH). Shakti is more powerful than the TM 333 and is the Indian name for Safran Ardiden 1H engine which is already being co-developed with HAL and produced under license. It also seems likely that the engine for HAL’s under-development Light Utility Helicopter (LUH) will subsequently also form part of this JV as Safran’s Ardiden 1U engine is already fitted on the developmental model. However, whether the Arrius2G engines fitted on the Kamov 226T helicopters will sometimes in a later timeframe get included in the JV remains to be seen, as there are many imponderables and will be clear only after the final contract is inked. Add to this the fact that as per the Government agreement, Russian Helicopters will deliver the first 60 helicopters in flyaway condition – these would be assembled entirely in Russia, with little scope for indigenisation. That would also be the case with the next 40 or so helicopters, shipped as kits from Russia to be assembled in India. This leaves the balance 100 helicopters for meeting the 50 per cent ‘Make in India’ goals over the entire fleet of 200. It is understood that some Indian private companies may also be part of this programme, especially to build Kamov-226T components and systems in India. Keeping in mind the complexity of the case it is anybody’s guess whether this project will ever see the light of the day or will wither away like some other such agreements as brought out earlier. In the meantime there seems to be no clarity on the fate of the latest RFI which was issued for the never ending Reconnaissance and Surveillance Helicopters (RSH) programme on 31 October 2014. This was a done in a ‘Buy-and-Make-India’ approach with a certain number of helicopters to be supplied by the selected OEM in flyaway condition and the remaining numbers to be built at a production facility in India, by an Indian partner through licensed transfer of technology. Essentially, this RFI envisaged identification of probable Indian Vendors (private or public), including those who would form Joint Ventures (JVs) and establish production arrangements with an OEM so as to provide the helicopters, followed by licensed production in the country. The response date was extended twice from the original 17 December 2014, with the final date being pegged at 20 April 2015. This generated much interest, and was key topic of speculation during Aero India 2015. But Kamov-226T agreement has left the fate of the 197 RSH project hanging in balance with no clarity from the Government so far– while the RSH project has not been cancelled, total confusion reigns in the industry and the armed forces regarding its future. Simultaneously, HAL’s new Light Utility Helicopter (LUH) Project ( 3 Ton class ) which is expected to make its first flight this month seems to be on track. According to HAL projections, the LUH would complete flight certification by mid-2017 and enter production by the year-end. HAL is required to provide 187 LUH’s in the overall requirement of 400 plus by the Armed Forces in this category – these will be built at HAL’s new facility at Tumkur, where the foundation stone was laid by the Prime Minister in January this year. It is important to note that the HAL’s main focus remains the LUH and LCH projects with the LCH slated to enter service by end of this year. The HAL is also expected to ensure that it meets the Prime Ministers directive to roll out the first LUH by end of 2017. The success of the LUH programme in the timeframe envisaged above, may ring the death knell for the Ka-226T, if no headway is made for negotiating the contract by end of this year. The Government needs to simultaneously keep the RSH programme also going forward to cater for inordinate delays and bottlenecks in the Ka-226T project. In addition HAL’s helicopter division is also fully involved in meeting its current and future obligations to the Services in terms of a large orders for additional ALHs and Rudras, while simultaneously addressing their critical maintenance and serviceability issues. It is crystal clear from the above that HAL’s Helicopter Division has already bitten more than it can chew and therefore will it have the commitment and time to fulfil its obligations towards the Crucial Ka-226T programme. With the current dismal state of the Chetak and Cheetah fleet and serious maintenance and safety concerns, the writing is clearly on the wall. The maintenance of this fleet has now become a nightmare. As per reports a major fallout of this situation has been fewer volunteers opting for the Army Aviation Corps, an elite arm of the Indian Army. In fact in an article in ‘India Today’ last year some of the wives of the army aviator’s had expressed their concern over the safety of their husbands continuing to fly these outdated machines – some even going to the extent of calling them ‘flying coffins’. There is understandable disquiet on this matter within India’s military aviation fraternity which needs to be taken serious note of, as this gravely impinges on operational preparedness. The Ka-226T is a good platform and has already been through trials in India along with Airbus’ AS 550 C3 Fennec. The Government must work with the Russian Government in a time bound manner in resolving all issues howsoever complex and sign the contract by the end of this year or else it will be another critical defence deal gone awry.

    http://idrw.org/light-helicopter-replacement-confusion-prevails/ .
     
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  10. Yumdoot

    Yumdoot Regular Member

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    I think some of you are not being honest. :)

    Ka-226T is heads and shoulders above its competition. The only time it would look bad to you is when you look at its combat support capability. For this later task which is going to be secondary only the LUH will beat all competition in future.

    The single rotors are all wasting too much power on the tail rotor. So much so that despite the Ka-226T being under-powered compared to the competition, it still manages to fly higher. Though I do expect the LUH to be even better for high alti.

    Coaxial benefit is so great that despite the lower power to weight ratio the Ka-226T supports a massive 13 meter diameter rotor that too with two rotors. AS550 and Bell 407 are well under 11 meters single rotor. Ka-226T is just a different way of flying.

    Then there is the survivability afforded by the 2 engines. The engines BTW can easily be serviced by HAL servicing and overhauling division since the engines are French of the same lineage as the LUH, LCH and ALH. The French engines on Ka-226T are have three power output settings - take off, cruise, emergency. On emergency power the Ka-226T will land even if one of its engines is hit by a Stinger. No such option with single engined helos. Then these French engines show marked improvement on their own ruggedness. Starts faster, tolerates different fuel mixes. The Russians have acted wisely by opting for the French engine instead of Brit or American engines or wasting time developing one for the Ka-226T.

    Then there is the advantage of multiple types of payloads that Ka-226T can carry. For example you can never carry any payload whose volume characterstics do not confirm absolutely to the cabin dimensions of the competing helos. With Ka-226T you can simply take out the whole payload cabin and put say a long pole across the helo. The way the piping on this crop-duster version passes right through and across the breadth of the helo.

    [​IMG]

    Then there is the benefit of having more space for the medevac version. Ka-226T has mutiple versions of cabins for medevac. I am damn sure you can easily evacuate 2 litter plus 1 sitting casualty alongwith 2 medical support people, should you design a cabin for the purpose.

    The medevac version for the single engined light utility helos is so cramped that it would make one laugh at the very idea of having one. Look how it works in Bell-407GT. The soldier will have to change from the first stretcher in which he is brought to the evacuation point onto the articulated stretcher in the helo. This has to be done outside the helo. :) Then the whole stretcher with the soldier will be swinged around and parked right over one of the passenger seats. :biggrin2:. This is not all, after this the casualty will have his feet inside the pilot's cabin. So kiss your second pilot good bye.:hail:. This is still not complete. The casualty will have all manner of things hanging over him. :pound:. This is still not complete. After this the medical caregiver MUST seat at the head of the casualty. For Ka-226T the caregiver can move around the aisle. So for Ka-226T you can even think of high density evacuation with just one caregiver. Something not possible with the single engined lighter ulility helos. In fact the LUH will also not be able to deal with this.


    [​IMG]

    Ka-226T also can be designed with auto rotor folding mechanism.

    The ground clearance for Ka-226T is stupendous and completely non-obstructive to anything.

    Russians have truly designed a real light utility helo.

    My guess is the Ka-226T will find use with all three branches, while the LUH will not be used by Indian Navy. Indian Army would however make good use of some higher numbers of LUH for very high altitude medevac. For very high alti. off course the LUH is going to beat all other. I guess they will ultimately produce close to 300 Ka-226T and close to 500 LUH, during the lifetime of the respective production programs.

    Regards the collision of blades, I wonder if anybody has even one case of such a problem. Not asking for theory. Any random fool can crash even the best designed system. But seriously do you have the numbers for tail rotor accidents. Because I do and it seems terrible.

    Notice the form factor edge that Ka-226T has over a representative single engined light utility helo:
    Bell-407GT cabin volume = 2.40 cubic meters
    Ka-226T cabin volume = 5.4 cubic meters
     
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2016
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  11. Yumdoot

    Yumdoot Regular Member

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    Oh and forgot to add, while you load the casualty onto the Bell 407 the right side door of the pilot cabin must be tied up first. Else there is a risk that it will, in inclement weather like Siachin, slam onto the casualty. :scared2:

    No such problem with Ka-226T. Tail side loading also possible for ambulance version.
     
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  12. Zebra

    Zebra Senior Member Senior Member

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    First of all, how many IA's and IAF's, different types of helicopters can get operated in Siachin with full operational load.

    Second, check the images please.

    Tell us how can a pilot cabin's door slam onto casualty.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  13. HariPrasad-1

    HariPrasad-1 Senior Member Senior Member

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    None in the world. Very few cn reach their empty.
     
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  14. Zebra

    Zebra Senior Member Senior Member

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    I know. :biggrin2:

    The point is, if 407 can't go there, then the pilot cabin's door also can't get slam onto the casualty. :wink:
     
  15. Yumdoot

    Yumdoot Regular Member

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    @Zebra
    Yaar tum american trained people, what rock do you, crawl from under.

    Even Cheetal goes to Siachin. That is why the inspiration for ALH which does roaring business in Siachin.

    http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...-fly-high/articleshow/2437840.cms?referral=PM
    Obviously if you are three guys then all three cannot be 'first' unless all three are in it together. I doubt if it will make sense to you but - that implies that the ALH was carrying 3 people at approx. 8400 meters.

    Then the highest post of Sonam at Siachin (21000 ft) was tried with 4 soldiers plus 2 pilots in a 'hot and high condition'.

    The LUH will off course be able to match ALH. Only with lighter loads and much smaller volumes. LUH will probably be doing it with 2 soldiers or one casualty.

    And here's your ambulance variant. I admit I was wrong the pilot side door won't slam onto the casualty only the whole bloody door of rear loading side will :pound: Much comforting indeed.
    http://www.bellhelicopter.com/commercial/bell-407gxp
    [​IMG]

    &

    [​IMG]

    What you are copy-pasting is the militarized version of Bell-407. That is the whole bloody point of having a Ka-226T. You dont have to change the whole helicopter. You just need to change one small ~200 kg cabin to make it a true Utility helicopter.

    And inclement weather is not restricted to only the Siachin in the Himalayas. It is there everywhere in the Himalayas.

    This problem will remain with all single engined utility helicopters. Like again with the H-125 and H-130 here. Single engined can barely manage 1 litter and 1 sitting casualty with only 1 medical staffer. And Bell has the worst layout for medevac version. H-125 & H-130 have at least a clearer layout.
    https://www.airbushelicopters.com/website/en/ref/EMS_56.html

    And Bell 407 really cannot go to Siachin despite it being much better powered compared to its competitors. The service ceiling is around 18000 ft. Sonam post is 21000 ft.

    This is really funny @Zebra the second of your picture can be traced to this site (a helo leasing site for a Dauphin):
    http://www.hlease.co.uk/history/porsche-911-gt3-3-2-2-2-2/photos/

    Had you really been interested in knowing the truth about claimed capabilities you would have checked out better. :devil: Do you want to say anything about it?
     
  16. Yumdoot

    Yumdoot Regular Member

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    Here is the Medevac version of H-125 & H-130. I wish for the LUH, this is the layout chosen by HAL.

    Notice the fully stretched legs of the casualty. Unlike the one above in the Bell 407.
    [​IMG]

    This layout without the overhanging medical equipment will allow much quicker changes. And real changes, not mere chalta hai type compromises. Take out that litter and you can install a machine gun. Take out that machine gun and you can get 3/4 soldiers to sit. Or carry odd shaped load.
     
  17. Zebra

    Zebra Senior Member Senior Member

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    I posted a wrong image. I just took it from google image. :doh:

    But think in other way. :biggrin2:

    It proves that I am not professional and not trained by americans. :wink:

    I am just a layman, nothing more. :dude:

    And in past, at-least three times , I already posted it on DFI that I started my career as an apprentice in one of the famous truck / bus maker company in India. :yo:
     
  18. Jagdish58

    Jagdish58 Regular Member

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    When is first flight of LUH??
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  19. abingdonboy

    abingdonboy Senior Member Senior Member

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    You have that backwards, the clock is ticking on the imported LUH deal to be signed otherwise it could well lose out to the soon to fly HAL LUH.

    There is a total requirement from the IAF and IA for 600 LUH/RSH split 200 (aprox) for the HAL LUH and imported LUH with the remaining 200 unit order awarded to the best performing LUH at a later date.

    This is before even factoring in the CAPFs, loca/state polcie forces and civil demand. The total demand for LUH in India over the next 15 years is easily >1000 units and I think HAL is in a good position to pick up a good share of those order. It is already setting up a plant for churn out the LUH with an installed capacity of >60 units/year (with scope to increase this further I'm sure).

    The IN is not considering the KA-226 T2, I have had this confirmed.

    The problem with the Ka-226 T2 is not neccersarily the product but the simple inability of Russia to fit into the "make in India" policy, they have (weirdly) chosen to tie up with HAL to produce the Ka-226 in India but these talks have yet to produce any light as of yet and a site for a dedicated production line is yet to even be scouted. IMO Russian helicopters/Kamov have chosen the worse possible partner in HAL as there is little incentive for them to promote the Ka-226 T2 over their own product (LUH) that they are fully behind.

    Meanwhile Tata has signed up with BELL to produce the 407 in India and Airbus has signe dup with Mahindra to produce the Panther in India in anticipation of NLUH orders. Both entities that are hungry to enter into the Indian defence industry.

    The market is becoming crowded and the Ka-226 T2 (that remember was NOT the prefered option for the IA/IAF orginally- that eas the Fennec) is at risk of being pushed out.

    First flight will be very soon

    HAL LUH PT-1:
    [​IMG]



    @Gessler
     
  20. Yumdoot

    Yumdoot Regular Member

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    I don't think Ka-226T will eat into LUH share of requirements. One crucial criteria is Capital Cost where LUH will come up at the top. Then another even more crucial criteria is ceiling, where again LUH will be at the top. In fact if anything Ka-226T is under threat from LUH.

    But if you have tracked some of the SAR operations then you will find that use of helicopters exceeds the use of other types of airplanes by a factor of 10 or even more.

    With a C-17 you will at the most do some water carrier duties :p.

    But with Helos the last mile connectivity comes and we must have a robust helo capability both for armed forces and also equally importantly for the civilian sector.
     

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